The burden of proof schtick is cute for formal debate. And generally I try and keep it there. However, I suggest that it relies on being Appealed by Authority and it just kinda doesnt matter in the grand scheme of things. You may feel like a ‘win,’ but surely it also feels quite hollow ;]
Good call on the ‘slippery slope,’ tho! I thought it was more amusing than other stuff. For instance, I often hear people championing to lower the voting age. This would categorically produce less knowedgable voters, where knowledge is generally a function of time and experience (No, I dont have a source for that, lol). The point being that we dont let just anybody vote. Your take, thus far, shows no restraint at all. So…
Why shouldnt Canadians have a say?! They live right next to us! They share (many) of our values?! Sure, they’re not Americans, but we’re a melting pot!!1!.. And so on.
So your entire argument so far boils down to “I have zero sources or evidence for any of this, but it feels like this is right if you don’t think too much about it.”
I’ve said literally nothing about who should be eligible to vote, other than saying that limiting it to just people who have children is a bad idea. Not sure why you keep acting like I’m suggesting minors and foreigners should vote. It’s very obvious you are trying to create my argument for me here and it’s just not working.
So anyway, you’ve added nothing to this discussion except demonstrate that owning a thesaurus doesn’t win a debate for you. Let me know if you ever actually have tangible evidence of anything you are arguing here, otherwise this discussion is pointless and based on nothing more than your feelings (or as you call, intuition…woah).
Its funny, because if you look all the way back, I posed a simple straight-forward rationale and you responded effectively as ‘Some people have kids and suck, some don’t but are cool.’ Its not exactly empirical six-sigma-significance science here! I dont use a thesaurus, and Im also not normlly a pedant. But you’re going to make me say it-- and I hate to do it-- The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. And, again, studies are all an appeal to authority anyway, which is fallacious reasoning. But whatever. You totally got me :p
What I have been trying to do is get you to agree that some people ought to be ineligible. I have been rambling about maximums, the ideal of what voting could be. Yet you have put no minimum limit. I still dont know why you think its weird if Canadians could vote in the US election. Newborns on soil? Why not, they’re Americans? Its less that Im making your argument and that you haven’t the candor to explain your (totally scientific) rationale, so Im attempting to pull it out of you :]
Added nothing?! This thread IS the discussion. Its the other side of the table. Everyone prior was just in a circle-jerk.
Holy shit dude, you seem like the kind of guy that just likes to hear themselves talk.
What you’ve tried to do is shift the topic into whatever direction you can to deflect from the very simple fact that not only is there zero evidence to support the claim that only people with children should vote, but even on the surface level it makes no sense and the rationale you provided is flawed because it’s based on complete assumptions you are calling intuition.
I don’t care about your thoughts on suppressing voters outside of this specific scenario. I never did. The fact that “people outside the US don’t need representation inside the US government” leaves you still wondering why I don’t think Canadians should be able to vote in US elections makes me question your intention of even comprehending the basics of what we are talking about.
Let me be clear. Having a child to vote is enforcing a very high bar to vote. Its costly in time and finances. It’s an 18+ year commitment. There are alreadt existing limitations to vote; Nationality, age, criminal status. These are, presumably, cool with you. Yet they are exclusionary. This begs questions. I gave several reasons why Canada maybe should: Locality, similar culture, trade benefits, deepen diplomatic ties… Why is it cool to keep Canada out? Say something, lol.
Here’s a study that shows that nonparents use drugs at an increased rate to parents. This is emblematic of forward-thinking… Saving money, being more present, blah blah blah. Its boring. And its not going to convince you. Because its boring and doesnt speak to your intuitions. Because its boring. I can dig up more corroborating stuff that won’t appeal to you-- because its homework-- or we can have a discussion.
I dont know what kind of eViDEncE you expect there to be to satisfy you. I think you just carry the vanilla position and assume its correct, which makes it effectively unfalsifiable. “It is what it is.”
wtf are you talking about? You can be broke as shit with no job and have as many kids as you want with zero intentions of getting your shit together. Happens all the time actually. You don’t even need to stick around for 18 years.
The limitations that are set today are literally the most basic that can be - be a taxpaying member of the society. The criminal status differs by state.
