Note: This is sure as shit not meant to downplay or deny Israel’s ongoing genocide. Only to point out the absurdity of some online leftists in simping for Hamas and expressing disbelief that far-right theocrats with a history of committing terrible crimes would commit terrible crimes.
I saw that, which is why I didn’t label the character “OP.” It was intended more of a response in general, not a specific criticism of you.
Ah.
In my view it’s rare that anyone really ‘simps for Hamas’, they are the leading militant group in Gaza opposing the Israeli state though so if there are victories against IDF forces it’s usually going to be under that umbrella, and praising a victory against IDF is not the same as praising past terror attacks. I’ve never heard anyone confused that they are communist. There are Marxist-Leninist groups in Palestine though, like the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine.
What are you talking about? It is a conflict between two parties and everybody knows that things have to be black and white!!
I demand to know which of the two are the good guys!
By creating and attacking a strawman here you’re distracting from the important points. Hamas is a direct response to the oppression of the Palestinian people by Israel. It’s classic blowback and communists are just pointing out the obvious here. You can disagree that Hamas is deserving of critical support in the context of the current conflict, but if you ignore the conditions that led to Oct 7th and the fallout since you are taking the wrong lesson away from this issue and someday will be found on the wrong side of history.
You also have to recognize that there’s no line between Palestinians and Hamas. I don’t mean that it’s hard to find. I mean there isn’t one.
72% of Palestinians believe the attack on Israel was “correct”. And presumably some of the remainder are smart enough to not admit to that.
Hamas still enjoys wide, wide support among Palestinians, for some valid reasons.
72% of Palestinians believe the attack on Israel was “correct”.
This is only because it was. And I’m really sad to say it, but it definitely was “correct”.
Listen. Palestinians are fighting a losing war. Their enemy has taken their homes and is ethnically cleansing the region. There is NOTHING that they can do about it. We’re watching the death throes of an entire people. And sometimes when you corner an animal, it bites. It’s not gonna be nice. But Israel is fully responsible for this situation. It wasn’t Palestine that wanted the two state solution. It wasn’t Palestine that illegally settled Israel and stole their land. It wasn’t Palestine that got granted an entire fucking country for no reason. It wasn’t Palestine rigging elections in Israel and supporting the local terrorist organization. Israel has been the architect of all this destruction. Piece by piece, little by little, with the international community backing them and turning a blind eye to their genocide.
Everything Palestine can throw at Israel, it’s justified. And I hope they do enough damage for Israel civilians to maybe think “hey, I don’t want this. Let’s get these warring fucks out of power and end this. Let me get out of this failed notion of a state, I don’t want to be a part of it, I don’t want to support displacing and killing off an entire people”. But it won’t. It’ll just do a bit of damage to retaliate against the genocide, just enough to maybe make 1-2 people feel like they avenged the many loved ones who died. And I think - good. If you’re gonna die anyway, if you’re doomed either way? Fuck them. Fuck those Nazi assholes. Take off as big of a chunk as you can. Make them bleed, to remind them they’re not invincible. Just as a last act of defiance before they finish you off.
I mean… judging by Israel’s response this comment is some special kind of delirious. I’ve thought the day it happened “Welp, Israel is respond in kind”. Not because I’m some geopolitical genius mind you, but because it was extremely obvious.
Its warcriminals fighting warcriminals, change my mind.
The only thing I can say is that both have no problem with harming combatants and civilians alike, but one side is disproportionately killing civilians with the resources at their disposal (Israel) just because they can.
I’m not convinced that Hamas wouldn’t do the same if the tables were turned, but one side needs to be better if we’re ever to see an end to this conflict.
Yeah. Hamas doesn’t have any moral high ground, but the one that needs to be restrained at this moment in time is Israel.
People are also more eager to criticise Israel because Hamas is just a terrorist organisation and they hold Israel to a higher standard.
I guess the Israeli government isn’t happy about being treated as more than a terrorist organisation?
I always thought the IDF was supposed to be super skilled and tactical. I expected surgical strikes to take out terrorists and minimize civilian casualties. They had a reputation for strength.
