In a sense, Hamas had to have known that what they were going to do was going to have a HUGE military response from Israel. Govts are like the Mafia, they can’t just let any disrespect go unpunished. Hamas planned on indiscriminately killing civilians and taking hostages. I’m not sure any government in the world wouldn’t have had a predictable military response of some kind.
Hamas seems to have misjudged the extant to which Israel was willing to go (all-out war and extermination of Hamas), but they still knew at some level that Israel was going to come in shooting and killing civilians. Israel shoots at kids for throwing rocks, of course Hamas knew civilians were getting killed from their actions. Add in that Netanyahu has his own unrelated troubles in Israel and he needed a disaster like this to distract the public. Plus, Israel would take any excuse it could to further erode Gaza, so they basically handed Israel a gift-wrapped war.
Does that absolve Israel’s military from indiscriminately killing civilians? Absolutely not, they have their own issues with systemic racism towards Arabs that’s built up over decades and a military that’s apparently given up on professionalism and following the rule of law. I think their calculus is total extermination of Hamas and further encroachment into Palestinian lands, to them that’s more than worth whatever civilian casualties and international condemnation they get for a few months of conflict.
So what you’re saying is that Hamas should have known that israel are such insanely brutal barbarian Nazi’s that they should have been too scared to stand up against oppression?
i would have pushed it here as a reply but it surpassed the maximum character count. you might find it useful for supporting your arguments in the future.
So what you’re saying is that Hamas should have known that israel are such insanely brutal barbarian Nazi’s that they should have been too scared to stand up against oppression?
I can’t say what they should have known, but ot looks like they were really aiming for Israel to go “your rocket strikes always hurt but that massacre hit us especially hard, and you also took civillians as hostages, so yeah, we have no choice but to stop oppressing you. Sorry for everything and you can keep the hostages”, which couldn’t be fruitful no matter how you look at it.
Did you see videos recorded by Palestinians themselves on that day though?
Random gore videos from syria and other places and some rape videos from different time and regions. I was scared as a muslim but my friends said be brave, idf is good at spreading false information and it really did happen.
I don’t think such a question is what a theoretical judgment should end with.
I’d like to ask a question “is there an explanation of logic behind the attack on October 7?”.
The only explanation I can come up with is that hamas wanted a lot of Palestinians to get killed. This fits more points in a “hamas doesn’t care about Palestinians” narrative, than any other explanation would fit the “Israel doesn’t care about Israeli” narrative.
The explanation is that Israel has been effectively laying seige to them for 30 years, and they found a chance to actually hurt them and seized it. There was no other choice available to them. If some Palestinians survive this, it will be more than would have survived without the 10/7 attack
They took hostages because israel has illegally kidnapped many Palestinians and tortures them in prison without trial before oct7. And Hamas wants to trade their hostages for the Palestinians hostages kidnapped by israel.
They are being kept there, they are not allowed to leave. Normally I would call that a prison, but prison would imply that they were convicted of a crime, which they weren’t. They are kept there, because Israel considers Palestinians to be an undesirable ethnicity. That is a concentration camp. You are conflating concentration camp with the nazi death camps.
Palestinians with dual nationality might be able to leave, but most of them can’t just leave. Gaza is surrounded by blockades imposed by Israel and Egypt, which restrict movement. Israel prevents access to and from Gaza by sea and air. Land movement is restricted to three crossings: the Egypt-controlled Rafah crossing and Erez and Kerem Shalom crossings, which Israel controls.
That’s also why they aren’t letting the rodents leave, the rodents are also Hamas. And obviously, hospitals and churches are well known to be the highest ranking members of Hamas.
most citizens of Isn’treal have dule citizenship, why do you genocidal manachs just leave.
also is Hamas in the room right now?
also agian, Eradicating a genocidal state is a noble goal, and the only place saying their goal is eradication of jews is Isn’treal who also says that critisizing them is tantimout to anti-semitism, when there is a stronger historical connection to zionism and anti-semitism
I mean first, I need to point out that that Isn’treal was convicted genocide.
