Yea sorry to say, but this is one of my signs of being poorly educated. Really don’t want to be harsh, and I’m all with you on being accurate and correct with language and expression. But language changes and always has trade offs and with accuracy and comprehension. There’s strictly no reason for a language to distinguish quantitative and qualitative amounts at this level.
And at some point, requiring compliance with rules like this, against the grain of the language’s evolution, becomes pedantry, which, I’m sorry to say, is often the signalling of being educated by those desperate to appear so.
I really hope this doesn’t come off as harsh and rude. It’s definitely useful to have this in the language, if you’re completely on top of it. But from what I’ve seen, even the most educated and smart people can trip on this because it’s just awkwardly unnecessary enough that it doesn’t really matter unless you’re keen to ensure you’re using “proper English”.
Especially in English, which is incredibly idiosyncratic.
I have an English degree so obviously I care about this shit. But I’ve spent enough time in the world to understand that there is more than one kind of education. I know brilliant sofrware programmers who might fuck up less/fewer. They’re not stupid. They have lots of education. I’m an idiot compared to them when it comes to logic and math. I have a friend who’s a master gardener, accomplished photographer, welder, electronics teacher, small business owner, IT technician, and a really good cook. He probably screws up a word here and there. He’s vastly more educated and intelligent than me.
So yeah… we should all just back off on being pedants about grammar and vocabulary rules, just a little bit.
Yep. Especially as there is a lot more than simple “pedantic” grammar rules (or stylistic prescriptions as they so often are) to be “educated” about when it comes to English as a language, good practice for both speaking and writing, and of course language in general.
Good example. Honestly “fewer” is just falling out of use. Slowly, but it’s happening. Businesses never use a 5 letter word when a 4 letter word will do. This has an influence over time.
I don’t take issue with “10 items or less” even though it’s grammatically improper. Mostly because it sounds better or conversationally smoother. My hypocrisy is unbounded.
Like all the other grammatical annoyances discussed in this thread, I suppose it’s not truly a sign of being uneducated. Fewer/Less just bugs me more than the transposition/spellcheck errors. And as was said upthread, “pedantry is often the signalling of being educated by those desperate to appear so.” My formal education didn’t get past community college and I know very well the limits of that. I’m not desparate to appear anything. I just like words, language, turns-of-phrase, etymology, etc.
Using less instead of fewer. Fewer is quantitative, Less is qualitative. Fewer rain drops, less rain.
Yea sorry to say, but this is one of my signs of being poorly educated. Really don’t want to be harsh, and I’m all with you on being accurate and correct with language and expression. But language changes and always has trade offs and with accuracy and comprehension. There’s strictly no reason for a language to distinguish quantitative and qualitative amounts at this level.
And at some point, requiring compliance with rules like this, against the grain of the language’s evolution, becomes pedantry, which, I’m sorry to say, is often the signalling of being educated by those desperate to appear so.
I really hope this doesn’t come off as harsh and rude. It’s definitely useful to have this in the language, if you’re completely on top of it. But from what I’ve seen, even the most educated and smart people can trip on this because it’s just awkwardly unnecessary enough that it doesn’t really matter unless you’re keen to ensure you’re using “proper English”.
Especially in English, which is incredibly idiosyncratic.
I have an English degree so obviously I care about this shit. But I’ve spent enough time in the world to understand that there is more than one kind of education. I know brilliant sofrware programmers who might fuck up less/fewer. They’re not stupid. They have lots of education. I’m an idiot compared to them when it comes to logic and math. I have a friend who’s a master gardener, accomplished photographer, welder, electronics teacher, small business owner, IT technician, and a really good cook. He probably screws up a word here and there. He’s vastly more educated and intelligent than me.
So yeah… we should all just back off on being pedants about grammar and vocabulary rules, just a little bit.
An English major that’s not a dirty prescriptivist?!? I thought it was impossible.
Yep. Especially as there is a lot more than simple “pedantic” grammar rules (or stylistic prescriptions as they so often are) to be “educated” about when it comes to English as a language, good practice for both speaking and writing, and of course language in general.
Gotta ask: do you take issue with “10 items or less” signs?
Good example. Honestly “fewer” is just falling out of use. Slowly, but it’s happening. Businesses never use a 5 letter word when a 4 letter word will do. This has an influence over time.
I don’t take issue with “10 items or less” even though it’s grammatically improper. Mostly because it sounds better or conversationally smoother. My hypocrisy is unbounded.
Like all the other grammatical annoyances discussed in this thread, I suppose it’s not truly a sign of being uneducated. Fewer/Less just bugs me more than the transposition/spellcheck errors. And as was said upthread, “pedantry is often the signalling of being educated by those desperate to appear so.” My formal education didn’t get past community college and I know very well the limits of that. I’m not desparate to appear anything. I just like words, language, turns-of-phrase, etymology, etc.
I don’t agree with this one. The meaning of words change and that’s true of ‘Less’.
I generally don’t agree with these prescriptivist positions though.