@JohnDClay@turkishdelight Zenz repurposes the pro-life argument that reduced birth rates are genocide to make it look like Xinjiang getting free healthcare & women who had 3 kids already receiving tubal ligations/ etc. is genocide the same way KKK guys think modernity is white genocide. China literally trained these people to be bilingual realtors and stuff like that, it wasn’t even a mega trade program or something. They got people to white collar shit Xinjiang is rich
@conditional_soup If you’ve heard of the one child policy here’s a fun fact none of you “China watchers” know. Most regions and/or minority groups did not get affected. If you were Han or anything in Tibet, or a minority any placd, you could be fruitful and multiply. Just an example of how China deliberately gives minority groups boosted democratic representation, healthcare access, training, and cultural representation. Which is what responsible nations should do (glaring at indian res)
Huh? Pretty sure Guantanamo Bay is still open to this day. Not on the same scale nowadays, sure; but the CCP never claimed freedom as part of its core values either.
Reading comprehension really is a struggle sometimes. They specifically mentioned scale in their comment. Also, I kinda feel like being open about genocide doesn’t make it better.
They also compared Japanese U.S. internment camps during WWII to the current suppression of Uyghurs in China so maybe take what they say with a grain of salt.
Edit: Looks like I got banned for my original comment, so I’ll answer in an edit:
I think they are comparable in that they are horrible treatment of minorities. I think the concentration camps of Japanese Americans was out of extreme xenophobia. I think the reeducation camps are out desire to stamp out any possibility of independence movements. So not very similar, but both very terrible.
Acknowledging that the US has been the leader of the imperial core — the countries that have been colonizing the rest of the world for 500 years now — since WW2 is the realistic, materialist view.
Only difference now is that it’s changed form to mainly the economic subjugation (neocolonialism) of “former” colonies through unequal exchange under capitalism rather than direct military subjugation — though the US still has a major actual settler colony committing a genocide in Palestine right now.
Any country that tries to escape this system (by nationalizing its resources to prevent extraction by unequal exchange, usually by establishing a socialist state) is sanctioned (DPRK, Vietnam in the past, Zimbabwe etc), embargoed (Cuba), overthrown (Chile, Burkina Faso etc), or invaded (Vietnam, Libya, Korea, etc).
Citation needed on that USSR claim, Lucas has only, to my knowledge, spoken of the USSR with respect to the inspiration he took from their film industry. He’s outright stated that the Empire is the US and the Rebels the Viet Cong, plus there are the obvious allusions to the Nazis with Stormtroopers and the color of the Empire’s unirorms, but to my knowledge nothing connecting to the USSR.
Believe it or not, Lucas is capable of finding both positives and negatives about both the US and the USSR.
Most of the aesthetic of Empire architecture is inspired by brutalist Soviet architecture, and ceremony for the Emperor’s arrival was inspired by October Revolution Day military parades.
This, I disagree with. The USSR was Marxist-Leninist and run by Soviets, not a fascist millitary dictatorship. Whether or not you or I believe the USSR was truly democratic or a betrayal of Socialist values is of little consequence when compared to the vastly different structure of Nazi Germany, which was a blend of corporations and an ethno-state.
The Empire appears to be more similar to Nazi Germany, where there exists a blend of corporations with a totalitarian state, rather than a command economy centered around worker councils.
Even if it was, using media to explain ideas of politics isn’t new nor is it bad. Like how is using Star Trek or Star Wars or any other piece of media that the public is familiar with on a cultural level inherently a “Gotcha!” to an argument/debate?
“Hey this book that was taught in classrooms has some parallels to current events.”
“Wow, you’re using your understandings of the world around you to make commentary? Weirdo.”
That just sounds like you think people who can critically analyze media and the world suck. You must be a very boring person to have a conversation with, I can tell from this brief interaction.
I acknowledge the US has been the “imperial core”. The thing I take issue with is the finger pointing.
As if the United States is unique in seeking out and pursuing its interests. China and Russia may not be the “imperial core” but, all nations will do what’s in their best interest.
That’s the flaw with nations, the campist lens of “America bad, Russia and China good” isn’t productive. Das all I’m saying.
No other country controls the global financial system like the US, and imperial core countries in general, does through its dollar hegemony and global monopolies.