Turns out they’re either incompetent or they’re genocidal or both. Hint: both.
Unfortunately, for those in the know, the IDF’s callous and sadistic operations in Palestine have been known for some time. They had a good PR arm making themselves out to be super careful in the occupied territories, but it was always at odds with their actions.
If their good pr looks like that, I can’t imagine the bad pr arm
Well, the good PR arm is pre-October 7, back when they were ‘just’ doming American citizens and tying Palestinian children to their vehicles as human shields. Right now I’m pretty sure their entire PR team is either on vacation celebrating that their job is over now that Israel is going mask off, or have chosen to eat a bullet over seeing their work whitewashing all these atrocities pissed away by Netanyahu.
They weren’t that great before. lol
Just needed to be good enough to convince a significant portion of the American electorate to back them to the hilt.
We can guess they would, as they are backed by iran, who has declared they want to wipe Israel off the map.
(Not Zion posting, Israel is commiting genocide, just saying Hamas is no better, just less capable)
Too many people don’t get that, I am 100% against Hamas, that might be different, if instead of a bunch of civilians, they had just taken like legitimate military people, I know everyone in Israel’s a veteran blah blah blah.
Hell, I could even have a lot more respect for them if they immediately released everyone who wasn’t an Israeli soldier.
Shit even if they just give up the fucking children.
But they didn’t do any of that and they’re complete fucking bastards and cowards.
But I can say damn hear everything the same against fucking Israel here.
They are both bad, and I don’t understand the people who are only against one or the other.
Ehh, Hamas would have killed just as many if not far more civilians by now if Israel didn’t have such good defenses with things like the iron dome.
Hamas and the Islamic brotherhood have only fired 12,000 rockets at Israel since 10/7. I’m sure they don’t want to kill indiscriminately, just give the Israelis a fireworks show! /s
If 12,000 rockets fired means they are attacking indiscriminately, what would you say about the many more thousands of bombs that the IDF has dropped over the entire area of Gaza? Why are IDF engineers rigging residential buildings with bombs and destroying them after clearing them out? What is the purpose of their missile strikes on refugee convoys and ambulances?
I mean I’d say that also counts as attacking indiscriminately. The idea behind the term “indiscriminately” means that you don’t care who is on the other side, so it can apply in both of these situations.
I’m actually kind of skeptical of that number. Gaza isn’t big enough to drop 16,000 bombs on.
Why are IDF engineers
They want a DMZ between Gaza and Israel. (and let’s see how long before Israeli settlers move in.)
What is the purpose of their missile strikes on refugee convoys and ambulances?
Hamas wins when Israelis die. Hamas wins when Palestinians die. Ambulances and hospitals are the best places for Hamas to hide.
We should all know WHY Israel is doing what they’re doing. Hell, we know why Hamas is doing what they’re doing. That doesn’t make it right.
I haven’t seen a number of bombs dropped by the IDF recently, but it was in the thousands last I heard probably in December. Israel also has much heavier munitions and is capable of high accuracy. Independent analysis show that by November 6th, the IDF had dropped at least 500 2,000 pound bombs, causing impact craters larger than 40 feet, in densely populated residential areas.
The heavy munitions, mostly manufactured by the US, can cause high casualty events and can have a lethal fragmentation radius – an area of exposure to injury or death around the target – of up to 365 meters (about 1,198 feet), or the equivalent of 58 soccer fields in area.
Israel dropped hundreds of 2,000-pound bombs on Gaza, analysis shows
Whether or not militants hide in hospitals or ambulances it is abhorrent to attack medical staff and is generally recognized as a war crime. There have been numerous deaths of independent observers, foreign medical staff. More UN aid workers have been killed by the IDF since October than in any other conflict in their history.
Yeah, I’m not making excuses for anyone. People just have this tendency to exaggerate towards “their” side.
Taking either side in this thing like it’s a sports team seems kind of obscene to me. We don’t need to be making things up to try to “win” an online argument.
Regardless of how much damage Israel has done, I don’t think they’ve dropped 16,000 bombs.
Gaza isn’t big enough to drop 16,000 bombs on.
what
I’m not sure you understand bombing.
