I don’t know enough either. But for me this means I don’t want not err on the side of unnecessarly making people go through psychological treatment or even medical procedures. That’s what we have done to homosexuals and transgender people for decades and now most people agree that that was nonsense and actually pretty cruel. The affected themselves can choose to do any of these but they shouldn’t be pressured and certainly not forced to do any of it.
But putting them in the minority group like if they were lgbtqia for exemple, is only going to harm minorities and allow more pedophiles to feel legitimate in their urges, and maybe act on it.
I don’t think that’s true. Firstly, and it’s just a technicality, they are by definition a minority. But more importantly: Afaik they face a lot of the same challenges other minorities face. Fear of rejection in social groups, discrimination in the workplace, being forced to always be concious of hiding one aspect of yourself. Empathizing with that does not mean legitimating their urges, which is the main thing differentiating them from most other minorities. And I get that that makes it hard to empathize with them.
I also don’t think socially outcasting peoples urges is as effective as people think. Just look at the scandals in the churches that have been uncovered in the last few years. It just means that people hide their urges, never learn how to really deal with them, and then turn into predators because of it.
Yeah I never said socially outcast them. But I feel that what you are saying is “we should accept them”, and multiple times you have been comparing pedophilia to homosexuality. That’s harmful, because there is one big difference : one harms others, the other doesn’t.
LGBTQIA should not have to hide themselves, pedophiles should try to not be pedophiles anymore. Simple as. Pedophiles SHOULD fear social rejection, because pedophilia is harmful to society. It’s really not that hard. It doesn’t mean we should not empathize, it means we should treat them.
And I don’t see how one would even think it’s unecessary to make people undergo psychological treatment for something as harmful as pedophilia. They need help, they need at the minimum psychological support. Of course you can’t force people to go through that, but please don’t compare this to anti homosexual treatments, it is not the same.
That’s harmful, because there is one big difference : one harms others, the other doesn’t.
Pedophiles SHOULD fear social rejection, because pedophilia is harmful to society
This is the core of our disagreement. Pedophilia itself does not harm anyone but the one having to deal with it. Representing pedophiles as a threat to society judges many for the actions of a few. The individuals did not do anything wrong, and they do not deserve rejection for what they are.
pedophiles should try to not be pedophiles anymore
This sentiment is, and I am sorry that you don’t like the comparison, the same that people had towards homosexuals for a long time. I am not saying that homosecuality and pedophilia are the same. I am saying the people in both groups face very similar challenges. As far as I know “just not being a pedophile” is not possible for an actual pedophile. The only result you’ll get with that is that people hide in a closet, without getting the help that they could use.
And I don’t see how one would even think it’s unecessary to make people undergo psychological treatment for something as harmful as pedophilia.
The simple fact that I don’t know that there is a treatment that actually cures pedophilia.
They need help, they need at the minimum psychological support.
This is not the same as “make people undergo psychological treatment”.
Of course you can’t force people to go through that
Well which is it, “make people undergo psychological treatment” or " you can’t force people to go through that". You’ve got to pick a line here.
but please don’t compare this to anti homosexual treatments, it is not the same.
You’ve been pretty vague as to what you want to “make” them do or “not force” them to do or what help you want to get them. Though your sentiment towards pedophilia is similar to what spawend the hellhole of homosexual conversion therapies so please forgive my assumption that you would go into this direction as well.
Pedophilia itself does not harm anyone but the one having to deal with it. Representing pedophiles as a threat to society judges many for the actions of a few. The individuals did not do anything wrong, and they do not deserve rejection for what they are.
Until they do… It’s not because they never acted on it that they will never. And I’m pretty sure that if you start to accept pedophilia as “just another minority”, pedophiles all around the world will feel more legitimate and act on it more because hey it’s normal now.
PLUS if you merge them to LGBTQ for instance, it allows more hate towards LGBTQ because people fear (for a good reason) pedophilia. It already is their main argument, with grooming etc. It’s always the children.
As far as I know “just not being a pedophile” is not possible for an actual pedophile? The only result you’ll get with that is that people hide in a closet, without getting the help that they could use.
