Why? I’m trying to ask you what is the fundamental difference.
Intent. We can kill a million in Tokyo and many of them civilians through the use of firebombs explicitly designed to spread fires across wooden structures that the Japanese were known for in the 1940s. But if we’re not “intending” to erase the Japanese off the face of the earth, then its not a Genocide.
Why is forced sterilization considered genocide, but the intentional killing of children not?
Intentional killing is “just” murder. For it to rise to the level of genocide is for the intent to be beyond just “intentional”. It needs to be “Intending to wipe out the people and destroy them entirely”.
Now you and I can agree that murder is bad. In fact, I can agree with you that murder is bad. But a ton of murder, or even thousands or tens of thousands of cases of murder is not yet a genocide. Genocide is a word reserved for a horrible ethical crime beyond even just “Tens-of-thousands murdered”.
I am aware you are saying intent is required. I am asking how can you come to the conclusion that:
Forced sterilizations
Killing of children en mass
Only one of these has clear intention, while the other does not?
In case you missed it, going to copy and paste from earlier:
Russia vs Ukraine is a top-down high-level program to kidnap children, burn Ukrainian books, deny Ukrainian culture, and explicitly filter Ukrainian identity and disperse it.
Only one of these has clear intention, while the other does not?
Because in one of them, its a government program that puts people into camps controlled by Chinese officials. Those officials then sterilize them one-by-one, systematically and comprehensively erasing the population from existence.
The “killing of children” you’re talking about is a bomb dropped from an airplane. There’s no system or intent, or order, or exhaustive attempt at actually trying to kill everyone here. And your attempts to prove me otherwise are incredibly wishy-washy.
There’s no system or intent, or order, or exhaustive attempt at actually trying to kill everyone here.
A large scale effort to drop bombs on a civilian population that is ~50% minors is not systematic or intentional? You’re being deliberately obtuse.
In case you missed it, going to copy and paste from earlier:
Russia vs Ukraine is a top-down high-level program to kidnap children, burn Ukrainian books, deny Ukrainian culture, and explicitly filter Ukrainian identity and disperse it.
A large scale effort to drop bombs on a civilian population that is ~50% minors is not systematic or intentional? You’re being deliberately obtuse.
No. Bombing campaigns are famously expensive and ineffective with regards to actually killing people. I’m serious. There’s a reason why Hitler used filtration camps and mustard gas. There’s a reason why the Chinese use forced sterilization programs. These programs are cheaper, more efficient, and more effective at genocide.
Your attempts at making the two equivalent are laughable. Airplanes are so, so, so very expensive. Doubly so when they’re filled with expensive bombs. There’s so many cheaper ways of actually and systematically erasing a population.
In case you missed it, going to copy and paste from earlier:
Russia vs Ukraine is a top-down high-level program to kidnap children, burn Ukrainian books, deny Ukrainian culture, and explicitly filter Ukrainian identity and disperse it.
Oh, Israel is taking Palestinian children and forcing them to become adopted under Israeli parents, who then force them to learn Hebrew and turn away from Islam?
Because that’s what Russia is doing to Ukrainian children in these genocidal programs (conversion into Russian Eastern Orthodoxy. Forcing the children to learn Russian, getting rid of Ukrainian history books, building new schools explicitly designed to make the children forget their original culture, etc. etc.). There’s no similarity man. I’m ignoring that article because its clearly a misunderstanding of the issues at play here.
No. Bombing campaigns are famously expensive and ineffective with regards to actually killing people. I’m serious. There’s a reason why Hitler used filtration camps and mustard gas. There’s a reason why the Chinese use forced sterilization programs. These programs are cheaper, more efficient, and more effective at genocide.
The difference is, Israel relies on receiving billions of dollars from foreign nations to support itself and this war. If they were to do such things, they would likely lose a lot of that support. So they need to have plausible deniability.
“Article 2 of the Convention defines genocide as any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, as such:”
Killing members of the group; - They’ve done plenty of this
Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; - They’ve done plenty of this
Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; - See above statements on forcing civilians from their homes, destruction of residences, prevention of food and water
Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; - See my above statements explaining the similarity
Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group. - Already explained to you
A genocide is a genocide even if the destruction is only partial. Only one of these is needed to define a genocide under the genocide convention, and Israel is very nearly doing all five.
Oh, Israel is taking Palestinian children and forcing them to become adopted under Israeli parents, who then force them to learn Hebrew and turn away from Islam?