I would also like to point out that the “hostages” potentialy could be called Prisoners of war, have been demonstrated as safer with Hamas as the IOF has shot released POWs who have come under a white flag to the IOF
Israel is still in the wrong for retaliating to 10/7 at all. If you punch a guy in a bar, then he punches you back, you aren’t then allowed to retaliate to the retaliation. Throwing a 3rd punch would mean you are both the starter of the fight, and also responsible for perpetuating it
Of course I’m not but I’m also not surprised that its happening after Oct 7. I think there should be an immediate ceasefire, from both sides, and then hash out some kind of diplomatic compromise. Not up to me though
I would also like a cease fire. Or truce. An armistice or something that creates a short term and then a long term peace where the Palestinians can have the freedoms that the Israelis have. Though that may be too much to ask.
I can’t explain Hamas’ thinking for the actions of Oct. 7th. But I can see, if we work your analogy, that they didn’t just go out to poke a bear. Rather, the bear has been menacingly hovering over Palestinians after coming into the home and swiping at them for decades. They can either die slowly doing nothing, or fight back knowing that they can be morally injured. Meanwhile, all your neighbors are saying you should let the bear live peacefully in your home. In fact, the city council made a plan for that to happen. Enen your friends are like, “The bear isn’t that bad.” So you fight back. And your friends aren’t on team bear anymore. And some neighbors are like “WTF bear!” And none of that happens without knifing the bear.
I mean I would love for a Genocide to stop happening from a Setteler colonial nation, who seems hell bent on the extermination of a multi-religious group of people,(because yes there where and are palistianian jews) can you please set that up?
Prominent members of the Israeli government and the Zionist movement have stated this aim both in the present and throughout the short history. Second, they have the means to do so. Hamas has the motives, but lacks the opportunity and means.
no Isnt’real started it when they where doing the slow genocide, you cannot blame an opressed group for fighting their opression. your poking the bear analigy in no way holds up. Isn’treal was not minding its buisness it was before the opporation still activly genoicing the palistinians.
Look man, I have no care about being “cringy” I think your complet lack of human empathy or geoplolitical understanding is cringe, but that is not the reason I am arguing.
No the reason Isn’treal was founded (yes I am doubling down on it) was a fuffilment of Zionism, at the time was seen as a deeply anti-semetic idea, and it arguably still is, it is we do not want the Jews near us, Their only argument for it is that the tora talked about it their, and may I point out that it is rediculous that we would use a holy book as justification for kicking people who where living in an area already out of their homes. Palistine already existed as the Palistinian Mandate, it was a mandate under the UK as a comprimise after WW1 for the dissilusion of the Ottoman empire, between self determination of the locals, and the empire building of the great powers of the time, so the idea being is it would be the UK’s in name only. Isn’treal soon after they took over the Mandate of Palistine, did the Nakba, removal of all political rights and posessions, and forced migrations into the gettos, massicers and killings, destruction of importion cultrual and comunity sights, and this, Fimbulwinter, is why their neighbors dislike them, this event right here,
If you are curious the reason why there are so many isalmic nations in the area, we can look at the ottoman empire, I also want to point out that their are 0 Athiest nations, a large amount of Christian nations.
So yes Isn’treal has been genocidal from day one, you can even ask the first person they asked to be president Albert Einstine who refused on the basis of the being genocidal.
Hey man, your reason and logic aren’t going to hold up to the Qatari and Iranian Propaganda. Doesn’t matter that one side rejected the deal offered at the start, doesn’t matter that one side refuses to acknowledge the other sides existence. This is the time when people can shit on Jews, err I mean Zionists and feel good about themselves.
The oppressor narrative is pretty hilarious when you put it into the context of a simple map showing Arab countries vs non Arab countries in the region. Next we’ll start hearing about how those countries all converted without a single drop of blood LMFAO.
You either need to learn what the word literally means or you need to reread the ICJ ruling.
There’s no genocide happening. If there were, don’t you think the court would have ruled for a ceasefire or a stopage like they did in Ukraine.
You fallen for the propaganda. You’re not alone, but that doesn’t make you right.
As for Zionism being anti-Semitic, the majority of the world’s Jews would disagree with you. Zionism The goal of Jews to have self-determination. Israel provides them that. Anyway, you attempt to twist that is taking that definition away from the way it’s understood by the vast majority of non morons in this world.
