It’s only a “bigoted stereotype” if you think their portrayal was an intentional effort to make them look bad. I do not agree that was the case.
Like so much TV of that era, it was the trope of throwing two completely incompatible things into a room and watching hijinks ensue.
But in Star Trek fashion, at the end of the episode, both sides gained a little awareness about themselves and developed a little tolerance for the others. (Also, I really like the leader of the group because he connects Star Trek to Doctor Who.)
“The Irish are drunks” is pretty damn bigoted. And that was the implication.
I’m far from the only one who thinks so. Colm Meany agrees.
Colm Meaney (Transporter Chief Miles Edward O’Brien) was reportedly not too thrilled by the story’s depiction of Irish characters. Being little more than a bit player, he had no say in scripts. Years later, in If Wishes Were Horses (1993), Meaney was a series regular, and was given a script focusing on O’Brien’s Irishness in a condescending way. He had the “Wishes” story rewritten to eliminate, or at least mitigate, that slant.
Ugh, season 1 of Deep Space Nine is another matter entirely (and a completely different production staff).
My take on the TNG episode is THOSE Irish were drunks. Just like THOSE Irish were farmers. Or like Picard’s family. THOSE Frenchmen were vintners. Another stereotype that seems to bother fans less than Picard’s British accent.
Almost 40 years have passed since then, and we’ve certainly matured about how we represent ethnic groups. But the primary motivation of the production staff back then was ‘how little money can we spend to make an episode?’
I still want an indepth explanation of the people who work on his farm picking grapes. They have access to every necessity and luxury for free but they’re doing manual labour on a giant vineyard. I think Picard even says they’ve worked for the family for generations, did they do this before the post scarcity economy? Do the not have land of their own? Which brings up the question how does inheritance and land sale work if as Picard says to cryogenic-Johnny Cash they’ve moved beyond money?
Honestly it seems a nice life, role-playing preindustrial farming with zero stakes because you’ll never go hungry no matter what happens. I think those peoples lives are probably more interesting than most the stuff that happens on the enterprise.
They’re not “space Jews”. Most of the actors that portray Ferengi are Jewish. Also Armin Shimerman, the most famous Ferengi actor, says it’s mostly Americans that think the Ferengi are Jewish.
“In America, people ask ‘Do the Ferengi represent Jews?’ In England, they ask ‘Do the Ferengi represent the Irish?’ In Australia, they ask if the Ferengi represent the Chinese,” Shimerman said. “The Ferengi represent the outcast… it’s the person who lives among us that we don’t fully understand.”
The small, hunched over, sharp-teethed peoples obsessed with money (to the selfish and wonton destruction of any conventional conception of cohesive functional societal constructs) may or may not be associated with the Nazi Germany stereotype for Jews.
Paramount having a Jewish actor explain that it’s an allegory for any non-specific “out group” may or or may not be a PR response to the questions around if the small, hunched over, sharp-teethed people obsessed with money (to the selfish and wonton destruction of any conventional conception of cohesive functional societal constructs) may or not be associated with the Nazi Germany stereotype for Jews.
Edit: And for the record, I’m not from the USA, England, or Australia. Culturally closest to Australia, I suppose. But the point stands that there are local cultural prejudices that probably do inform interpretation, but that doesn’t necessarily negate culturally explosive prejudiced characteristics that were generated by the cultural juggernaut that was Nazi Germany. Just because Australians might think Chinese, doesn’t mean the American writers weren’t modelling after American stereotypes adopted from Nazi Germany
So you think the writers of Star Trek TNG (in the 80s) were secretly all former Nazis (or neo-Nazis)? The show is progressive in all other ways, so I guess these are progressive Nazis?
Which is more likely, that you are right and progressive neo-Nazis secretly based the Ferengi on Jewish stereotypes? Or that the Jewish actors who literally wore the makeup and spoke the lines are right? Hmmm…
I do think the writers, like all people, are vulnerable to application of stereotypes.
I do think that nobody exists in a binary state of progressive or regressive, either.
I also think that the two options you present are not mutually exclusive. The writers may have drawn upon what they maybe didn’t even consciously recognize to be ethnic stereotypes. The Jewish actors are free to communicate whatever interpretation they choose for whatever reason they choose.
I guess I’d challenge you with a few questions of my own: do you believe that being a member of a community confers upon you absolute discretion on if an institution of which you belong is racist? If so, do you accept African American Republicans claim that the RNC is not racist? What weight do you give Caitlin Jenner’s assertion that the RNC is not transphobic? How do you reconsile that with members of those communities who say they are racist and transphobic?
Do you believe that actors always honestly communicate their own personal views regarding the projects on which they work? Do you believe there could be a conflict of interest should they speak negatively about their employers? Do you believe that it’s possible that some people, when put in a position of internal conflict, may construct an interpretation of reality in which they are morally absolved of the harm their employment might have? Do you believe everyone at Chevron, Lockheed Martin, or Nestle would tell you that in the course of their employment that they participate in harm?
There’s unenlightened people and there just bigoted stereotypes. This is the latter.