I guess it’s war criminals killing civilians, mostly.
right, not even getting to the point of fighting each other, this makes it so much worse.
Right? I learned yesterday that Israel is suffering from a lot more friendly fire incidents than is typical in urban warfare. Almost like the people they’re fighting are so poorly equipped to fight back that the main threat to Israeli soldiers is other Israeli soldiers.
Disgusting.
Yeah, all those children murdered so that their parents homes can be stolen are war criminals…
Im talking about hammas and the Israeli military, who are you talking about? I dont quite get you
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I don’t get too worked up by right-wing religious nuts harming other right-wing religious nuts.
Sadly, there are many innocents who are caught between the two.
Yep, thats my Main issue. Also there seems to be a group oft people that can make out the good guys in this conflict, which isnt a thing i think.
But the IDF is the most moral army in the world, they said so.
oh, okay then. if people say they are something they just are, right?
Obviously, no one is allowed to lie on the internet
yeah, its illegal
This isn’t a religious war. It’s an oppressed people fighting back against a secular political ideology that uses religion to it’s goals.
Absolutely not the whole picture. Hamas is a religious terrorist organization backed by iran.
The Palestinian people are innocent, Hamas is not.
Yeah, that’s nonsense. Not once, from any media, Western, independent, or Middle Eastern have I heard that. They are Muslim but their sole purpose is Palestinian liberation and to fight Zionism. It’s in their party charter.
Lol you think I invented that? Go read the other commentor’s link, get it in their own words.
That’s the old one not the one from 2017.
Lil late for that.
They showed their colors, then got a PR guy. Oops!
Who has ever said they’re communists?
John Strawman
Gotta keep that connection between violence and communism alive or people may start to think it’s not true.
There are fringe far-left/tankies who support Hamas. They think Hamas=Palestinians. The far-left think they know enough about politics in the Israel-Palestine conflict when they have not even heard of the more moderate Palestinian Liberation Organisation who are worthy of more support for the Palestinian struggle. But instead, the far left loonies support terrorist acts by Hamas believing taking foreigners as hostages-- who mostly have no horse to bet in the fight between Palestine and Israel-- then abusing and raping them is justified and somehow think that will garner support for the struggle for freedom by Palestinians.
Stupid be stupid I guess. Though luckily, these pro-Hamas, far left nutjobs are on the fringe and minority.
Yeah and so is Israel. I don’t support either, I support Palestinians.
I agree.
Very telling to (rightfully) say “both sides are bad” but not say “I support civilians on both sides”. You know you can condemn a far right regime but still show solidarity with that country’s population, right?
I mean I said Israel, not Israelis, that was the hint.
Now that the terrorist attack is behind them, Isreali citizens arent currently being bombed the shit out of and active warzoned. Are they at risk of future terrorist attacks? Yes, but CURRENTLY its Palestinian citizens who are at a FAR higher risk
Edit: Lmao, apparently Tankies can see and reply to me even if I cant see them. I assume this is because I havent blocked them personally, but instance blocked Hexbear
Clarification to my Edit: Tankies if you are confused why Im insulting you even though you think I’m on the same side as you, Hamas can go fuck itself. Just like Isreal doesnt represent all Isreali citizens, neither does Hamas represent Palestinians. Isreal and Hamas can go fuck themselves, they are both pretty awful. I feel for Palestinians and consider them the most fucked over in this ordeal, but what Hamas did was VILE, even if what Isreal is doing in response is even more so
It’s crazy to me that people here seem unaware that Israel didn’t just start out by building a fortified security perimeter around Gaza. It did that because of the near weekly suicide bombings. Gaza would be completely free if not for those terrorists.
Israel is definitely going overboard, but Hamas and a significant portion of Palestinians openly call for Israeli extermination. The utter refusal to engage on this topic in good faith, and the way this lack of nuance is being used to attack Joe Biden specifically is why I’m convinced much of this narrative is being pushed by right wing trolls pretending to be leftists.