In a sense, Hamas had to have known that what they were going to do was going to have a HUGE military response from Israel. Govts are like the Mafia, they can’t just let any disrespect go unpunished. Hamas planned on indiscriminately killing civilians and taking hostages. I’m not sure any government in the world wouldn’t have had a predictable military response of some kind.
Hamas seems to have misjudged the extant to which Israel was willing to go (all-out war and extermination of Hamas), but they still knew at some level that Israel was going to come in shooting and killing civilians. Israel shoots at kids for throwing rocks, of course Hamas knew civilians were getting killed from their actions. Add in that Netanyahu has his own unrelated troubles in Israel and he needed a disaster like this to distract the public. Plus, Israel would take any excuse it could to further erode Gaza, so they basically handed Israel a gift-wrapped war.
Does that absolve Israel’s military from indiscriminately killing civilians? Absolutely not, they have their own issues with systemic racism towards Arabs that’s built up over decades and a military that’s apparently given up on professionalism and following the rule of law. I think their calculus is total extermination of Hamas and further encroachment into Palestinian lands, to them that’s more than worth whatever civilian casualties and international condemnation they get for a few months of conflict.
So what you’re saying is that Hamas should have known that israel are such insanely brutal barbarian Nazi’s that they should have been too scared to stand up against oppression?
Since you are still under the impression that Hamas indiscriminately killed civilians, here’s a nice video explaining what really happened on oct7
is all of this compiled anywhere else? bullet points or something with links?
i believe it, but i won’t spread it unless i can verify it.
Yes this video is actually addressing his article which is filled with links and evidence:
Netanyahu’s War on Truth - Israel’s Ruthless Propaganda Campaign to Dehumanize Palestinians
If you skip the chapter “intelligence failures” and go straight to “Information warfare” you’ll find evidence for all his claims in the video.
the entire article fully formatted in markdown
i would have pushed it here as a reply but it surpassed the maximum character count. you might find it useful for supporting your arguments in the future.
Being an asshole rarely brings people to your side
You’re right I have repeated myself a lot over the last months which tends to get tiring but this person might not yet be up to date.
I will rephrase my previous comment thank you for pointing it out.
I can’t say what they should have known, but ot looks like they were really aiming for Israel to go “your rocket strikes always hurt but that massacre hit us especially hard, and you also took civillians as hostages, so yeah, we have no choice but to stop oppressing you. Sorry for everything and you can keep the hostages”, which couldn’t be fruitful no matter how you look at it.
Did you see videos recorded by Palestinians themselves on that day though?
Random gore videos from syria and other places and some rape videos from different time and regions. I was scared as a muslim but my friends said be brave, idf is good at spreading false information and it really did happen.
You mean all those videos are fake?
No. Misinformed. Most of them were real videos but were not related to palestine or israel.
Is the video where toilet boxes at the music festival are getting shooted at not related to Palestine or Israel?
Can you provide a link?
Video: Hamas releases footage of music festival carnage, gunmen shoot at toilets - India Today https://www.indiatoday.in/amp/world/story/hamas-desert-rave-party-music-festival-south-israel-video-attack-toilets-palestine-war-2448868-2023-10-14
Many of the videos are real. Hamas definitely shot some civilians. The problem is all the burnt bodies.
If you ask the question “How did Israel count 250 burnt Hamas fighters as Israeli civilians” the narrative falls apart.
I don’t think such a question is what a theoretical judgment should end with.
I’d like to ask a question “is there an explanation of logic behind the attack on October 7?”.
The only explanation I can come up with is that hamas wanted a lot of Palestinians to get killed. This fits more points in a “hamas doesn’t care about Palestinians” narrative, than any other explanation would fit the “Israel doesn’t care about Israeli” narrative.
The explanation is that Israel has been effectively laying seige to them for 30 years, and they found a chance to actually hurt them and seized it. There was no other choice available to them. If some Palestinians survive this, it will be more than would have survived without the 10/7 attack
What are you talking about? Did you see Gaza population charts for last years?
I saw all the videos of Oct7.