You are adding on extra qualifications when I already proved similarity. You are moving the goal posts.
Intent. We can kill a million in Tokyo and many of them civilians through the use of firebombs explicitly designed to spread fires across wooden structures that the Japanese were known for in the 1940s. But if we’re not “intending” to erase the Japanese off the face of the earth, then its not a Genocide.
Intentional killing is “just” murder. For it to rise to the level of genocide is for the intent to be beyond just “intentional”. It needs to be “Intending to wipe out the people and destroy them entirely”.
Now you and I can agree that murder is bad. In fact, I can agree with you that murder is bad. But a ton of murder, or even thousands or tens of thousands of cases of murder is not yet a genocide. Genocide is a word reserved for a horrible ethical crime beyond even just “Tens-of-thousands murdered”.
I am aware you are saying intent is required. I am asking how can you come to the conclusion that:
Only one of these has clear intention, while the other does not?
In case you missed it, going to copy and paste from earlier:
https://time.com/6548068/palestinian-children-israeli-prison-arrested/
https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/time/
https://www.npr.org/2023/12/03/1216200754/gaza-heritage-sites-destroyed-israel
https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/npr/
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/11/30/gaza-library-palestinian-culture/
https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/washington-post/
The scale is not the same here at least in part due to the difference in size between Ukraine and Palestine. But the similarity is clear.
Because in one of them, its a government program that puts people into camps controlled by Chinese officials. Those officials then sterilize them one-by-one, systematically and comprehensively erasing the population from existence.
The “killing of children” you’re talking about is a bomb dropped from an airplane. There’s no system or intent, or order, or exhaustive attempt at actually trying to kill everyone here. And your attempts to prove me otherwise are incredibly wishy-washy.
A large scale effort to drop bombs on a civilian population that is ~50% minors is not systematic or intentional? You’re being deliberately obtuse.
In case you missed it, going to copy and paste from earlier:
https://time.com/6548068/palestinian-children-israeli-prison-arrested/
https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/time/
https://www.npr.org/2023/12/03/1216200754/gaza-heritage-sites-destroyed-israel
https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/npr/
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/11/30/gaza-library-palestinian-culture/
https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/washington-post/
The scale is not the same here at least in part due to the difference in size between Ukraine and Palestine. But the similarity is clear.
No. Bombing campaigns are famously expensive and ineffective with regards to actually killing people. I’m serious. There’s a reason why Hitler used filtration camps and mustard gas. There’s a reason why the Chinese use forced sterilization programs. These programs are cheaper, more efficient, and more effective at genocide.
Your attempts at making the two equivalent are laughable. Airplanes are so, so, so very expensive. Doubly so when they’re filled with expensive bombs. There’s so many cheaper ways of actually and systematically erasing a population.
In case you missed it, going to copy and paste from earlier:
https://time.com/6548068/palestinian-children-israeli-prison-arrested/
https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/time/
https://www.npr.org/2023/12/03/1216200754/gaza-heritage-sites-destroyed-israel
https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/npr/
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/11/30/gaza-library-palestinian-culture/
https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/washington-post/
The scale is not the same here at least in part due to the difference in size between Ukraine and Palestine. But the similarity is clear.
Oh, Israel is taking Palestinian children and forcing them to become adopted under Israeli parents, who then force them to learn Hebrew and turn away from Islam?
Because that’s what Russia is doing to Ukrainian children in these genocidal programs (conversion into Russian Eastern Orthodoxy. Forcing the children to learn Russian, getting rid of Ukrainian history books, building new schools explicitly designed to make the children forget their original culture, etc. etc.). There’s no similarity man. I’m ignoring that article because its clearly a misunderstanding of the issues at play here.
The difference is, Israel relies on receiving billions of dollars from foreign nations to support itself and this war. If they were to do such things, they would likely lose a lot of that support. So they need to have plausible deniability.
And you’re feeding into that.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide_Convention#Definition_of_genocide
“Article 2 of the Convention defines genocide as any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, as such:”
A genocide is a genocide even if the destruction is only partial. Only one of these is needed to define a genocide under the genocide convention, and Israel is very nearly doing all five.
You are adding on extra qualifications when I already proved similarity. You are moving the goal posts.
Have a good day.
You keep ignoring the “intent” part, despite quoting it.
Have a good day as well. I don’t expect that you’ll make much progress on the “Intent” portion of this debate here on out.