Nah man, what Isreal is doing is genocide. The correct thing to do is fucking murky when both sides have engaged in barbaric bulshit for at least a generation, but Isreal has the upper hand in this power dynamic and what they are doing with it is fucking gross, same as the terrorist attack that Hamas pulled was pure evil. Neither side is clean in this conflict, but one side has significantly more power than the other. Leftists are pissed because the states is once again using its power to aid in something disgusting.
that being said, anyone who’d let Trump gain power because of this is fucking DANGEROUSLY retarded.
(put this add on as a reply so that if I get the lemmy mod hammer for using the r word, the rest of my post stays up)
I don’t really disagree with much of what you say here, but I have seen leftists on here actually praising Hamas.
I do think the loaded language is intended to divide, and I’m quite curious to what people will say if the UN says it’s not a genocide. I genuinely don’t think Israel is trying to exterminate Palestinian Arabs. But that also doesn’t mean I’m anything close to ok with the response. The fact of the matter is that if both sides took a more secular approach to coexistence, there would be no conflict.
I guess the Tankies are technically left, but is that mostly a technicality when they simp for authoritarian regimes who have zero interest in ever allowing left leaning ideals? So yeah, theres a disgusting amount of lemmites who full on support Hamas, but I stopped considering them reasonable human beings a while ago (I’ll state here I’m using Tankie here to mean: “Communist who’s pro China/Russia” and NOT all communists). I dont really know what the response will be if the UN declares it not a genocide, some people will probably accept that and some people wont. I dont think a large chunk of people necessarily CARE what higher governmental powers declare it as though, its the fact that its functionally exterminating a significant portion of Palestinians that is upsetting to a lot of us, if its found to not TECHNICALLY be a genocide, that doesnt necessarily downplay the horror of what’s happening. Finally, and I apologize for the wall of text, I’m trying to respond to everything, I dont think religion is the sole cause of this conflict anymore, both sides have been traumatized by the generation of violence, and the hatred born from that isnt going to go away easily
Oh so the thousands of rockets fired specifically at the Israeli population are perfectly fine.
They said far higher risk. Palestine doesn’t have an Iron dome. They are at a far higher risk.
How many Israeli schools and hospitals are being bombed right now?
Hamas shoots hundreds of rockets at Israel every month. Suicide bombings hurt their reputation so much that they haven’t done any recently, but that doesn’t mean they won’t ignore an evacuation order and go stand on the roof of their building to get blown up for the cause.
Yeah the fact that they only said they support Palestinians was pretty obvious what they meant. This smells, to me, like racism pretending to be a fair and balanced take on the situation.
Durr criticizing Israel is antisemitic durr
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And some online loons, but yes.
Nah I’m fine with backing Hamas in this case, it doesn’t mean I’m home with entering they’ve done or do but I can say that for literally every country including my own.
I don’t think there is any world or any set of circumstances that would have me backing terrorists, but you do you I guess.
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When did I say anything positive about the Israeli government?
You are just looking to fight on the internet aren’t you?
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Pretty sure he was referring to Hamas.
You get that Israel was created by terrorists correct? It’s like a very perfect pot kettle situation.
Sure it is.
It is though. They’re both terrorist states that opportunistically attack each other but one thing is factually different Israel has killed more civilians even before the festival attack and subsequent “self defense” ethnic cleansing.
Funny how you immediately assumed I approve of the actions of the Israeli government. Even more funny: given the choice between which baby killers to back you pick a side. I’m against killing babies.
Hamas is indisputably the enemy, the issue is that the tactics Israel uses to eliminate them also cause more civilian damage than should ever be acceptable. Often they target hospitals and schools where Hamas activity isn’t even confirmed, seemingly just to cripple infrastructure and kill Palestinians.
It makes Palestinians leave, making it easier for them to get the land. Isreal has made no secret of wanting everything up to Jordan.
It also radicalizes them, creating the next generation of terrorists.
Exactly. They are making the same mistakes as the US in Iraq and Afghanistan. If you have 10 terrorists and you kill 5 of them, you have 30 terrorists.
Our greatest successes were when we helped put in infrastructure for the locals. In my global economics class in college, I remember that when a playground was put in a city, al-Qaeda militants were eventually seen playing on the structures. It’s a silly anecdote, but when you lift people out of desperate times, you lift them out of taking desperate measures.
