I mean, the UNRWA needs to stop hiring terrorists. Vetting needs to be done better. At the same time though, Palestinians do need the aid, desperately. It’s a mess of a situation.
I doubt UNRWA would have hired them knowing this. If I recall it was 13 out of 13,000 employees? They terminated their contracts right away even before investigating them. Seems like UNRWA rectified its issue.
Cutting the funding is just silent participation in the genocide.
How? These countries are motivated by diplomacy. This is not like the ICJ where we have dedicated judges. In your argument, you are suggesting there is a “hidden” piece of information we are missing out, something only these countries know and we don’t (appeal to authority?), and that makes this “far greater than just a dozen people”… yet the evidence we have is only of 12-13 people. On the face of it, the terminations look unmotivated.
So how would we discover this “hidden” piece of information that would make this “far greater than just a dozen people”?
Fundamental issues with this organization have been known to the public for a long time. They are just finally being acknowledged and acted upon by those who can do something about it. I can only assume that you never once looked into this organization if you are honestly believing that the issue is limited to just “12-13 people”.
As it is, UNRWA is effectively a branch of Hamas. The overwhelming majority of its employees in Gaza belong to the Hamas-linked trade union.
Read the full PDF of the report. It will fundamentally change your view of this organization.
There is also the question whether it makes any sense at all that Palestinians, as the only people in the world, get their own dedicated relief agency. No other group enjoys this privilege and the amount of money and resources spent on each Palestinian during peacetime is far greater than any other group in the world. This has allowed both the PA and Hamas to neglect providing basic services to the Palestinian people, it has enabled enormously high unemployment rates and it allows these organizations to spend their money on terrorism and the support of it. Do you really think the PA could afford paying out hundreds of millions to terrorists and their families each year otherwise?
So I started reading this article and I click links when they provide them.
In the 3rd paragraph, they link to several sources that they deem as proven facts. However, the articles they link to don’t seem to agree at all.
Example 1: From the article you linked from The New Republic:
On another occasion, the UNRWA accused Israel of targeting civilians sheltering in a school when in fact those deaths were caused by a Hamas rocket that fell short.
The link takes you to a Times of Israel article that denied the 16 casualties altogether based on an IDF report, not much else.
Example 2: From the article you linked from The New Republic:
And on another occasion it accused Israel of targeting a shelter and civilians when in reality terrorists outside the facility were hit and civilian bodies possibly planted at the scene.
The article makes no conclusions about who did it, simply speculating on what it would mean if it were Israel or Hamas. In it, the IDF even admit to the possibility that it was them:
A senior Israeli military spokesman, Lt. Col. Peter Lerner, said Thursday night that “there was a possibility” shells from Israeli forces struck the U.N.-run school in the Gaza Strip. But he also suggested that Hamas mortars or rockets could have been responsible. The Israeli army was investigating the incident “to see what exactly caused the deaths and injuries,” he said.
I will probably continue reading this article, but I must say I’m not impressed at all.
I don’t think it shows that “hidden thing” that we were talking about.
I wrote you a long reply to this, have you not seen it?
I think if you want to post articles from The New Republic (which, after some Wikipedia reading, I found out is hugely and openly biased towards Israel), then it would be nice/polite/respectful to respond to criticism. Seems like that article you posted is full of BS (see my other comment). On the surface level if looks okay, but just like a painting it starts looking worse and worse the closer you stand.
The problem for me is that it’s not the first time that it’s happened. It’s definitely much less of a problem than Israel makes it out to be, but it is at the same time most certainly a problem. At the very least, the amount of people sympathetic to a literal terrorist organisation and attack (as revealed by the UN Watch of the existence of a Telegram group of 3000 UNRWA educators where talk switched between official business and antisemitism etc. https://twitter.com/hillelneuer/status/1746962851955191937) is too high.
Not to say the UN Watch isn’t itself biased (which it is), because of course everything has bias, but there have been quite many legitimate accusations that show that the UN does not have a good track record on this. And the UN does have an anti-Israel slant (though not as strong as the UN Watch’s pro-Israel slant)
I do think that the funding shouldn’t be cut. But again, this still does need to be solved, it’s an actual institutional problem. But I don’t have a solution.
Can you show some examples of these previous problems with the UN?
I don’t trust the UN Watch to define antisemitism. Lol. But we can discuss that too and their report, I just need to have it open on my laptop.