You are saying they are presumably cool with me which is the root of the issue in all your arguments - you bring up weakly related points and try to act like I’m they are part of any argument I’ve made so you can argue your made up points instead of the very basic thing we are discussing.
You realize this though so you dig up some study about MARIJUANA use in adults (if you are actually taking this seriously you’d then go on to prove that using marijuana makes you a bad person), but immediately realize how weak this is as well so you write it off for me by saying it won’t be enough to convince me (for the wrong reasons, of course by saying I’m uninterested rather than the fact that it’s just incredibly weak…you aren’t ready to admit yet that there still is no argument to be made here).
Then you wrap it up nicely with your trademark segue into explaining how well you’ve created fake arguments, pinned them on me, and labeled them as a some sort of logical fallacy. All the while my position hasn’t changed once - show me actual evidence this is a good idea or there is no discussion to be had.
Notice how you cannot asnwer questions directly posed to you. The truth is, bud, you haven’t made an argument yet. I probably got you pegged-- You dont have strong feelings about civics, you have strong feelings about Twitter/Musk. Its alright, but dont think you’ve done anything but flounder there with your arms crossed thinking Ill go away. WHY shouldnt Canadians be allowed to vote? Why are the current limitations cool (or not)? Make an argument, lol. Say something. Surprise me :p
Ah, proving me right. Sealioning for EviDenCe then denying it when its linked. “Cant provide me ANY evidence!” Classic Reddit. I dont think the study is boring because its weak, I think its boring because its from pubmed. Heres some more truly mind blowing research on drug use. You’ll be shocked and fascinated, Im sure. Marijuana is bad for short term memory? Why, its basically synonymous with short-sightedness… Dont tell me that instant-gratification isnt a virtue! No!
I think you’re right that my negative reaction to the study sort of poisoned the water. Yet I dont believe for a second that a PubMed study ever changed your mind about anything. I dont think you understand why I linked to the Replication Crisis. And I think you believe there is a study for every imginable topic. Its… its… hahahaha :]
Oof. Delusional. Not sure why I’ve even wasted as much time as I have replying to you. The projection claiming I’ve made no argument when you are supposed to be the one arguing for why only parents should vote…lmao
And no, I don’t care about twitter or musk at all to be honest. I’ve never had a twitter account and I don’t have strong feelings on Musk other than the obvious fact that he’s clearly not as smart as he thinks he is. So you’ve got me pegged wrong there, good work.
I have actually responded why Canadians shouldn’t vote but apparently it was too complex of an answer for you. But yeah I’m not going to just sit here arguing random points you feel like bringing up because you still have zero argument for what we are actually discussing.
Your answer for why only parents should be able to vote so far has been “why not let Canadians vote?” Which is so fucking stupid and when I point that out you go “see?? You can’t even argue why not only parents should be able to vote by arguing why Canadians shouldn’t be able to vote! Logical fallacies!” I haven’t even asked for a single study. I’ve asked for evidence. It can be anything. The best you have so far is a study that shows people slow down a little bit on smoking weed when they have kids that even you admitted is nothing.
This conversation has essentially been that image of the pigeon knocking over all the chess pieces and shitting on the board while claiming they won. Congrats, pigeon.
Jeez D00d, your comprehension levels… Yeesh. You STILL have made no reasoned argument as to WHY Canada shouldn’t be allowed. You just said that ‘it doesnt effect them.’ I told you why it does. You are now insisting that you made an attempt. You didnt :] Again, if its so easy then do it.
My positon was all the way at the top. Its that ‘parents are (more) invested in the future.’ Its pretty simple, tbh. You asked for eVidEncE, I gave you something corroborating (nonparents use drugs at higher rates which insinuates a lack of investment toward the future). You didnt think it was enough, so I gave you more (how drug use lessens functional memory, something parents need a lot). Now you’re saying I never provided any evidence. Honk honk.