Of course saying this terrorism is purely about economic hardship is only a part of the picture. There is a hatred against Jews that is widespread and isn’t going away anytime soon (especially for those countries still following the Khartoum resolution: No peace with Israel, No negotiation with Israel, No recognition of Israel), so there needs to be some hard power Israel needs to wield. Unfortunately BB has gone rogue and has decided to put all his chips on hard power and that won’t help.
“The enemy” of who? If a group is elevated to being an enemy due to the killing of civilians, the Israel government would easily meet that standard before Hamas.
The enemy of a fair and peaceful life for the innocent. Both Hamas and Israel have made it clear that they want conquest, not peace.
Israel is also the enemy. The enemy of our enemy should not always be our friend
Hamas is indisputably the enemy
Israel campaign of genocide and conquest
🤔
Sometimes it’s not as simple as the good guys versus the bad guys. Just because one side is bad doesn’t mean everyone on the other side is good. There are multiple villains in this conflict and a lot of civilians suffering because of them.
It’s not ‘good guys vs bad guys’ but there is usually an aggressor and a defender in conflict. Did Palestinians, or Hamas, organize this conflict? Did they decide to unilaterally take territory and kill thousands of people on repeat over the last decades? Hamas fighters are Palestinian people, if they weren’t organized under Hamas they would be under a different banner fighting the same war.
Yeah, they’re both irredeemable. The victims are the civilians, everyone else involved is a perpetrator.
Just because one side is bad doesn’t mean the other side is good. They can both be different flavors of bad. Just because hamas is bad doesn’t justify a genocide like Israel seems to think either.
Do you need a diagram?
who thought hamas was communist?
Communist (noun)
-
Anybody who trying to make Conservatives feel remotely guilty for being totally chill with a lot of people starving, being unhoused in unsanitary conditions and being denying life saving medical care because they are poor, foreign or inconvenient.
-
Authoritarian bogeyman who will destroy civilization via terrorism
-
Not a Republican
By the Conservative rubric of identifying communists we’re pretty much all weilding a hammer and sickle.
-
Loons, mostly. There’s been a multi-talk page dispute on Wiki, for example, over internet twits removing a sourced ‘anti-communist’ descriptor from the Hamas page that had been there for a while, because they want to believe that Hamas is aligned with them so very terribly badly.
How is the political stance of Hamas relevant?
It’s a terrorist group defending their country from an invasion. Even North Korea has the right to defend their land. Even if I don’t agree with the way they manage their country, it’s their country.
Their political stance is totally irrelevant to me.
For me the issue is that Hamas already lost, and Israel is violating every single human right until Palestinians are exterminated using Hamas as an excuse.
Hamas needs to stop fighting, they are a piece of shit because they aren’t giving up. Israel has always been a piece of shit. The end.
But Hamas is far from the only militant group fighting the IDF. If they stopped fighting another group would be fighting the IDF. Palestinians fighting now view it as a struggle for the survival of their people and culture. Even if there was no organize military in Palestine fighting, many average Palestinians have been struggling against Israeli forces for decades, unaligned.
I agree but they need to stop. This is not helping them at all at this point. Israel has America’s backup. If the groups that are fighting don’t stop, Israel won’t stop.
They have stopped fighting before though and Israel continued their aggression. They have had marches and protests where IDF opened fire on groups of civilians, killing dozens. Israel won’t stop until Palestine doesn’t exist, they have been vocal about this position for years. They have continued to steal land, they have funded and propped up Hamas rather than more moderate groups specifically so they can have a better excuse to continue fighting.
Do you have sources for these claims? Not doubting, I just want to read more.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018–2019_Gaza_border_protests
The 2018–2019 Gaza border protests, also known as the Great March of Return (Arabic: مسیرة العودة الكبرى, romanized: Masīra al-ʿawda al-kubrā), were a series of demonstrations held each Friday in the Gaza Strip near the Gaza-Israel border from 30 March 2018 until 27 December 2019,[13][14][15] in which Israeli forces killed a total of 223 Palestinians.[4][13] The demonstrators demanded that the Palestinian refugees must be allowed to return to lands they were displaced from in what is now Israel.