PS: I speak Arabic and checked that Twitter thread. No antisemetic content as far as I can see (checked the first 5 or so images posted). Looks like this guy just scribbled crap on top of people’s social media posts and called it support for October 7th. The other half of the stuff is just normal admin stuff? Wow what a crime lol
Extra clarification: yes, there are people on that page posting videos of the walls falling (no date on those) – still no call whatsoever to kill civilians or do anything. To these people, this was akin to the Berlin Wall falling, and no posts seemed to incite violence… I think none mention “Jews” either. The post about the “pogrom that killed 3” is a video of an attack on a Settler.
The only one is one single person named Khadija saying “OMG how much I hate Jews!”. In that conversation, they are discussing the hope of return to Palestine. The rest of her comment says, “So they are saying people in the North of Gaza can never return until the settlers living outside Gaza return to their homes… looks like this will take a long time”.
These are messages of people caught in a cruel regime that wants to erase them from existence every day.
Then there’s a link supposedly to show that one member of the group (who uses a fake name “Shams Al-Shamusa”) praising Hamas, yet the link takes you elsewhere?
The rest of the posts are fillers with just lists of teacher’s names. Huge violation of their privacy tbh.
Are you telling me they had access to all those chat groups and only a single person said they hated Jews?
Got it. I just asked about the evidence that convinced you, I’m not even sure how you could make the leap to
Are you saying UN is wrong?
or even what being wrong in this case means.
A lot of people believe IDF claims without a shred of evidence and that’s a disservice to the truth, like the 40 beheaded babies thing. The total child casualty count for Oct 7 was 36, including Israeli forces killing at least 2 Israeli children in one encounter.
Do you really think so many nations would withhold funding if there were mere accusations? Keep in mind that UNRWA themselves already fired a number of their employees in response to this.
The United Nations on Friday fired 12 of its employees in Gaza and began an investigation into them after accusations by Israel that they had helped plan and had participated in the Oct. 7 terrorist assault that left about 1,200 Israelis dead and more than 240 others captured.
Yet another, “I’m Israel so you must trust me, otherwise you’re antisemetic” lol
PS: Question about the claim that they were shown videos still stands. Any source for that?
No, terrorists are people who attack civilians as a war crime. Including actions from both the IDF and Hamas. And certain actions from US troops in various wars. But this is not the first account nor instance of UNRWA and its facilities being used in support of or directly for when Hamas does military action, which only endangers Palestinian civilians. If hospitals and schools etc. are indiscriminately used as war facilities, they become valid targets under international law, and thereby makes the civilians there much more at risk.
Were the Viet Cong terrorists too? They attacked villages, took hostages, and used tunnels and guerilla warfare just the same. These are simply the most effective tactics for driving out an occupying force, and they wouldn’t be necessary if the colony wasn’t there in the first place. Also, the vast majority of “israel” aren’t civilians; they’re IDF conscripts, settlers and colonizers.
Hamas does military action, which only endangers Palestinian civilians
Was the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising in Nazi Germany terrorism? Whatever the intention, the result was their own 13,000 civilians being killed, and very few German casualties.
Decolonization is violent. If you don’t like it, don’t colonize in the first place.
And certain actions from US
Not “certain actions”; the entirety of the US is a rogue terrorist state founded on the genocide of millions of indigenous people, slavery, and endless wars.
They’re literally both terrorists, I don’t know what to tell you. But even when killing civilians, there are rules that sometimes allow it according to proportionality rules (which I think Israel has violated). And of course the Israeli government actively wants to and are by the definitions of many committing genocide, which is way worse.
Unless you think that Hamas killing people at a music festival is somehow a valid military target, they’re terrorists. Just like how the IDF are terrorists for attacking Palestinian journalists and innocent family members.
“Terrorist” is a meaningless term in the first place really. It’s used by the imperial core to describe anyone from their own right-wing tools like the ISIS to anyone fighting against imperialism like Hamas or Ansarullah.
I mean, the UNRWA needs to stop hiring terrorists. Vetting needs to be done better. At the same time though, Palestinians do need the aid, desperately. It’s a mess of a situation.
I doubt UNRWA would have hired them knowing this. If I recall it was 13 out of 13,000 employees? They terminated their contracts right away even before investigating them. Seems like UNRWA rectified its issue.
Cutting the funding is just silent participation in the genocide.
It’s a protest on the UN ruling.
No, the withholding of funds indicates that the problem is far greater than just a dozen people.