They took hostages because israel has illegally kidnapped many Palestinians and tortures them in prison without trial before oct7. And Hamas wants to trade their hostages for the Palestinians hostages kidnapped by israel.
Did you see this video one though
How many hostages does Israel hold?
3484 hostages
So is it okay to propose that hamas could have a success if they captured the same amount?
No israel would still kill all the hostages held by Hamas. Their government doesn’t care about hostages.
Did hamas know that all along?
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They are being kept there, they are not allowed to leave. Normally I would call that a prison, but prison would imply that they were convicted of a crime, which they weren’t. They are kept there, because Israel considers Palestinians to be an undesirable ethnicity. That is a concentration camp. You are conflating concentration camp with the nazi death camps.
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Palestinians with dual nationality might be able to leave, but most of them can’t just leave. Gaza is surrounded by blockades imposed by Israel and Egypt, which restrict movement. Israel prevents access to and from Gaza by sea and air. Land movement is restricted to three crossings: the Egypt-controlled Rafah crossing and Erez and Kerem Shalom crossings, which Israel controls.
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pick one
That’s also why they aren’t letting the rodents leave, the rodents are also Hamas. And obviously, hospitals and churches are well known to be the highest ranking members of Hamas.
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most citizens of Isn’treal have dule citizenship, why do you genocidal manachs just leave.
also is Hamas in the room right now?
also agian, Eradicating a genocidal state is a noble goal, and the only place saying their goal is eradication of jews is Isn’treal who also says that critisizing them is tantimout to anti-semitism, when there is a stronger historical connection to zionism and anti-semitism
the closed borders on both sides,
the fact Isn’treal has been providing “safe locations” then promptly bombing them in violation if international law
the fact Isn’treal has been bombing hospitals and schools in violation of international law
also no one here has said anything about them being animals … but the Isn’treal government has… a mark of a genocidal government.
I mean, there’s still some shit going on.
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The ICJ found that there was Genocide and Ruled that Isn’treal must take all steps practicle to stop the genocide, why have you not done that yet?
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I mean first, I need to point out that that Isn’treal was convicted genocide.
I would also like to point out that the “hostages” potentialy could be called Prisoners of war, have been demonstrated as safer with Hamas as the IOF has shot released POWs who have come under a white flag to the IOF
Which babies were proper prisoners of war?
How can you be so arrogant about a subject you know nothing about at all?
Are you denying that the Holocaust happened because you weren’t there first hand?
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10 Questions for Gaza Genocide Deniers
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Answer the damn questions
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Did I break the AI?
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Israel is still in the wrong for retaliating to 10/7 at all. If you punch a guy in a bar, then he punches you back, you aren’t then allowed to retaliate to the retaliation. Throwing a 3rd punch would mean you are both the starter of the fight, and also responsible for perpetuating it
Exactly, its not Israel that started this war, if you go stab a bear its not really the bears fault when it mauls you.
The bear isn’t a democratic society with moral obligations not to commit ethnic cleansing.
Do you think the history of Palestinian/Israeli relations started last October? Lmao.
Ya, the surrounding Arab Nations have been attacking Israel for nearly 80 years, and they were murdering Jews for centuries before that too.
And Israel the state has been murdering Palestinians for nearly 80 years as well.
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Are you comfortable with Israel killing, injuring, and destroying the homes, businesses, and communities of Gazans?
Of course I’m not but I’m also not surprised that its happening after Oct 7. I think there should be an immediate ceasefire, from both sides, and then hash out some kind of diplomatic compromise. Not up to me though
I would also like a cease fire. Or truce. An armistice or something that creates a short term and then a long term peace where the Palestinians can have the freedoms that the Israelis have. Though that may be too much to ask.
I can’t explain Hamas’ thinking for the actions of Oct. 7th. But I can see, if we work your analogy, that they didn’t just go out to poke a bear. Rather, the bear has been menacingly hovering over Palestinians after coming into the home and swiping at them for decades. They can either die slowly doing nothing, or fight back knowing that they can be morally injured. Meanwhile, all your neighbors are saying you should let the bear live peacefully in your home. In fact, the city council made a plan for that to happen. Enen your friends are like, “The bear isn’t that bad.” So you fight back. And your friends aren’t on team bear anymore. And some neighbors are like “WTF bear!” And none of that happens without knifing the bear.