223 killed, included 46 children, and over 9000 injured
Times of Israel: For years, Netanyahu propped up Hamas. Now it’s blown up in our faces
Most of the time, Israeli policy was to treat the Palestinian Authority as a burden and Hamas as an asset. Far-right MK Bezalel Smotrich, now the finance minister in the hardline government and leader of the Religious Zionism party, said so himself in 2015.
According to various reports, Netanyahu made a similar point at a Likud faction meeting in early 2019, when he was quoted as saying that those who oppose a Palestinian state should support the transfer of funds to Gaza, because maintaining the separation between the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank and Hamas in Gaza would prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state.
It’s relevant because it’s the truth.
There are communist groups that work with Hamas, so that may have been removed because it doesn’t seem accurate.
I don’t disagree with this, but Hamas was created by Israel, and now Israel is bombing all of Gaza because of Hamas. It really seems like Israel has been planning this genocide for a loooong time.
“Every society has the criminals it deserves.”
- Emma Goldman
Can’t blame anyone for retaliating against the shit conditions they’ve been put in.
In the same vein, Israel’s right-wing regime was in no small part created by Islamist hostilities towards Israel and Jewish people from the very start
Do you mean prior to the Israeli occupation of Palestine in 1967? Because I think it’s somewhat reasonable to be hostile towards an occupational force.
Not a gotcha I’m genuinely curious at what point in history you are referring to, apologies if it sounds antagonistic.
Not only an occupational force, but one extending colonial rule with arguably as bad or worse treatment of the native populace (and no, jews moving to Israel are not native to the land just because that was true a long time ago and they have a book telling them it is so).
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How are you just casually missing 20 years of history before that? Not to mention the preceeding 1000 years.
So you’re saying Israel has a right to genocide Palestine because of the previous thousand years of history before 1967?
We can cherry pick timelines if we want to, but the fact is that Israel has occupied Palestine for the last 50 years. This is why Hamas exists, and this is the issue we face today.
The previous thousand years only serve as propaganda for modern Israel to be on board with the genocide.
This is just straight up islamophobic rhetoric
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According to the idf Israel removed themselves in 2005. But this is under heavy scrutiny from various human rights organizations.
"The United Nations, international human rights organizations and many legal scholars regard the Gaza Strip to still be under military occupation by Israel.[5] This is disputed by Israel and other legal scholars.[75] They argue that occupation requires an actual, physical presence by a military force that maintains authority.
Following the withdrawal, Israel continued to maintain direct control over Gaza’s air and maritime space, six of Gaza’s seven land crossings, maintains a no-go buffer zone within the territory, controls the Palestinian population registry, and Gaza remains dependent on Israel for its water, electricity, telecommunications, and other utilities."
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_disengagement_from_Gaza
Wow, those leaps could set a world record. Get real. You’re cherry picking and then accusing me of cherry picking?
What leaps are you referring to?
If you knew anything about what you said, you’d be able to figure that out yourself.
This has been an incredibly slow genocide for decades
Well yes, they are well versed in history, right-wing politicians in Israel view the conflict on a biblical time scale and believe they are regaining their holy land. They are doing it as carefully and deliberately as they can, which is difficult and time consuming because they are supported by the West who mostly doesn’t want them to commit genocide. Without the support of the West, Israel would be much more likely to be defeated by the numerous enemies that surround them.
But you see, in a dialectical analysis, far-right terrorists like Hamas serve a progressive role by not being the US, and therefore deserve critical support by leftists who are definitely not crypto-fascists. —Marxist-Leninists
I see you’ve met Lemmygrad.
Clever. Pertinent. As a “tankie,” I commend you. This is how it’s done. Take note everyone.
Note: This is sure as shit not meant to downplay or deny Israel’s ongoing genocide. Only to point out the absurdity of some online leftists in simping for Hamas and expressing disbelief that far-right theocrats with a history of committing terrible crimes would commit terrible crimes.
Hey @Satelllliiiiiiiteeee what part of this do you disagree with?