Which is natural, since the entire modern world, its institutions and trade systems, are built on the past few centuries of brutal colonization of the rest of the world by western europe and japan.
But they don’t, so talking about those "what if"s are pointless. China’s current interests — and, broadly speaking, those of capitalist Russia even after the USSR has been overthrown — are mostly in line with the Global South’s against imperial core countries. There’s a reason sentiment like this is common across the developing world.
Many of western countries’ victims, like Cuba, DPRK, Burkina Faso, Palestine, etc., would not be able to function right now, or perhaps even exist, if they did not have China and Russia’s support. Of course, alot of them like Libya aren’t able to function anymore.
At the core of all of this is the US attempt to remain the world’s hegemonic power, by augmenting military alliances around the world to contain or defeat China and Russia. It’s a dangerous, delusional, and outmoded idea. The US has a mere 4.2% of the world population, and now a mere 16% of world GDP (measured at international prices). In fact, the combined GDP of the G7 is now less than that of the BRICS (Brazil, Russia, India, China, and South Africa), while the G7 population is just 6 percent of the world compared with 41 percent in the BRICS. Source
I once thought that the US had made mistakes but generally was trying to do the right thing. But the more I read and learned history, the more damning it was towards America.
Well, not “communist” capital C, but certainly socialist, or at least with socialist leanings.
For example private land ownership isn’t really a thing in China, making essentially all natural resources defacto state-owned. It’s actually a really interesting idea IMO.
America is everthing Americans claim China and Russia to be.
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Is there a country in the Middle East that America hasn’t bombed or invaded?
Is there one that is part of the US now?
Occupied territories yes.
And there’s a US colony committing a genocide in Palestine right now.
There are still American soldiers in most of them.
@JohnDClay @turkishdelight Zenz repurposes the pro-life argument that reduced birth rates are genocide to make it look like Xinjiang getting free healthcare & women who had 3 kids already receiving tubal ligations/ etc. is genocide the same way KKK guys think modernity is white genocide. China literally trained these people to be bilingual realtors and stuff like that, it wasn’t even a mega trade program or something. They got people to white collar shit Xinjiang is rich
Were the tubal ligations voluntary?
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@conditional_soup If you’ve heard of the one child policy here’s a fun fact none of you “China watchers” know. Most regions and/or minority groups did not get affected. If you were Han or anything in Tibet, or a minority any placd, you could be fruitful and multiply. Just an example of how China deliberately gives minority groups boosted democratic representation, healthcare access, training, and cultural representation. Which is what responsible nations should do (glaring at indian res)
@conditional_soup *Urumqi god this charlimit is so awful I can do 5000 but 500 is grueling. Sorry for triple tapping ya
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Huh? Pretty sure Guantanamo Bay is still open to this day. Not on the same scale nowadays, sure; but the CCP never claimed freedom as part of its core values either.
Reading comprehension really is a struggle sometimes. They specifically mentioned scale in their comment. Also, I kinda feel like being open about genocide doesn’t make it better.
They also compared Japanese U.S. internment camps during WWII to the current suppression of Uyghurs in China so maybe take what they say with a grain of salt.
You think reeducation camps to kill a culture are different?
You think Japanese camps were to kill a culture?
I think the camps for the Uyghurs are.
Edit: Looks like I got banned for my original comment, so I’ll answer in an edit:
Do you think the current treatment of Uyghurs by China is comparable to treatment of Japanese people in US internment camps during WWII?
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It’s an international poker game and everyone is cheating. To see politics through a campist lens helps no one.
Acknowledging that the US has been the leader of the imperial core — the countries that have been colonizing the rest of the world for 500 years now — since WW2 is the realistic, materialist view.
Only difference now is that it’s changed form to mainly the economic subjugation (neocolonialism) of “former” colonies through unequal exchange under capitalism rather than direct military subjugation — though the US still has a major actual settler colony committing a genocide in Palestine right now.
Any country that tries to escape this system (by nationalizing its resources to prevent extraction by unequal exchange, usually by establishing a socialist state) is sanctioned (DPRK, Vietnam in the past, Zimbabwe etc), embargoed (Cuba), overthrown (Chile, Burkina Faso etc), or invaded (Vietnam, Libya, Korea, etc).
“Imperial Core” is from Star Wars and sounds like a cringe LARP.
Well, the empire from Star Wars was based on the US empire after all, and the rebels were based on the Viet Cong.