It’s only a “bigoted stereotype” if you think their portrayal was an intentional effort to make them look bad. I do not agree that was the case.
Like so much TV of that era, it was the trope of throwing two completely incompatible things into a room and watching hijinks ensue.
But in Star Trek fashion, at the end of the episode, both sides gained a little awareness about themselves and developed a little tolerance for the others. (Also, I really like the leader of the group because he connects Star Trek to Doctor Who.)
“The Irish are drunks” is pretty damn bigoted. And that was the implication.
I’m far from the only one who thinks so. Colm Meany agrees.
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0708838/trivia/
Ugh, season 1 of Deep Space Nine is another matter entirely (and a completely different production staff).
My take on the TNG episode is THOSE Irish were drunks. Just like THOSE Irish were farmers. Or like Picard’s family. THOSE Frenchmen were vintners. Another stereotype that seems to bother fans less than Picard’s British accent.
Almost 40 years have passed since then, and we’ve certainly matured about how we represent ethnic groups. But the primary motivation of the production staff back then was ‘how little money can we spend to make an episode?’
I still want an indepth explanation of the people who work on his farm picking grapes. They have access to every necessity and luxury for free but they’re doing manual labour on a giant vineyard. I think Picard even says they’ve worked for the family for generations, did they do this before the post scarcity economy? Do the not have land of their own? Which brings up the question how does inheritance and land sale work if as Picard says to cryogenic-Johnny Cash they’ve moved beyond money?
Honestly it seems a nice life, role-playing preindustrial farming with zero stakes because you’ll never go hungry no matter what happens. I think those peoples lives are probably more interesting than most the stuff that happens on the enterprise.
I agree w/ you.
That being said, as bad as this was, TNG Ferengi are straight up covetous space Jews.
And there was no mitigation of the distaste of the crew for Ferengi. It’s like “Captain, I don’t know how I feel about having a Ferengi on board”
“Yes, I know, but we have to let him be here, but hopefully we can get rid of him as soon as possible”
They’re not “space Jews”. Most of the actors that portray Ferengi are Jewish. Also Armin Shimerman, the most famous Ferengi actor, says it’s mostly Americans that think the Ferengi are Jewish.
https://www.player.one/are-ferengi-jewish-star-trek-deep-space-nine-actor-armin-shimerman-answers-554155
The small, hunched over, sharp-teethed peoples obsessed with money (to the selfish and wonton destruction of any conventional conception of cohesive functional societal constructs) may or may not be associated with the Nazi Germany stereotype for Jews.
Paramount having a Jewish actor explain that it’s an allegory for any non-specific “out group” may or or may not be a PR response to the questions around if the small, hunched over, sharp-teethed people obsessed with money (to the selfish and wonton destruction of any conventional conception of cohesive functional societal constructs) may or not be associated with the Nazi Germany stereotype for Jews.
Edit: And for the record, I’m not from the USA, England, or Australia. Culturally closest to Australia, I suppose. But the point stands that there are local cultural prejudices that probably do inform interpretation, but that doesn’t necessarily negate culturally explosive prejudiced characteristics that were generated by the cultural juggernaut that was Nazi Germany. Just because Australians might think Chinese, doesn’t mean the American writers weren’t modelling after American stereotypes adopted from Nazi Germany
So you think the writers of Star Trek TNG (in the 80s) were secretly all former Nazis (or neo-Nazis)? The show is progressive in all other ways, so I guess these are progressive Nazis?
Which is more likely, that you are right and progressive neo-Nazis secretly based the Ferengi on Jewish stereotypes? Or that the Jewish actors who literally wore the makeup and spoke the lines are right? Hmmm…
I don’t think the writers were neo Nazis.
I do think the writers, like all people, are vulnerable to application of stereotypes.
I do think that nobody exists in a binary state of progressive or regressive, either.
I also think that the two options you present are not mutually exclusive. The writers may have drawn upon what they maybe didn’t even consciously recognize to be ethnic stereotypes. The Jewish actors are free to communicate whatever interpretation they choose for whatever reason they choose.
I guess I’d challenge you with a few questions of my own: do you believe that being a member of a community confers upon you absolute discretion on if an institution of which you belong is racist? If so, do you accept African American Republicans claim that the RNC is not racist? What weight do you give Caitlin Jenner’s assertion that the RNC is not transphobic? How do you reconsile that with members of those communities who say they are racist and transphobic?
Do you believe that actors always honestly communicate their own personal views regarding the projects on which they work? Do you believe there could be a conflict of interest should they speak negatively about their employers? Do you believe that it’s possible that some people, when put in a position of internal conflict, may construct an interpretation of reality in which they are morally absolved of the harm their employment might have? Do you believe everyone at Chevron, Lockheed Martin, or Nestle would tell you that in the course of their employment that they participate in harm?
I provided a first hand source and your rebuttal is “No, it conflicts with what I thought up on my own.”
Obviously nothing is going to convince you that you’re wrong.
My rebuttal is that your firsthand source isn’t actually authoritative, and I explained exactly why.
I did you the honour of responding to literally every single point you made.
You have done me the dishonour of responding to none of mine and then attacking me personally.