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I mean I would love for a Genocide to stop happening from a Setteler colonial nation, who seems hell bent on the extermination of a multi-religious group of people,(because yes there where and are palistianian jews) can you please set that up?
Nice try Ret. General Gantz! We know you’d rather push the Palestinians into the sea.
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who said anything about Jews, We are talking about Isn’treal here, 1) stop conflaiting the 2
second OMFG your second sentence is so ubelevably racist
Benny… c’mon my friend! We know what you want. Just say it. It’s freeing. Don’t hide behind deflection.
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Erasure of Isn’treal, a genocidal state 1) is not the eresure or genocide of Jews, and 2) is a noble and honorable goal
Prominent members of the Israeli government and the Zionist movement have stated this aim both in the present and throughout the short history. Second, they have the means to do so. Hamas has the motives, but lacks the opportunity and means.
no Isnt’real started it when they where doing the slow genocide, you cannot blame an opressed group for fighting their opression. your poking the bear analigy in no way holds up. Isn’treal was not minding its buisness it was before the opporation still activly genoicing the palistinians.
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Look, Would you rather I use the correct name of a state that has been founded from day one on genociding the palistinians?
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Look man, I have no care about being “cringy” I think your complet lack of human empathy or geoplolitical understanding is cringe, but that is not the reason I am arguing.
No the reason Isn’treal was founded (yes I am doubling down on it) was a fuffilment of Zionism, at the time was seen as a deeply anti-semetic idea, and it arguably still is, it is we do not want the Jews near us, Their only argument for it is that the tora talked about it their, and may I point out that it is rediculous that we would use a holy book as justification for kicking people who where living in an area already out of their homes. Palistine already existed as the Palistinian Mandate, it was a mandate under the UK as a comprimise after WW1 for the dissilusion of the Ottoman empire, between self determination of the locals, and the empire building of the great powers of the time, so the idea being is it would be the UK’s in name only. Isn’treal soon after they took over the Mandate of Palistine, did the Nakba, removal of all political rights and posessions, and forced migrations into the gettos, massicers and killings, destruction of importion cultrual and comunity sights, and this, Fimbulwinter, is why their neighbors dislike them, this event right here,
If you are curious the reason why there are so many isalmic nations in the area, we can look at the ottoman empire, I also want to point out that their are 0 Athiest nations, a large amount of Christian nations.
So yes Isn’treal has been genocidal from day one, you can even ask the first person they asked to be president Albert Einstine who refused on the basis of the being genocidal.
Hey man, your reason and logic aren’t going to hold up to the Qatari and Iranian Propaganda. Doesn’t matter that one side rejected the deal offered at the start, doesn’t matter that one side refuses to acknowledge the other sides existence. This is the time when people can shit on Jews, err I mean Zionists and feel good about themselves.
The oppressor narrative is pretty hilarious when you put it into the context of a simple map showing Arab countries vs non Arab countries in the region. Next we’ll start hearing about how those countries all converted without a single drop of blood LMFAO.
Being opposed to a LITERAL GENNOCIDE is not Qatari or Iranian propoganda, it is having a simple moral compass.
Also there is a considerable difrence between Zionists and Jews and if you do not understand that there is a problem
3rd untill fairly recently Zionism was considered anti-semetic… and it arguably is anti-semetic
4th I have heard no one say that the conversion to Islam was without wars, are you saying that we need to do a GENOCIDE to get that? really man?
You either need to learn what the word literally means or you need to reread the ICJ ruling.
There’s no genocide happening. If there were, don’t you think the court would have ruled for a ceasefire or a stopage like they did in Ukraine.
You fallen for the propaganda. You’re not alone, but that doesn’t make you right.
As for Zionism being anti-Semitic, the majority of the world’s Jews would disagree with you. Zionism The goal of Jews to have self-determination. Israel provides them that. Anyway, you attempt to twist that is taking that definition away from the way it’s understood by the vast majority of non morons in this world.
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