How? These countries are motivated by diplomacy. This is not like the ICJ where we have dedicated judges. In your argument, you are suggesting there is a “hidden” piece of information we are missing out, something only these countries know and we don’t (appeal to authority?), and that makes this “far greater than just a dozen people”… yet the evidence we have is only of 12-13 people. On the face of it, the terminations look unmotivated.
So how would we discover this “hidden” piece of information that would make this “far greater than just a dozen people”?
Fundamental issues with this organization have been known to the public for a long time. They are just finally being acknowledged and acted upon by those who can do something about it. I can only assume that you never once looked into this organization if you are honestly believing that the issue is limited to just “12-13 people”.
This quote is from 2014:
https://newrepublic.com/article/119128/unrwa-must-be-defunded-palestinian-authority-have-viable-state
Here’s an in-depth investigation that exposes systematic indoctrination at the schools they are running:
https://unwatch.org/un-teachers-call-to-murder-jews-reveals-new-report/
Read the full PDF of the report. It will fundamentally change your view of this organization.
There is also the question whether it makes any sense at all that Palestinians, as the only people in the world, get their own dedicated relief agency. No other group enjoys this privilege and the amount of money and resources spent on each Palestinian during peacetime is far greater than any other group in the world. This has allowed both the PA and Hamas to neglect providing basic services to the Palestinian people, it has enabled enormously high unemployment rates and it allows these organizations to spend their money on terrorism and the support of it. Do you really think the PA could afford paying out hundreds of millions to terrorists and their families each year otherwise?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Authority_Martyrs_Fund
Thanks for the links!
About this one:
So I started reading this article and I click links when they provide them.
In the 3rd paragraph, they link to several sources that they deem as proven facts. However, the articles they link to don’t seem to agree at all.
Example 1: From the article you linked from The New Republic:
Example 2: From the article you linked from The New Republic:
However, that Washington Post article doesn’t suggest anywhere anything to reach the level of “in reality” (here is the Wayback machine link btw since it’s behind a paywall: http://web.archive.org/web/20200808105036/https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/israel-hamas-show-no-signs-of-bowing-to-pressure-for-truce/2014/07/24/90213d90-1305-11e4-8936-26932bcfd6ed_story.html).
The article makes no conclusions about who did it, simply speculating on what it would mean if it were Israel or Hamas. In it, the IDF even admit to the possibility that it was them:
I will probably continue reading this article, but I must say I’m not impressed at all. I don’t think it shows that “hidden thing” that we were talking about.
Edit: made the formatting clearer
I wrote you a long reply to this, have you not seen it?
I think if you want to post articles from The New Republic (which, after some Wikipedia reading, I found out is hugely and openly biased towards Israel), then it would be nice/polite/respectful to respond to criticism. Seems like that article you posted is full of BS (see my other comment). On the surface level if looks okay, but just like a painting it starts looking worse and worse the closer you stand.
The problem for me is that it’s not the first time that it’s happened. It’s definitely much less of a problem than Israel makes it out to be, but it is at the same time most certainly a problem. At the very least, the amount of people sympathetic to a literal terrorist organisation and attack (as revealed by the UN Watch of the existence of a Telegram group of 3000 UNRWA educators where talk switched between official business and antisemitism etc. https://twitter.com/hillelneuer/status/1746962851955191937) is too high.
Not to say the UN Watch isn’t itself biased (which it is), because of course everything has bias, but there have been quite many legitimate accusations that show that the UN does not have a good track record on this. And the UN does have an anti-Israel slant (though not as strong as the UN Watch’s pro-Israel slant)
I do think that the funding shouldn’t be cut. But again, this still does need to be solved, it’s an actual institutional problem. But I don’t have a solution.
Can you show some examples of these previous problems with the UN?
I don’t trust the UN Watch to define antisemitism. Lol. But we can discuss that too and their report, I just need to have it open on my laptop.
PS: I speak Arabic and checked that Twitter thread. No antisemetic content as far as I can see (checked the first 5 or so images posted). Looks like this guy just scribbled crap on top of people’s social media posts and called it support for October 7th. The other half of the stuff is just normal admin stuff? Wow what a crime lol
Extra clarification: yes, there are people on that page posting videos of the walls falling (no date on those) – still no call whatsoever to kill civilians or do anything. To these people, this was akin to the Berlin Wall falling, and no posts seemed to incite violence… I think none mention “Jews” either. The post about the “pogrom that killed 3” is a video of an attack on a Settler.
