I have to be honest, since you’ve been posting all these sovcit caps, I’m very surprised how many of them are Black. I really thought this was primarily a white idiot thing. I didn’t know how many non-white people were getting swept up in it.
That makes sense. My shallow knowledge of Hawaiian history can be summarized with “they got fucked”. Can’t blame them for not wanting to participate in the overtaking government.
For all the information in that article I am surprised they completely ignored the actual factual basis for their belief. The famous Dred Scott v. Sandford has never been actually overturned, the common legal view is that it was abrogated by the 14th Amendment. The 14th amendment only applies to those subject to the jurisdiction of the United States and as such a representative of a foreign entity nor their children would not qualify relevant USCIS guidelines for those children. Descendants of the Moors, a hard to define group dispersed worldwide, and Hawaiians, the Hawaiian Kingdom being overthrown by US mainland farmers on the island, could claim allegiance to their original sovereign. Technically this would mean that not only does the 14th amendment not apply but Dred Scott baring citizenship to non-whites would apply. It is a view many Jurists have actually expressed see dissent of UNITED STATES v. WONG KIM ARK and would serve as basis for the more out there claims. In such a scenario a person becomes merely property and their only way to legally engage in living is to be a corporation (ala citizens united) that is auto-protected by a corporate veil (shielding liability). This stuff is definitely fringe but not crazy, I look at it as people confronting the system and demanding either America overturning many troubled past transgressions or give them the benefit of the disparate treatment. The surprised pikachu comes in when the Jurist decides to split the difference and deny both forms of relief.
This stuff is definitely fringe but not crazy, I look at it as people confronting the system and demanding either America overturning many troubled past transgressions or give them the benefit of the disparate treatment.
Disagree there, it’s definitely crazy. If you’re starting to think this stuff makes actual sense and (more importantly) that you want to start testing the legal system using it, I suggest you seek some help from a mental health professional instead.
If you read the sources or even my closing line, I specifically disclaimed it’s usage, but at the end of the day the position was defeated 6-2 at the supreme court, with the two in dissent wholly agreeing with the argument put forth. Essentially arguing this in good faith would be no different than seeking an appeal or rehearing in other cases. It is the equivalent of calling everyone who tried to overturn Roe v Wade (a 7-2 decision) crazy because they lost one case. Some would argue the side against Roe is winning right now, so maybe its not even a safe bet to say nonwhites aren’t automatically citizens by birth.
It is the equivalent of calling everyone who tried to overturn Roe v Wade (a 7-2 decision) crazy because they lost one case.
I wouldn’t call them crazy because they lost one case, but rather because they believe that a cluster of cells is a person. But that’s getting off topic, because most of the legal “theories” behind sovcit have been thoroughly adjudicated and found to be entirely baseless.
People always hear about the white fringe/crazies/cults but its not like every other racial group is immune. From the the one you mentioned to the Black Hebrew Israelites to Jesus Morning Star (Korea) to Sanatan Sanstha (India) theres culty shenanigans all over the world.
Going to word this very carefully so it doesn’t come off wrong. I was only slightly aware of the movement in general. Then I read about it being common for these individuals to be men trying to avoid childcare payments. And then it clicked why it seems to be mostly men in general and very few women. Many of the men seeming to be in the 20-40 age range.
I’m not sure how it started off. Lately seems more about avoidance of responsibility. Instead of the weirdo libertarian movement I was assuming was going on. But ultimately I kinda don’t think that’s important. It’s just sad.
It actually has roots in the white supremacist ‘religion’ that is called Christian Identity dating back to 1971, which is still active today as well. In the 1990s the Moorish Science Temple began having an offshoot of sovcits among their members. There is also a Hawaiian sovcit movement.
Interesting! Out of curiosity, you obviously have a trove of these posts from communities…are you just a whacko connoisseur? Or does the sovcit movement specifically interest you? Were you ever a part of it? How do you know so much about it?
So I am interested in right wing extremists in general; I maintain a Facebook alt simply for the purpose of infiltrating white supremacists (and getting them in trouble and getting their accounts deleted-even reported two Capitol rioters). Sovereign citizens are an offshoot of that interest, but they’re mostly just funny to me because they’re so ridiculous, although I do think they’re somewhat dangerous to their children if nothing else. The ADL does some sovereign citizen work and I find it very interesting, and the ADL researcher Mark Pitcavage maintains a special interest in sovereign citizens which is what got me into them. I recommend his Twitter as well as that of Dr Christine Sarteschi who has written a book about sovereign citizens.
My big interest is the rise of Christian Identity ideology among young white supremacists, it’s something researchers are just really starting to take notice of, and I supply journalists and researchers information as well. I think CI is what’s causing younger white supremacist groups like Patriot Front to attract members and also to what’s called the trad life movement.