What is this type of comment? I see kbin folks do it often
Callout, I guess? I generally don’t bother unless someone reduces a number of things in a row for no discernible reason, in which case I usually ask why in private messages. Sometimes it’s something like “Your links aren’t working”, and other times it’s “I think you’re an attention whore and need to be taken down before you infect the Fediverse”.
Uh…forget to switch accounts?
Switch accounts?
We can see downvotes so I tagged them to see why.
Great part of kbin is up and downvotes are public
That’s weird. Let’s test!
I don’t know why it’s so hard for certain people to understand that sometimes (actual most of the time), all sides are the bad guys.
Maybe, there are more sides than just the people with guns and bombs.
Sounds like those people need to pick a side or risk getting gunned down or bombed.
Because some people need there to be someone they can root for, especially if the other side is aligned with other people they don’t like.
They are both bad, but one of them trades with the rest of the world. That’s why most governments lean towards them.
Correction. One is a democracy, so the rest of the world trades with it.
They are hardly democratic. But at least they are much better with contracts, promises and commitments.
Democracy only lives up to it’s potential when its people work for it and it seems it doesn’t happen often. Sometimes we get it right.
The Nazis and the Allies. Both the bad guys. Stupid Allies bombing Dresden.
Look up the fire bombing of Tokyo.
‘Sometimes’ and even ‘most of the time’ isn’t ‘all the time’.
WW2 is an exceptionally rare event in which one side is so fucking awful that the support of the opposition is mandatory to not be a vile piece of shit.
Like the israelis committing genocide you mean.
No. The Israelis committing genocide is the extremely common event in which one side is awful enough that supporting them in unconscionable. It doesn’t make their equally genocide-eager but less genocide-capable foes morally necessary to support.
You are going to be in for a real surprise if you learn the things the ANC did to the Apartheid. And the Native Americans did to their colonizers when raising villages. And all these other resistance movements that we now describe as “heroic”.
October 7 sure as hell wasn’t the cleanest attack ever, but it sure was a lot less genocidal than almost every resistance group that has ever done these kinds of things.
October 7 sure as hell wasn’t the cleanest attack ever, but it sure was a lot less genocidal than almost every resistance group that has ever done these kinds of things.
Jesus fucking Christ.
These people can barely hide their own bloodlust while scolding others for daring to even suggest that there is nuance or complexity here. It’s bold even for tankie brain rot.
Yeah unlike what you seem to believe these resistances against Apartheid and Genocide werent magical fairy tales of the good guys and the bad guys.
Dresden bombing by the way. Poor Germans had to self defense against the genocidal allies according to you?
I’m still waiting on that planned attack video from Hamas that you promised.
It’s incredible that this meme has a reason to exist, that there truly are people who refuse to accept the obvious, that Hamas is an extreme radical organization that feeds on hatred and is more than willing to use and abuse their own population as cannon fodder, for martyrdom-propaganda purposes.
Yep, and that the existence of Hamas doesn’t give Israel the right to Genocide anyone. It seems really simple on the surface, but fucking Christ do humans love their team sports analogs.
“If you don’t full-throated support Israel, you’re antisemitic and must love Hamas”
I actually hate both, because both are doing extreme harm, but Israel is on a different level and actively supports Hamas because they’re useful opposition. Hamas is a symptom of the oppression that Israel has instituted.
I hate that it’s even necessary to make a personal qualification on the good-ness/bad-ness of either group.
I shouldn’t have to say “I hate both”, I would like to simply observe - “The current conflict is - in part - a result of decades of systemic oppression and disenfranchisement on the basis of religious nationalism” - without someone jumping down my throat to accuse me of antisemitism or of supporting a terrorist group.
Yep, but the team sports! You gotta make it clear you’re not rooting for anyone, you just want people to stop dying. But that means you have to condemn, cause if you don’t, the team sports people think you’re talking bad about them (and that doesn’t cause any alarms in their heads to go off, cause “they made me feel bad” instead of “maybe this shouldn’t be a team thing”)
But yeah, that’s a part of being human, as frustrating as that is. Our brains want to make “us and them” cause that’s a remnant of how we survived. We don’t need it any more, but that doesn’t change that that’s in our programming.
