Its hard for me to draw a line. In the case of Hitler / Nazis, they were just openly proclaiming it and shouting it from the rooftops so its obviously an easy call.
The level at which the Chinese invoke upon the Uyghur and/or the Russians vs the Ukrainians is sufficient. Both deny the genocide, but large scale forced sterilizations is a specific program designed to prevent births and is obviously genocidal. Russia vs Ukraine is a top-down high-level program to kidnap children, burn Ukrainian books, deny Ukrainian culture, and explicitly filter Ukrainian identity and disperse it. There’s not much killing style genocide (aside from the Ukrainian war / atrocities in Bucha), but this is clearly an intentional program.
So something like that. When I see Israelis specifically doing genocidal actions that have been organized on a mass scale, then it’d reach the level of “Genocide” that I’ve called the Chinese / Russians out on.
but large scale forced sterilizations is a specific program designed to prevent births and is obviously genocidal.
So what about this shows intention for genocide? How does that count as genocide (intention included) but the bombing of civilian areas comprising ~50% children does not? One is the act of preventing an ethnic group from breeding, the second is much the same just delayed a number of years after conception. You can’t breed if the state sterilized you, and you can’t breed if your children don’t make it past childhood because the state killed them. This is only made worse by the fact that bombing children is far more violent than forced sterilizations.
Does the large scale “program” as you put it, to force Palestinians from their homes not factor into this? What about Israel shutting off water and food for millions of people?
Russia vs Ukraine is a top-down high-level program to kidnap children, burn Ukrainian books, deny Ukrainian culture, and explicitly filter Ukrainian identity and disperse it.
How does that count as genocide (intention included) but the bombing of civilian areas comprising ~50% children does not?
Because historically speaking, mass bombing campaigns has never been considered a genocide.
but shutting off food and water to millions of civilians does not?
The issue at play here is that Hamas was incredibly shitty with the planning of their food security. There’s no requirement for two warring parties to be forced to feed their enemy. The issue at hand is that Hamas set up Gaza to become reliant upon Israel for both food and water (instead of say, Egypt, or other such potential partners in the region). When Hamas attacks Israel, Israel is in the right to shut off the food and water and fuel and electricity, because there’s no requirement to feed the enemy (excluding POWs or such situations you know what I mean).
In this case, its ambiguous because Israel continues to keep the aid deliveries open. Israel isn’t in charge of food anymore (and they shouldn’t be, and they never should have been to begin with). Its not like Siege of Lenningrad where all food aid was cut off entirely and the food aid was explicitly choked off / prevented from entering Leningrad.
Egypt and other parties are 100% allowed (and protected by Israel) to ship food to the south. That’s not what a genocide looks like. Historically, you can look at actual events of history (ex: Siege of Leningrad) if you want to see what a starvation tactic actually looks like.
Because historically speaking, mass bombing campaigns has never been considered a genocide.
Why? I’m trying to ask you what is the fundamental difference.
Why is forced sterilization considered genocide, but the intentional killing of children not?
The issue at play here is that Hamas was incredibly shitty with the planning of their food security
Everybody can play the blame game. That doesn’t mean Israel should get a free pass for shutting off the water in areas they occupy, or for preventing food aid from arriving. They are aware that doing so will lead to civilian deaths, and will force them from their homes.
Also, see the above links, I edited my comment to add additional support for the comparison to Russia’s actions against Ukraine.
Why? I’m trying to ask you what is the fundamental difference.
Intent. We can kill a million in Tokyo and many of them civilians through the use of firebombs explicitly designed to spread fires across wooden structures that the Japanese were known for in the 1940s. But if we’re not “intending” to erase the Japanese off the face of the earth, then its not a Genocide.
Why is forced sterilization considered genocide, but the intentional killing of children not?
Intentional killing is “just” murder. For it to rise to the level of genocide is for the intent to be beyond just “intentional”. It needs to be “Intending to wipe out the people and destroy them entirely”.