Okay heres some more evidence: "Men are more likely than women to give no parental investment to their children, and the children of low-investing fathers are more likely to give less parental investment to their own children… Daughters of absent fathers are more likely to seek short-term partners, and one theory explains this as a preference for outside (non-partner) social support because of the perceived uncertain future and uncertain availability of committing partners in a high-stress environment. [Emphasis added]
Apparently babies will innately understand the future-investment concept. But will you? :p
The burden of proof schtick is cute for formal debate. And generally I try and keep it there. However, I suggest that it relies on being Appealed by Authority and it just kinda doesnt matter in the grand scheme of things. You may feel like a ‘win,’ but surely it also feels quite hollow ;]
Good call on the ‘slippery slope,’ tho! I thought it was more amusing than other stuff. For instance, I often hear people championing to lower the voting age. This would categorically produce less knowedgable voters, where knowledge is generally a function of time and experience (No, I dont have a source for that, lol). The point being that we dont let just anybody vote. Your take, thus far, shows no restraint at all. So…
Why shouldnt Canadians have a say?! They live right next to us! They share (many) of our values?! Sure, they’re not Americans, but we’re a melting pot!!1!.. And so on.
So your entire argument so far boils down to “I have zero sources or evidence for any of this, but it feels like this is right if you don’t think too much about it.”
I’ve said literally nothing about who should be eligible to vote, other than saying that limiting it to just people who have children is a bad idea. Not sure why you keep acting like I’m suggesting minors and foreigners should vote. It’s very obvious you are trying to create my argument for me here and it’s just not working.
So anyway, you’ve added nothing to this discussion except demonstrate that owning a thesaurus doesn’t win a debate for you. Let me know if you ever actually have tangible evidence of anything you are arguing here, otherwise this discussion is pointless and based on nothing more than your feelings (or as you call, intuition…woah).
Its funny, because if you look all the way back, I posed a simple straight-forward rationale and you responded effectively as ‘Some people have kids and suck, some don’t but are cool.’ Its not exactly empirical six-sigma-significance science here! I dont use a thesaurus, and Im also not normlly a pedant. But you’re going to make me say it-- and I hate to do it-- The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. And, again, studies are all an appeal to authority anyway, which is fallacious reasoning. But whatever. You totally got me :p
What I have been trying to do is get you to agree that some people ought to be ineligible. I have been rambling about maximums, the ideal of what voting could be. Yet you have put no minimum limit. I still dont know why you think its weird if Canadians could vote in the US election. Newborns on soil? Why not, they’re Americans? Its less that Im making your argument and that you haven’t the candor to explain your (totally scientific) rationale, so Im attempting to pull it out of you :]
Added nothing?! This thread IS the discussion. Its the other side of the table. Everyone prior was just in a circle-jerk.
Holy shit dude, you seem like the kind of guy that just likes to hear themselves talk.
What you’ve tried to do is shift the topic into whatever direction you can to deflect from the very simple fact that not only is there zero evidence to support the claim that only people with children should vote, but even on the surface level it makes no sense and the rationale you provided is flawed because it’s based on complete assumptions you are calling intuition.
I don’t care about your thoughts on suppressing voters outside of this specific scenario. I never did. The fact that “people outside the US don’t need representation inside the US government” leaves you still wondering why I don’t think Canadians should be able to vote in US elections makes me question your intention of even comprehending the basics of what we are talking about.
Let me be clear. Having a child to vote is enforcing a very high bar to vote. Its costly in time and finances. It’s an 18+ year commitment. There are alreadt existing limitations to vote; Nationality, age, criminal status. These are, presumably, cool with you. Yet they are exclusionary. This begs questions. I gave several reasons why Canada maybe should: Locality, similar culture, trade benefits, deepen diplomatic ties… Why is it cool to keep Canada out? Say something, lol.
Here’s a study that shows that nonparents use drugs at an increased rate to parents. This is emblematic of forward-thinking… Saving money, being more present, blah blah blah. Its boring. And its not going to convince you. Because its boring and doesnt speak to your intuitions. Because its boring. I can dig up more corroborating stuff that won’t appeal to you-- because its homework-- or we can have a discussion.
I dont know what kind of eViDEncE you expect there to be to satisfy you. I think you just carry the vanilla position and assume its correct, which makes it effectively unfalsifiable. “It is what it is.”
wtf are you talking about? You can be broke as shit with no job and have as many kids as you want with zero intentions of getting your shit together. Happens all the time actually. You don’t even need to stick around for 18 years.
The limitations that are set today are literally the most basic that can be - be a taxpaying member of the society. The criminal status differs by state.