The simple fact that I don’t know that there is a treatment that actually cures pedophilia.
There are actual treatments (for reducing libido for instance, like antiandrogens, selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors), group therapies, etc. that seems to help :
I agree that I’m a little confused about how it should be approached, because it should be a initiative from the pedophiles and not mandated, but I still think it should be done for every pedophiles.
As a parent, pedophilia is a real concern, and you merging it with homosexuality just make me really angry.
Until they do… It’s not because they never acted on it that they will never.
That’s just preemptive capital (wrong word, my bad! I’ll leave it so the comment below still makes sense) collective punishment. If you want to support that I can’t stop you but I won’t agree with it.
And I’m pretty sure that if you start to accept pedophilia as “just another minority”, pedophiles all around the world will feel more legitimate and act on it becauce hey it’s normal now.
Again, noone is advocating for normalising acting on it. Conflating treating pedophiles as humans with a unique struggle with supporting them raping children is not helpful to the discussion.
PLUS if you merge them to LGBTQ for instance, it allows more hate towards LGBTQ because people fear (for a good reason) pedophilia. It already is their main argument, with grooming etc. It’s always the children.
That is a legitimate concern, insofar as it is a tactical concern for the movement. That does not speak towards the logic of things, as it is only about optics. The opposition lies about the LGBTQ movement, and therefore you want to separate the movement from that minority. This might be valid as a strategy for the movement but it does not mean that pedophiles don’t have very similar struggels as other minorities in LGBTQ.
As a parent, pedophilia is a real concern, and you merging it with homosexuality just make me really angry.
Again, I am not saying the two are the same. I am saying that people of both groups face similar issues.
There are actual treatments (for reducing libido for instance, like antiandrogens, selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors), group therapies, etc. that seems to help :
They won’t stop you from being a pedophile or cure you. Both help you manage your urges. And I agree that people who struggle with pedophilia should look into these options if they feel they are not able to manage it on their own.
I agree that I’m a little confused about how it should be approached, because it should be a initiative from the pedophiles and not mandated, but I still think it should be done for every pedophiles.
I think this is in part fueled by a (very much understandable!) fear for your children. I would ask you to take a step back and ask yourself if you are being completely rational about this issue.
I would ask you to take a step back and ask yourself if you are being completely rational about this issue.
I mean I kinda would like you to do the same, because you keep misunderstanding me, and it looks more and more like you’re doing it on purpose. Wth are you going on about “preemptive capital punishment” ?I said we need to empathize with them, never talked about punishment, never said we should not treat them as human.
I said we should not treat them as “another minority” because it’s a mental disorder, unlike homosexuality… When I said they should try not being pedophiles anymore, what I meant was they should seek help for fighting their urges because it should never be accepted, as you should not accept psychopaths until they are under treatment. They are both disorders and should be treated as such. Saying they face similar issues is not helping, because those issues are for completely different reasons. Some are legitimate, other aren’t.
I mean I kinda would like you to do the same, because you keep misunderstanding me, and it looks more and more like you’re doing it on purpose
I am sorry if this is the impression I am giving you, I promise that is not what is happening here.
Wth are you going on about “preemptive capital punishment” ?I
I am very sorry that was completely wrong. I meant collective punishment. I’ll edit the comment above accordingly. Obviously you never called for captial punishment.
as you should not accept psychopaths until they are under treatment
I would actually disagree with that too. You need to take some care when you interact with them but “not accepting” or “social rejection” is far over the line in my opinion. The people having to deal with this are the ones that can decide how they deal with it unless they have become dangerous to others. And no, just because some have become dangerous does not mean all of them are dangerous.
Saying they face similar issues is not helping, because those issues are for completely different reasons. Some are legitimate, other aren’t.
I disagree with this too. For examples I don’t think discriminating against people that are pedophiles in the jobmarket is better than discriminating against any other minority.
That’s where we shall agree to disagree. We should not discriminate against those who seek help, yes, but if they are not willing to, they should not be near children.
If I understand you correctly, in your opinion something should be categorized as a mental disorder based on whether a behavior is potentially harmful to others?
Homosexuality, a sexual attraction that deviates from the norm - not a mental disorder because it doesn’t cause harm.