Now you and I can agree that murder is bad. In fact, I can agree with you that murder is bad. But a ton of murder, or even thousands or tens of thousands of cases of murder is not yet a genocide. Genocide is a word reserved for a horrible ethical crime beyond even just “Tens-of-thousands murdered”.
I am aware you are saying intent is required. I am asking how can you come to the conclusion that:
Forced sterilizations
Killing of children en mass
Only one of these has clear intention, while the other does not?
In case you missed it, going to copy and paste from earlier:
Russia vs Ukraine is a top-down high-level program to kidnap children, burn Ukrainian books, deny Ukrainian culture, and explicitly filter Ukrainian identity and disperse it.
Only one of these has clear intention, while the other does not?
Because in one of them, its a government program that puts people into camps controlled by Chinese officials. Those officials then sterilize them one-by-one, systematically and comprehensively erasing the population from existence.
The “killing of children” you’re talking about is a bomb dropped from an airplane. There’s no system or intent, or order, or exhaustive attempt at actually trying to kill everyone here. And your attempts to prove me otherwise are incredibly wishy-washy.
There’s no system or intent, or order, or exhaustive attempt at actually trying to kill everyone here.
A large scale effort to drop bombs on a civilian population that is ~50% minors is not systematic or intentional? You’re being deliberately obtuse.
In case you missed it, going to copy and paste from earlier:
Russia vs Ukraine is a top-down high-level program to kidnap children, burn Ukrainian books, deny Ukrainian culture, and explicitly filter Ukrainian identity and disperse it.
A large scale effort to drop bombs on a civilian population that is ~50% minors is not systematic or intentional? You’re being deliberately obtuse.
No. Bombing campaigns are famously expensive and ineffective with regards to actually killing people. I’m serious. There’s a reason why Hitler used filtration camps and mustard gas. There’s a reason why the Chinese use forced sterilization programs. These programs are cheaper, more efficient, and more effective at genocide.
Your attempts at making the two equivalent are laughable. Airplanes are so, so, so very expensive. Doubly so when they’re filled with expensive bombs. There’s so many cheaper ways of actually and systematically erasing a population.
Its hard for me to draw a line. In the case of Hitler / Nazis, they were just openly proclaiming it and shouting it from the rooftops so its obviously an easy call.
The level at which the Chinese invoke upon the Uyghur and/or the Russians vs the Ukrainians is sufficient. Both deny the genocide, but large scale forced sterilizations is a specific program designed to prevent births and is obviously genocidal. Russia vs Ukraine is a top-down high-level program to kidnap children, burn Ukrainian books, deny Ukrainian culture, and explicitly filter Ukrainian identity and disperse it. There’s not much killing style genocide (aside from the Ukrainian war / atrocities in Bucha), but this is clearly an intentional program.
So something like that. When I see Israelis specifically doing genocidal actions that have been organized on a mass scale, then it’d reach the level of “Genocide” that I’ve called the Chinese / Russians out on.
So what about this shows intention for genocide? How does that count as genocide (intention included) but the bombing of civilian areas comprising ~50% children does not? One is the act of preventing an ethnic group from breeding, the second is much the same just delayed a number of years after conception. You can’t breed if the state sterilized you, and you can’t breed if your children don’t make it past childhood because the state killed them. This is only made worse by the fact that bombing children is far more violent than forced sterilizations.
Does the large scale “program” as you put it, to force Palestinians from their homes not factor into this? What about Israel shutting off water and food for millions of people?
https://time.com/6548068/palestinian-children-israeli-prison-arrested/
https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/time/
https://www.npr.org/2023/12/03/1216200754/gaza-heritage-sites-destroyed-israel
https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/npr/
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/11/30/gaza-library-palestinian-culture/
https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/washington-post/
The scale is not the same here at least in part due to the difference in size between Ukraine and Palestine. But the similarity is clear.
Because historically speaking, mass bombing campaigns has never been considered a genocide.