You are saying they are presumably cool with me which is the root of the issue in all your arguments - you bring up weakly related points and try to act like I’m they are part of any argument I’ve made so you can argue your made up points instead of the very basic thing we are discussing.
You realize this though so you dig up some study about MARIJUANA use in adults (if you are actually taking this seriously you’d then go on to prove that using marijuana makes you a bad person), but immediately realize how weak this is as well so you write it off for me by saying it won’t be enough to convince me (for the wrong reasons, of course by saying I’m uninterested rather than the fact that it’s just incredibly weak…you aren’t ready to admit yet that there still is no argument to be made here).
Then you wrap it up nicely with your trademark segue into explaining how well you’ve created fake arguments, pinned them on me, and labeled them as a some sort of logical fallacy. All the while my position hasn’t changed once - show me actual evidence this is a good idea or there is no discussion to be had.
Nice.
Notice how you cannot asnwer questions directly posed to you. The truth is, bud, you haven’t made an argument yet. I probably got you pegged-- You dont have strong feelings about civics, you have strong feelings about Twitter/Musk. Its alright, but dont think you’ve done anything but flounder there with your arms crossed thinking Ill go away. WHY shouldnt Canadians be allowed to vote? Why are the current limitations cool (or not)? Make an argument, lol. Say something. Surprise me :p
Ah, proving me right. Sealioning for EviDenCe then denying it when its linked. “Cant provide me ANY evidence!” Classic Reddit. I dont think the study is boring because its weak, I think its boring because its from pubmed. Heres some more truly mind blowing research on drug use. You’ll be shocked and fascinated, Im sure. Marijuana is bad for short term memory? Why, its basically synonymous with short-sightedness… Dont tell me that instant-gratification isnt a virtue! No!
I think you’re right that my negative reaction to the study sort of poisoned the water. Yet I dont believe for a second that a PubMed study ever changed your mind about anything. I dont think you understand why I linked to the Replication Crisis. And I think you believe there is a study for every imginable topic. Its… its… hahahaha :]
Oof. Delusional. Not sure why I’ve even wasted as much time as I have replying to you. The projection claiming I’ve made no argument when you are supposed to be the one arguing for why only parents should vote…lmao
And no, I don’t care about twitter or musk at all to be honest. I’ve never had a twitter account and I don’t have strong feelings on Musk other than the obvious fact that he’s clearly not as smart as he thinks he is. So you’ve got me pegged wrong there, good work.
I have actually responded why Canadians shouldn’t vote but apparently it was too complex of an answer for you. But yeah I’m not going to just sit here arguing random points you feel like bringing up because you still have zero argument for what we are actually discussing.
Your answer for why only parents should be able to vote so far has been “why not let Canadians vote?” Which is so fucking stupid and when I point that out you go “see?? You can’t even argue why not only parents should be able to vote by arguing why Canadians shouldn’t be able to vote! Logical fallacies!” I haven’t even asked for a single study. I’ve asked for evidence. It can be anything. The best you have so far is a study that shows people slow down a little bit on smoking weed when they have kids that even you admitted is nothing.
This conversation has essentially been that image of the pigeon knocking over all the chess pieces and shitting on the board while claiming they won. Congrats, pigeon.
Jeez D00d, your comprehension levels… Yeesh. You STILL have made no reasoned argument as to WHY Canada shouldn’t be allowed. You just said that ‘it doesnt effect them.’ I told you why it does. You are now insisting that you made an attempt. You didnt :] Again, if its so easy then do it.
My positon was all the way at the top. Its that ‘parents are (more) invested in the future.’ Its pretty simple, tbh. You asked for eVidEncE, I gave you something corroborating (nonparents use drugs at higher rates which insinuates a lack of investment toward the future). You didnt think it was enough, so I gave you more (how drug use lessens functional memory, something parents need a lot). Now you’re saying I never provided any evidence. Honk honk.
Okay heres some more evidence: "Men are more likely than women to give no parental investment to their children, and the children of low-investing fathers are more likely to give less parental investment to their own children… Daughters of absent fathers are more likely to seek short-term partners, and one theory explains this as a preference for outside (non-partner) social support because of the perceived uncertain future and uncertain availability of committing partners in a high-stress environment. [Emphasis added]
Apparently babies will innately understand the future-investment concept. But will you? :p