The only one is one single person named Khadija saying “OMG how much I hate Jews!”. In that conversation, they are discussing the hope of return to Palestine. The rest of her comment says, “So they are saying people in the North of Gaza can never return until the settlers living outside Gaza return to their homes… looks like this will take a long time”.
These are messages of people caught in a cruel regime that wants to erase them from existence every day.
Then there’s a link supposedly to show that one member of the group (who uses a fake name “Shams Al-Shamusa”) praising Hamas, yet the link takes you elsewhere?
The rest of the posts are fillers with just lists of teacher’s names. Huge violation of their privacy tbh.
Are you telling me they had access to all those chat groups and only a single person said they hated Jews?
Isn’t this all based on Israeli accusations? As we know, Israel can’t really be trusted
But it’s confirmed by UN themselves and action are taken on 9 of the 12 individual, with 1 being dead.
Where did you read that?
https://www.ynetnews.com/article/r1zhhvmca
How did you get to that conclusion? The only “evidence” from the article seems to be
Was pictures from the IDF the evidence that convinced you?
My opinion is based on the article where UN took action on 9 of the 12 individual after their preliminary investigation. Are you saying UN is wrong?
Got it. I just asked about the evidence that convinced you, I’m not even sure how you could make the leap to
or even what being wrong in this case means.
A lot of people believe IDF claims without a shred of evidence and that’s a disservice to the truth, like the 40 beheaded babies thing. The total child casualty count for Oct 7 was 36, including Israeli forces killing at least 2 Israeli children in one encounter.
Wait now I get it, you were being defensive.
No i don’t get it lol. You asked i answered and you get oddly upset about my opinion, now i’m being called defensive.
This person was just thing to answer your question. I think you read too much into it philosophically /:
Do you really think so many nations would withhold funding if there were mere accusations? Keep in mind that UNRWA themselves already fired a number of their employees in response to this.
It could very well be that these nations are virtue signaling to Israel rather than interested in the UNRWA staff at all.
Israel showed the ambassadors of these countries classified videos of the accused people filming themselves murdering and mutilating people on oct 7.
This is why the decision to stop funding was so decisive. Its facts that cannot be disproven in any way once you see them.
Really? I read elsewhere it was due to posts they made that support this.
Do you have a source?
EDIT: looks like the NYT reported on something similar, but not your claim: (https://www.nytimes.com/2024/01/26/world/middleeast/un-aid-israel-oct-7-attacks.html, archived: http://web.archive.org/web/20240127013656/https://www.nytimes.com/2024/01/26/world/middleeast/un-aid-israel-oct-7-attacks.html)
Yet another, “I’m Israel so you must trust me, otherwise you’re antisemetic” lol
PS: Question about the claim that they were shown videos still stands. Any source for that?
Terrorists = Anyone fighting against western imperialism and colonialism
No, terrorists are people who attack civilians as a war crime. Including actions from both the IDF and Hamas. And certain actions from US troops in various wars. But this is not the first account nor instance of UNRWA and its facilities being used in support of or directly for when Hamas does military action, which only endangers Palestinian civilians. If hospitals and schools etc. are indiscriminately used as war facilities, they become valid targets under international law, and thereby makes the civilians there much more at risk.
Were the Viet Cong terrorists too? They attacked villages, took hostages, and used tunnels and guerilla warfare just the same. These are simply the most effective tactics for driving out an occupying force, and they wouldn’t be necessary if the colony wasn’t there in the first place. Also, the vast majority of “israel” aren’t civilians; they’re IDF conscripts, settlers and colonizers.
Was the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising in Nazi Germany terrorism? Whatever the intention, the result was their own 13,000 civilians being killed, and very few German casualties.
Decolonization is violent. If you don’t like it, don’t colonize in the first place.
Not “certain actions”; the entirety of the US is a rogue terrorist state founded on the genocide of millions of indigenous people, slavery, and endless wars.
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They’re literally both terrorists, I don’t know what to tell you. But even when killing civilians, there are rules that sometimes allow it according to proportionality rules (which I think Israel has violated). And of course the Israeli government actively wants to and are by the definitions of many committing genocide, which is way worse.
Unless you think that Hamas killing people at a music festival is somehow a valid military target, they’re terrorists. Just like how the IDF are terrorists for attacking Palestinian journalists and innocent family members.
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“Terrorist” is a meaningless term in the first place really. It’s used by the imperial core to describe anyone from their own right-wing tools like the ISIS to anyone fighting against imperialism like Hamas or Ansarullah.
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