I am a lefty antifascist from cradle to grave, and have never had association with anyone on the right in any form, I think they’re all dumber than a bag of hammers. I spend immense amounts of time immersed in these strange worlds and I’ve only become more repelled by their beliefs over the last five years.
IMO it’s less of a political movement and more of a cult. These people are being completely misled by others, in a way they’re victims.
It’s one thing to feel the world should be a certain way. It’s another to think there’s some magic phrase you can put on your car’s bumper to be immune from prosecution, but no one else knows the secret.
I think it also feeds their need to feel special. They are in the super secret club that knows the passwords and all these stupid sheeple are getting played.
It does seem that way now. It was political at first. But economic downturns and the internet seem likely reasons behind why it’s spreading. Desperate people doing desperate things. While being led by crazy people.
Now we don’t have stats of SovCit by skin colour, but if it truly tends to be men trying to dodge childcare payments then it seems realistic that there would be a surprising number of black men (even if the movement tends to be associated with people leaning right) considering that a higher % of black families are raised by a single mother…
I’ve read this is still pretty niche. Might not be enough examples to make any accurate analysis.
But I have to assume in times the economy gets worse for ordinary people that extra bit of desperation leads some to hope for this kind of bunk to be the answer.
It’s pretty heavily tied to the right wing/white nationalist movement. That was my understanding, anyway. And there is a sort of…stereotype of the kind of person who buys into it. Terminally online, uneducated, angry white people. Upset over the smallest perceived inconvenience. It’s a white rage thing. People of color, again, sort of stereotypically, know that while there are problems with the government and their power/exercise of it, that there are real problems to deal with. The stuff that seems to piss off the terminally online right wing white people are usually very small, very stupid things.
I’m also surprised by how many black people have bought into this. Primarily because most non-white people should know that if you piss cops off for any reason, right or wrong, you’re gonna have a bad time. They really, really don’t give a shit about your roadside lawyering and some cops will absolutely fuck you up, both physically and legally if they’re in the mood. A little bit of “resisting arrest,” a planted firearm and contraband, you’re going to prison. They won’t even feel bad about it because they’ll justify it as “getting a bad guy off the streets.”
I have to be honest, since you’ve been posting all these sovcit caps, I’m very surprised how many of them are Black. I really thought this was primarily a white idiot thing. I didn’t know how many non-white people were getting swept up in it.
Do you know of the Moorish Science Temple? A LOT of black sovcits come from that.
https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/group/moorish-sovereign-citizens
Thanks for posting. That’s fascinating. Had no idea there were multiple subcultures within this mess.
There’s a Hawaiian sovcit movement too!
That makes sense. My shallow knowledge of Hawaiian history can be summarized with “they got fucked”. Can’t blame them for not wanting to participate in the overtaking government.
For all the information in that article I am surprised they completely ignored the actual factual basis for their belief. The famous Dred Scott v. Sandford has never been actually overturned, the common legal view is that it was abrogated by the 14th Amendment. The 14th amendment only applies to those subject to the jurisdiction of the United States and as such a representative of a foreign entity nor their children would not qualify relevant USCIS guidelines for those children. Descendants of the Moors, a hard to define group dispersed worldwide, and Hawaiians, the Hawaiian Kingdom being overthrown by US mainland farmers on the island, could claim allegiance to their original sovereign. Technically this would mean that not only does the 14th amendment not apply but Dred Scott baring citizenship to non-whites would apply. It is a view many Jurists have actually expressed see dissent of UNITED STATES v. WONG KIM ARK and would serve as basis for the more out there claims. In such a scenario a person becomes merely property and their only way to legally engage in living is to be a corporation (ala citizens united) that is auto-protected by a corporate veil (shielding liability). This stuff is definitely fringe but not crazy, I look at it as people confronting the system and demanding either America overturning many troubled past transgressions or give them the benefit of the disparate treatment. The surprised pikachu comes in when the Jurist decides to split the difference and deny both forms of relief.
Disagree there, it’s definitely crazy. If you’re starting to think this stuff makes actual sense and (more importantly) that you want to start testing the legal system using it, I suggest you seek some help from a mental health professional instead.
If you read the sources or even my closing line, I specifically disclaimed it’s usage, but at the end of the day the position was defeated 6-2 at the supreme court, with the two in dissent wholly agreeing with the argument put forth. Essentially arguing this in good faith would be no different than seeking an appeal or rehearing in other cases. It is the equivalent of calling everyone who tried to overturn Roe v Wade (a 7-2 decision) crazy because they lost one case. Some would argue the side against Roe is winning right now, so maybe its not even a safe bet to say nonwhites aren’t automatically citizens by birth.
I wouldn’t call them crazy because they lost one case, but rather because they believe that a cluster of cells is a person. But that’s getting off topic, because most of the legal “theories” behind sovcit have been thoroughly adjudicated and found to be entirely baseless.
