At work we somehow landed on the topic of how many holes a human has, which then evolved into a heated discussion on the classic question of how many holes does a straw have.
I think it’s two, but some people are convinced that it’s one, which I just don’t understand. What are your thoughts?
1 ‘hole’ if you can call it that. Imagine if the straw started life as a solid cylinder and you had to bore out the inside to turn it into a straw: if that were the case, you would drill 1 hole all the way through it.
Another analogy is a donut. Would you agree that a donut has just 1 hole? I would say yes. Now stretch that donut vertically untill you have a giant cylinder with a hole in the middle. That’s basically now just a straw. The fact you stretched it doesn’t increase the number of holes it has.
This would mean a straw has a hole, yes. It would be like a donut indeed - donuts are first whole, then have the hole punched out of them. This meets a dictionary definition of a hole (a perforation). A subtractive process has removed an area, leaving a hole.
But straws aren’t manufactured this way, their solid bits are additively formed around the empty area. I personally don’t think this meets the definition.
Your topological argument is strong though - both a donut and straw share the same topological feature, but when we use these math abstractions, things can be a bit weird. For instance, a hollow torus (imagine a creme-filled donut that has not yet had its shell penetrated to fill it) has two holes. One might not expect this since it looks like it still only obviously has one, but the “inner torus” consisting of negative space (that represents the hollow) is itself a valid topological hole as well.
“This meets a dictionary definition of a hole.
But straws aren’t manufactured this way, their solid bits are additively formed around the empty area. I personally don’t think this meets the definition.”
By this logic, how I make a doughnut changes whether it has a hole.
If I make a long string of dough and then connect the ends together and cook it (a forming process) it doesn’t have a hole.
If I cut a hole in a dough disc and then cook (a perforation) it has a hole. Even though the final result is identical?
On the matter of the doughnut: If you make them at home, you’re almost always just rolling a cylinder and then making it a circle. I have never actually punched a hole out of a doughnut. That would mess up the toroidal shape.
But also: So you’re saying a straw has 0 holes?
Maybe she’s not, but I am. An intact straw has zero holes. If you stick a pin in the side, it has one. If you stick a pin all the way through, it has two.
But here’s the thing. Take that doughnut and stretch it until it’s a cube with two square cutouts in it. Stretch in some of the inner walls. Now you have a house, with a door and a window. Now: does the house have two holes - a door and a window - or does it have one hole?
Locally has two extrinsic holes, that is holes relative to things outside and inside the house, globally has one intrinsic hole. We say that the door is a hole respect to the wall no to the house itself. So both the door and the window are holes locally. But we never say the house has holes, we talk about walls and ceilings so globally that house has 1 hole. Another way of thinking it is that if the house can be deformed into a filled doughnut then it can be compressed to a circle and that’s the definition of a 1-hole.
Topologically, still one
You just blew my mind. Thanks.
A strownut if you will
I would eat that
So as you begin to bore, that is one hole. But when you go through the other side, you have in fact made two holes. I think a donut can actually be thought of either as one hole or two holes, or more correctly; two holes that are the same hole.
Back to the straw; if you make another hole in the side of the straw half way up, would it still have one hole? Or two holes? Or three holes?
A bit like thinking of the human digestive tract, most of us would agree that your mouth is a different hole to your anus, but we agree that they are in two ends of the same system
What if you bored from both ends of the cylinder until they meet in the middle?
There would be two holes until, at the moment of contact, it becomes one?
Does the method with which the straw shaft is created influence the number of holes it has?
No, topologically there would be no holes until the moment of contact. This is the same as there being no hole when drilling through from only one side until the surface on the opposing side is broken.
Yes, but topologists can’t tell a doughnut from a coffee cup so they’re clearly insane.
So how does one “dig a hole?” Straight to China? Or whatever is opposite of you?
Topologically, yes. Buy you could also go down a bit, make a lateral tunnel, then pop back up.
So what you are saying is, if I dig a hole that doesn’t go anywhere, then that’s not really a hole?
In topology, yes. It must go through to count.
That’s fascinating. So most of what I would call “holes” are what, in topographical terms, hollows? Depressions?
I don’t even know if they have a name for that since it can simply be undone by stretching the object, which is allowed under topological rules.
Topologically, yes. Coincidentally, “Hole to Nowhere” is the best Talking Heads parody album.
Heh I will have to check that out!
Not only that, but if you pinch it in the middle until the passage closes, could it still be called just one hole?