That’s partially true, the Empire was based on inspiration from the US, Nazi Germany, and USSR. The rebels are of course the Viet Cong.
Thank god the “empire” funded and supported the rebels against the empire lmao
The Viet Cong are not the only rebels to have ever existed, the USSR is well known to use excessive military force against its own rebels.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_in_the_Soviet_Union
How much force would have been appropriate then, do you think?
Also, NATOpedia article lmao
Citation needed on that USSR claim, Lucas has only, to my knowledge, spoken of the USSR with respect to the inspiration he took from their film industry. He’s outright stated that the Empire is the US and the Rebels the Viet Cong, plus there are the obvious allusions to the Nazis with Stormtroopers and the color of the Empire’s unirorms, but to my knowledge nothing connecting to the USSR.
Return of the Jedi special edition commentary.
Believe it or not, Lucas is capable of finding both positives and negatives about both the US and the USSR.
Most of the aesthetic of Empire architecture is inspired by brutalist Soviet architecture, and ceremony for the Emperor’s arrival was inspired by October Revolution Day military parades.
Thanks for the answer, any links or quotes? Can’t find anything online.
The USSR was also a fascist dictatorship, the actual bureaucratic structure of the Galactic Empire much more closely resembles the USSR.
Edit: good points were made, it’s overly reductive to call the USSR a facist dictatorship
This, I disagree with. The USSR was Marxist-Leninist and run by Soviets, not a fascist millitary dictatorship. Whether or not you or I believe the USSR was truly democratic or a betrayal of Socialist values is of little consequence when compared to the vastly different structure of Nazi Germany, which was a blend of corporations and an ethno-state.
The Empire appears to be more similar to Nazi Germany, where there exists a blend of corporations with a totalitarian state, rather than a command economy centered around worker councils.
It is literally from anti-colonial theory lmao
Was this theory developed after Star Wars was already released?
Star Wars was loosely based on it so no wonder you’ll see parallels.
Even if it was, using media to explain ideas of politics isn’t new nor is it bad. Like how is using Star Trek or Star Wars or any other piece of media that the public is familiar with on a cultural level inherently a “Gotcha!” to an argument/debate?
“Hey this book that was taught in classrooms has some parallels to current events.” “Wow, you’re using your understandings of the world around you to make commentary? Weirdo.”
Everything you said can be true, and it can also still sound like a cringe LARP.
That just sounds like you think people who can critically analyze media and the world suck. You must be a very boring person to have a conversation with, I can tell from this brief interaction.
I acknowledge the US has been the “imperial core”. The thing I take issue with is the finger pointing.
As if the United States is unique in seeking out and pursuing its interests. China and Russia may not be the “imperial core” but, all nations will do what’s in their best interest.
That’s the flaw with nations, the campist lens of “America bad, Russia and China good” isn’t productive. Das all I’m saying.
No other country controls the global financial system like the US, and imperial core countries in general, does through its dollar hegemony and global monopolies.
Which is natural, since the entire modern world, its institutions and trade systems, are built on the past few centuries of brutal colonization of the rest of the world by western europe and japan.
Acknowledging reality isn’t “finger pointing”.
Given the same opportunity would Russia and China not do the same things?
But they don’t, so talking about those "what if"s are pointless. China’s current interests — and, broadly speaking, those of capitalist Russia even after the USSR has been overthrown — are mostly in line with the Global South’s against imperial core countries. There’s a reason sentiment like this is common across the developing world.
Many of western countries’ victims, like Cuba, DPRK, Burkina Faso, Palestine, etc., would not be able to function right now, or perhaps even exist, if they did not have China and Russia’s support. Of course, alot of them like Libya aren’t able to function anymore.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
sentiment like this
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source; check me out at GitHub.
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Some information might change your point of view:
I once thought that the US had made mistakes but generally was trying to do the right thing. But the more I read and learned history, the more damning it was towards America.
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How so?
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I don’t think America is communist.
Neither is China.
Well, not “communist” capital C, but certainly socialist, or at least with socialist leanings.
For example private land ownership isn’t really a thing in China, making essentially all natural resources defacto state-owned. It’s actually a really interesting idea IMO.
Are you illiterate? That is the whole fucking point of my reply. x2
neither is China
Are you illiterate? That is the whole fucking point of my reply.