Paedophilia, a sexual attraction that deviates from the norm - is a mental disorder because it potentially causes harm.
Seems a bit arbitrary to me. Maybe I’m missing something.
I did some extra research, and yeah, turns out something being a mental disorder does not depend on whether it involves atypical behaviors or preferences, it depends on whether it causes distress or impairment, or is harmful to the individual or others. Furthermore, the context, intensity, and impact of the behavior is also a deciding factor.
Basically, it’s subjective. It’s a disorder if we decide it’s a disorder.
The main caveat is the the group they try to be included with is associated with “pride” and we can’t endorse pride in pedophillia because it’s immoral. Even if you don’t act on it, you cant be proud of it. I think the idea of encouraging them is nice but the encouragement almost feels like it should be part of a support group which obviously doesn’t help.
I would rather identity and kinks be separated for the sake of the movement but I think there’s arguments behind the difference.
I don’t know enough either. But for me this means I don’t want not err on the side of unnecessarly making people go through psychological treatment or even medical procedures. That’s what we have done to homosexuals and transgender people for decades and now most people agree that that was nonsense and actually pretty cruel. The affected themselves can choose to do any of these but they shouldn’t be pressured and certainly not forced to do any of it.
I don’t think that’s true. Firstly, and it’s just a technicality, they are by definition a minority. But more importantly: Afaik they face a lot of the same challenges other minorities face. Fear of rejection in social groups, discrimination in the workplace, being forced to always be concious of hiding one aspect of yourself. Empathizing with that does not mean legitimating their urges, which is the main thing differentiating them from most other minorities. And I get that that makes it hard to empathize with them.
I also don’t think socially outcasting peoples urges is as effective as people think. Just look at the scandals in the churches that have been uncovered in the last few years. It just means that people hide their urges, never learn how to really deal with them, and then turn into predators because of it.
Yeah I never said socially outcast them. But I feel that what you are saying is “we should accept them”, and multiple times you have been comparing pedophilia to homosexuality. That’s harmful, because there is one big difference : one harms others, the other doesn’t.
LGBTQIA should not have to hide themselves, pedophiles should try to not be pedophiles anymore. Simple as. Pedophiles SHOULD fear social rejection, because pedophilia is harmful to society. It’s really not that hard. It doesn’t mean we should not empathize, it means we should treat them.
And I don’t see how one would even think it’s unecessary to make people undergo psychological treatment for something as harmful as pedophilia. They need help, they need at the minimum psychological support. Of course you can’t force people to go through that, but please don’t compare this to anti homosexual treatments, it is not the same.
This is the core of our disagreement. Pedophilia itself does not harm anyone but the one having to deal with it. Representing pedophiles as a threat to society judges many for the actions of a few. The individuals did not do anything wrong, and they do not deserve rejection for what they are.
This sentiment is, and I am sorry that you don’t like the comparison, the same that people had towards homosexuals for a long time. I am not saying that homosecuality and pedophilia are the same. I am saying the people in both groups face very similar challenges. As far as I know “just not being a pedophile” is not possible for an actual pedophile. The only result you’ll get with that is that people hide in a closet, without getting the help that they could use.
The simple fact that I don’t know that there is a treatment that actually cures pedophilia.
This is not the same as “make people undergo psychological treatment”.
Well which is it, “make people undergo psychological treatment” or " you can’t force people to go through that". You’ve got to pick a line here.
You’ve been pretty vague as to what you want to “make” them do or “not force” them to do or what help you want to get them. Though your sentiment towards pedophilia is similar to what spawend the hellhole of homosexual conversion therapies so please forgive my assumption that you would go into this direction as well.
Until they do… It’s not because they never acted on it that they will never. And I’m pretty sure that if you start to accept pedophilia as “just another minority”, pedophiles all around the world will feel more legitimate and act on it more because hey it’s normal now.
PLUS if you merge them to LGBTQ for instance, it allows more hate towards LGBTQ because people fear (for a good reason) pedophilia. It already is their main argument, with grooming etc. It’s always the children.