The issue at play here is that Hamas was incredibly shitty with the planning of their food security. There’s no requirement for two warring parties to be forced to feed their enemy. The issue at hand is that Hamas set up Gaza to become reliant upon Israel for both food and water (instead of say, Egypt, or other such potential partners in the region). When Hamas attacks Israel, Israel is in the right to shut off the food and water and fuel and electricity, because there’s no requirement to feed the enemy (excluding POWs or such situations you know what I mean).
In this case, its ambiguous because Israel continues to keep the aid deliveries open. Israel isn’t in charge of food anymore (and they shouldn’t be, and they never should have been to begin with). Its not like Siege of Lenningrad where all food aid was cut off entirely and the food aid was explicitly choked off / prevented from entering Leningrad.
Egypt and other parties are 100% allowed (and protected by Israel) to ship food to the south. That’s not what a genocide looks like. Historically, you can look at actual events of history (ex: Siege of Leningrad) if you want to see what a starvation tactic actually looks like.
Why? I’m trying to ask you what is the fundamental difference.
Why is forced sterilization considered genocide, but the intentional killing of children not?
Everybody can play the blame game. That doesn’t mean Israel should get a free pass for shutting off the water in areas they occupy, or for preventing food aid from arriving. They are aware that doing so will lead to civilian deaths, and will force them from their homes.
Also, see the above links, I edited my comment to add additional support for the comparison to Russia’s actions against Ukraine.
Intent. We can kill a million in Tokyo and many of them civilians through the use of firebombs explicitly designed to spread fires across wooden structures that the Japanese were known for in the 1940s. But if we’re not “intending” to erase the Japanese off the face of the earth, then its not a Genocide.
Intentional killing is “just” murder. For it to rise to the level of genocide is for the intent to be beyond just “intentional”. It needs to be “Intending to wipe out the people and destroy them entirely”.
Now you and I can agree that murder is bad. In fact, I can agree with you that murder is bad. But a ton of murder, or even thousands or tens of thousands of cases of murder is not yet a genocide. Genocide is a word reserved for a horrible ethical crime beyond even just “Tens-of-thousands murdered”.
I am aware you are saying intent is required. I am asking how can you come to the conclusion that:
Only one of these has clear intention, while the other does not?
In case you missed it, going to copy and paste from earlier:
https://time.com/6548068/palestinian-children-israeli-prison-arrested/
https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/time/
https://www.npr.org/2023/12/03/1216200754/gaza-heritage-sites-destroyed-israel
https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/npr/
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/11/30/gaza-library-palestinian-culture/
https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/washington-post/
The scale is not the same here at least in part due to the difference in size between Ukraine and Palestine. But the similarity is clear.
Because in one of them, its a government program that puts people into camps controlled by Chinese officials. Those officials then sterilize them one-by-one, systematically and comprehensively erasing the population from existence.
The “killing of children” you’re talking about is a bomb dropped from an airplane. There’s no system or intent, or order, or exhaustive attempt at actually trying to kill everyone here. And your attempts to prove me otherwise are incredibly wishy-washy.
A large scale effort to drop bombs on a civilian population that is ~50% minors is not systematic or intentional? You’re being deliberately obtuse.
In case you missed it, going to copy and paste from earlier:
https://time.com/6548068/palestinian-children-israeli-prison-arrested/
https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/time/
https://www.npr.org/2023/12/03/1216200754/gaza-heritage-sites-destroyed-israel
https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/npr/
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/11/30/gaza-library-palestinian-culture/
https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/washington-post/
The scale is not the same here at least in part due to the difference in size between Ukraine and Palestine. But the similarity is clear.
No. Bombing campaigns are famously expensive and ineffective with regards to actually killing people. I’m serious. There’s a reason why Hitler used filtration camps and mustard gas. There’s a reason why the Chinese use forced sterilization programs. These programs are cheaper, more efficient, and more effective at genocide.
Your attempts at making the two equivalent are laughable. Airplanes are so, so, so very expensive. Doubly so when they’re filled with expensive bombs. There’s so many cheaper ways of actually and systematically erasing a population.