The Bundeswehr is facing a dramatic shortage in personnel. Now Defense Minister Boris Pistorius has rekindled the debate over reintroducing conscription.
the system for who is required to participate has practically never been fair and equitable, jury duty is not comparable to military service, and forced labour is slavery
civil jury duty is a really weird example to use anyway, since civil jury trials are practically non existent outside the USA
The issue is you’re confusing compulsory labour with forced labour.
If you don’t do conscription or civil service work (the alternative option) the consequences are a fine, or jail.
This is the same as eg refusing jury duty or not doing your taxes.
Having compulsory civil duties is not new, nor is it slavery. In countries at high risk of conflict (eg Taiwan), it’s practically required for their continued short-term existence.
I’m not even pro-conscription (for my own nation at this time), but “conscription is slavery” is so reductive, and just stops people discussing the actual pros and cons of the practice.
I do not see compulsory military service as forced labour, not by a long shot.
In my country when a man turns 18, he has to choose either military service (6 months for rank and file, 9 months for specialists or 12 months for specialist drivers and NCO and officer trainees) or civil service (13 months). Third and very seldomly used option is “total denial”, which means you get to spend 6 months in an open jail.
I very reluctantly chose military service, hoping to get the shortest 6 month option. I ended up serving 12 months in the reserve officer training program, so I do have some experience on the matter.
The population of my country is so small that an army based on professional or voluntary troops is not a possibility. Conscription is the only viable choice.
The service was rarely fun, but it was very effective and extremely valuable. The personal growth I experienced during that year was immeasurable and one year of my life is a very small price to pay to this country that my grandparents’ generation paid a very heavy toll to protect. A country that offers equal rights, universal healthcare and free education for all citizens, amongst many other tax-paid services.
If you do not see your own country worth serving, I feel sad for you. I would gladly give my life to protect mine.
performing labour or 6 months of jail does sound completely unforced
Forced labour is very different to military training, IMO. Your choices and freedom are restricted - that cannot be denied - but your days are filled with different training excersizes, not labour as I understand it. And I’ve had my fair share of that too, but by my own choice.
i said nothing about whether i see my own country as worth serving, but your pity is appreciated
True. Your earlier statement was ambiguous concerning this. This is why I started the sentence with “if”.
and youll continue to have the option to do so regardless of whether your government continues to threaten its citizens into doing so
Also true. But if I had to defend my country, the most effective way to do it would be as a part of a trained and coordinated effort, not as some loner seeking a Hollywood - style “heroic sacrifice”.
forced labour is slavery
maybe folks would sign up to protect their country if they thought it deserved to be protected, or was doing anything for them
Do you say the same about jury duty?
In my opinion, as long as the system for who is required to participate is fair and equitable, then it’s fair to consider it a civil duty.
the system for who is required to participate has practically never been fair and equitable, jury duty is not comparable to military service, and forced labour is slavery
civil jury duty is a really weird example to use anyway, since civil jury trials are practically non existent outside the USA
I didn’t say civil jury duty (I assume you mean for civil trials by that)
I said jury duty, which is a civil duty.
Soooo… sometimes.
Jury duty is also compulsory labour.
ok
So you’re just doubling down on jury duty is slavery instead of considering a nuanced perspective?
Edit: autocorrect
im assuming you mean nuanced
me not agreeing with you doesnt mean i didnt consider your perspective, and saying ‘well surely not all forced labour is slavery’ isnt nuance
The issue is you’re confusing compulsory labour with forced labour.
If you don’t do conscription or civil service work (the alternative option) the consequences are a fine, or jail. This is the same as eg refusing jury duty or not doing your taxes.
Having compulsory civil duties is not new, nor is it slavery. In countries at high risk of conflict (eg Taiwan), it’s practically required for their continued short-term existence.
I’m not even pro-conscription (for my own nation at this time), but “conscription is slavery” is so reductive, and just stops people discussing the actual pros and cons of the practice.
seems like a you problem, what with you talking about compulsory labour while i explicitly said forced labour
“youre not forced to do it, you just get tossed in jail if you dont do it”
if a country can only motivate its people to actually protect said country by threatening them into doing so, it didnt actually deserve protection
good, i do not want people discussing the actual pros of slavery
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I do not see compulsory military service as forced labour, not by a long shot.
In my country when a man turns 18, he has to choose either military service (6 months for rank and file, 9 months for specialists or 12 months for specialist drivers and NCO and officer trainees) or civil service (13 months). Third and very seldomly used option is “total denial”, which means you get to spend 6 months in an open jail.
I very reluctantly chose military service, hoping to get the shortest 6 month option. I ended up serving 12 months in the reserve officer training program, so I do have some experience on the matter.
The population of my country is so small that an army based on professional or voluntary troops is not a possibility. Conscription is the only viable choice.
The service was rarely fun, but it was very effective and extremely valuable. The personal growth I experienced during that year was immeasurable and one year of my life is a very small price to pay to this country that my grandparents’ generation paid a very heavy toll to protect. A country that offers equal rights, universal healthcare and free education for all citizens, amongst many other tax-paid services.
If you do not see your own country worth serving, I feel sad for you. I would gladly give my life to protect mine.
performing labour or 6 months of jail does sound completely unforced
i am so glad that you have all of that
i said nothing about whether i see my own country as worth serving, but your pity is appreciated
and youll continue to have the option to do so regardless of whether your government continues to threaten its citizens into doing so
Forced labour is very different to military training, IMO. Your choices and freedom are restricted - that cannot be denied - but your days are filled with different training excersizes, not labour as I understand it. And I’ve had my fair share of that too, but by my own choice.
True. Your earlier statement was ambiguous concerning this. This is why I started the sentence with “if”.
Also true. But if I had to defend my country, the most effective way to do it would be as a part of a trained and coordinated effort, not as some loner seeking a Hollywood - style “heroic sacrifice”.
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Could you elaborate on this line of thought?
I cannot tell if you are suggesting a professional standing army or something else entirely.