There are actual treatments (for reducing libido for instance, like antiandrogens, selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors), group therapies, etc. that seems to help :
Here are some interesting resources on the subject
I agree that I’m a little confused about how it should be approached, because it should be a initiative from the pedophiles and not mandated, but I still think it should be done for every pedophiles.
As a parent, pedophilia is a real concern, and you merging it with homosexuality just make me really angry.
That’s just preemptive
capital(wrong word, my bad! I’ll leave it so the comment below still makes sense) collective punishment. If you want to support that I can’t stop you but I won’t agree with it.Again, noone is advocating for normalising acting on it. Conflating treating pedophiles as humans with a unique struggle with supporting them raping children is not helpful to the discussion.
That is a legitimate concern, insofar as it is a tactical concern for the movement. That does not speak towards the logic of things, as it is only about optics. The opposition lies about the LGBTQ movement, and therefore you want to separate the movement from that minority. This might be valid as a strategy for the movement but it does not mean that pedophiles don’t have very similar struggels as other minorities in LGBTQ.
Again, I am not saying the two are the same. I am saying that people of both groups face similar issues.
They won’t stop you from being a pedophile or cure you. Both help you manage your urges. And I agree that people who struggle with pedophilia should look into these options if they feel they are not able to manage it on their own.
I think this is in part fueled by a (very much understandable!) fear for your children. I would ask you to take a step back and ask yourself if you are being completely rational about this issue.
I mean I kinda would like you to do the same, because you keep misunderstanding me, and it looks more and more like you’re doing it on purpose. Wth are you going on about “preemptive capital punishment” ?I said we need to empathize with them, never talked about punishment, never said we should not treat them as human.
I said we should not treat them as “another minority” because it’s a mental disorder, unlike homosexuality… When I said they should try not being pedophiles anymore, what I meant was they should seek help for fighting their urges because it should never be accepted, as you should not accept psychopaths until they are under treatment. They are both disorders and should be treated as such. Saying they face similar issues is not helping, because those issues are for completely different reasons. Some are legitimate, other aren’t.
I am sorry if this is the impression I am giving you, I promise that is not what is happening here.
I am very sorry that was completely wrong. I meant collective punishment. I’ll edit the comment above accordingly. Obviously you never called for captial punishment.
I would actually disagree with that too. You need to take some care when you interact with them but “not accepting” or “social rejection” is far over the line in my opinion. The people having to deal with this are the ones that can decide how they deal with it unless they have become dangerous to others. And no, just because some have become dangerous does not mean all of them are dangerous.
I disagree with this too. For examples I don’t think discriminating against people that are pedophiles in the jobmarket is better than discriminating against any other minority.
That’s where we shall agree to disagree. We should not discriminate against those who seek help, yes, but if they are not willing to, they should not be near children.
If I understand you correctly, in your opinion something should be categorized as a mental disorder based on whether a behavior is potentially harmful to others?
Homosexuality, a sexual attraction that deviates from the norm - not a mental disorder because it doesn’t cause harm.
Paedophilia, a sexual attraction that deviates from the norm - is a mental disorder because it potentially causes harm.
Seems a bit arbitrary to me. Maybe I’m missing something.
How is that arbitrary ? Harmful => disorder is not that hard to grasp imo.
Anyway I’m not the one that makes that decision :
https://www.msdmanuals.com/professional/psychiatric-disorders/paraphilias-and-paraphilic-disorders/pedophilic-disorder
I did some extra research, and yeah, turns out something being a mental disorder does not depend on whether it involves atypical behaviors or preferences, it depends on whether it causes distress or impairment, or is harmful to the individual or others. Furthermore, the context, intensity, and impact of the behavior is also a deciding factor.
Basically, it’s subjective. It’s a disorder if we decide it’s a disorder.
The main caveat is the the group they try to be included with is associated with “pride” and we can’t endorse pride in pedophillia because it’s immoral. Even if you don’t act on it, you cant be proud of it. I think the idea of encouraging them is nice but the encouragement almost feels like it should be part of a support group which obviously doesn’t help.
I would rather identity and kinks be separated for the sake of the movement but I think there’s arguments behind the difference.
Yes exactly, well put.