People always hear about the white fringe/crazies/cults but its not like every other racial group is immune. From the the one you mentioned to the Black Hebrew Israelites to Jesus Morning Star (Korea) to Sanatan Sanstha (India) theres culty shenanigans all over the world.
Going to word this very carefully so it doesn’t come off wrong. I was only slightly aware of the movement in general. Then I read about it being common for these individuals to be men trying to avoid childcare payments. And then it clicked why it seems to be mostly men in general and very few women. Many of the men seeming to be in the 20-40 age range.
I’m not sure how it started off. Lately seems more about avoidance of responsibility. Instead of the weirdo libertarian movement I was assuming was going on. But ultimately I kinda don’t think that’s important. It’s just sad.
It actually has roots in the white supremacist ‘religion’ that is called Christian Identity dating back to 1971, which is still active today as well. In the 1990s the Moorish Science Temple began having an offshoot of sovcits among their members. There is also a Hawaiian sovcit movement.
Interesting! Out of curiosity, you obviously have a trove of these posts from communities…are you just a whacko connoisseur? Or does the sovcit movement specifically interest you? Were you ever a part of it? How do you know so much about it?
So I am interested in right wing extremists in general; I maintain a Facebook alt simply for the purpose of infiltrating white supremacists (and getting them in trouble and getting their accounts deleted-even reported two Capitol rioters). Sovereign citizens are an offshoot of that interest, but they’re mostly just funny to me because they’re so ridiculous, although I do think they’re somewhat dangerous to their children if nothing else. The ADL does some sovereign citizen work and I find it very interesting, and the ADL researcher Mark Pitcavage maintains a special interest in sovereign citizens which is what got me into them. I recommend his Twitter as well as that of Dr Christine Sarteschi who has written a book about sovereign citizens.
My big interest is the rise of Christian Identity ideology among young white supremacists, it’s something researchers are just really starting to take notice of, and I supply journalists and researchers information as well. I think CI is what’s causing younger white supremacist groups like Patriot Front to attract members and also to what’s called the trad life movement.
I am a lefty antifascist from cradle to grave, and have never had association with anyone on the right in any form, I think they’re all dumber than a bag of hammers. I spend immense amounts of time immersed in these strange worlds and I’ve only become more repelled by their beliefs over the last five years.
Hawaiian sovereignty or rich white dudes, not really fair to lump those things together
not really in support of those guys either but a number of them are self sufficient if they had natural resource control
IMO it’s less of a political movement and more of a cult. These people are being completely misled by others, in a way they’re victims.
It’s one thing to feel the world should be a certain way. It’s another to think there’s some magic phrase you can put on your car’s bumper to be immune from prosecution, but no one else knows the secret.
I think it also feeds their need to feel special. They are in the super secret club that knows the passwords and all these stupid sheeple are getting played.
It does seem that way now. It was political at first. But economic downturns and the internet seem likely reasons behind why it’s spreading. Desperate people doing desperate things. While being led by crazy people.
“They’re the same picture.”
I went looking for the stats just to see how much weight we could give to your hypothesis
https://www.ojjdp.gov/ojstatbb/population/qa01202.asp?qaDate=2022
Now we don’t have stats of SovCit by skin colour, but if it truly tends to be men trying to dodge childcare payments then it seems realistic that there would be a surprising number of black men (even if the movement tends to be associated with people leaning right) considering that a higher % of black families are raised by a single mother…
I’ve read this is still pretty niche. Might not be enough examples to make any accurate analysis.
But I have to assume in times the economy gets worse for ordinary people that extra bit of desperation leads some to hope for this kind of bunk to be the answer.
Is there any reason why this would be predominantly white only?
Explain this to a non-american who doesn’t really get the whole USA “white Americans are like X and black Americans are like Y” thing
It’s pretty heavily tied to the right wing/white nationalist movement. That was my understanding, anyway. And there is a sort of…stereotype of the kind of person who buys into it. Terminally online, uneducated, angry white people. Upset over the smallest perceived inconvenience. It’s a white rage thing. People of color, again, sort of stereotypically, know that while there are problems with the government and their power/exercise of it, that there are real problems to deal with. The stuff that seems to piss off the terminally online right wing white people are usually very small, very stupid things.
I’m also surprised by how many black people have bought into this. Primarily because most non-white people should know that if you piss cops off for any reason, right or wrong, you’re gonna have a bad time. They really, really don’t give a shit about your roadside lawyering and some cops will absolutely fuck you up, both physically and legally if they’re in the mood. A little bit of “resisting arrest,” a planted firearm and contraband, you’re going to prison. They won’t even feel bad about it because they’ll justify it as “getting a bad guy off the streets.”
I think they’re like antivaxers, started pretty neutral, got shoved right recently, but still a number of neo-hippies and whatnot hanging on.