People tend to assign a good side and a bad side to conflicts. Because the IDF is essentially committing genocide to attack Hamas, people who don’t know much about Hamas are labeling Hamas the good side.
In reality Hamas and the IDF are both pretty monstrous and civilians are suffering as a result of both their actions, but since “Palestinian civilian” isn’t a fun team name they get lumped in with Hamas by ignorant people -_-
They aren’t “committing genocide to attack Hamas”, they have propped up Hamas for years specifically so they can bomb average people more and enact genocidal policies, in their ultimate goal of the destruction of Palestine. Right-wing Israeli politicians have been pretty clear about that for decades. Hamas isn’t alone on their side, and Israel isn’t targeting them specifically, they are just the largest of several militant groups fighting against Israel.
For me is totaly credible, reality has a lot of nuances and it is complex to understand. If ppl still votes for trumps, bolsonaros and le pens how would you find incredible they can’t understand shit about one of the most complex conflics of the last century?
Yeah maybe but Netanyahu put Hamas in power, against recommendations, and blatantly obvious issues. It had to be purposeful so he had a target that “deserved” to be bombed, so the campaign for the last 70 years could speed up.
For those doubting this, IDF leadership have admitted to this, and Arafat confirmed it.
Doesn’t justify the bombing of hospitals and civilians. Nobody likes Hamas but they’re the result of Israel’s illegal annexation of Palestinian territories and subsequent genocide.
What do you think the Palestinians who had their house and families expropriated, blown up and/or resettled by an Apartheid State will do? Not like/join the guys who want to get rid of Israel more?
Before Israel’s bombing campaign, Hamas wasn’t very popular among Palestinians, now however I assume Israel gave Hamas way more recruits.
Before Israel’s bombing campaign, Hamas wasn’t very popular among Palestinians,
That’s not true in the least.
Not just not true. A deliberate lie.
The state of Israel is older than Hamas and Israel bombing Palestinians started before 7th of October 2023. I think the establishment of Hamas in 1987 and rising popularity till they got elected on Gaza in 2007 can be fairly attributed to Israel’s bombing, displacement and apartheid rule of civilians.
As well as millions of dollars given to Hamas by Israeli officials throughout this time, specifically because of their unpalatable extremism.
Hamas arose from ideology that has been around a long time, with a rich history of stoning women to death for learning math going back hundreds and hundreds of years.
Same goes the other way as well. The popularity of Netanyahu in Israel would also be much lower if he couldn’t use Hamas terror attacks to justify the need for a “strong leader”.
Last I checked his popularity ain’t doing so well.
Also may I remind you that the genocide of the Palestinians has been ongoing for far longer than the 7th of October and far precedes Netanyahu’s government. In fact it even precedes hamas.
The PPP are the Communist freedom fighters and Israel has funded Hamas for years to stop the PPP from coming into power. It’s easier to fight radical fundamentalists than it is to fight socialists.
It’s easier to fight radical fundamentalists than it is to fight socialists.
Excuse me, what?
Radical fundamentalists, I believe they’re saying, make more palatable enemies. Same essential reason why Hamas was funded by Israel to split Palestinian support from Fatah - Fatah, as a secular and nominally leftist organization drew some international sympathy - Hamas, much less.
The other side of the coin is that Hamas was able to rise in the first place because Fatah had become incredibly corrupt and inept.
Bingo. Thanks for clearing that up.
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You can get martyrs and madmen from all sides, religious fundamentalists or not.
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I think you’d be surprised by a deep dive through history. Plenty of secularists have been willing and even eager to trade their lives for justice.
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In 1982, a prominent Israeli strategic analyst, Avner Yaniv, coined the term “Palestinian peace offensive” to describe the risk that Palestinians would become too moderate politically and Israel would be forced to make concessions.
He urged using the “fiercest military pressures” against the PLO in Lebanon to undermine Palestinian moderates and make the PLO more hardline in order “to halt its rise to political respectability”.
https://www.newarab.com/analysis/why-israel-has-strategic-interest-escalating-violence
Because fighting fundamentalists gives you more international sympathy and support.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/
It was also to prevent there being a unified Palestinian government by driving a wedge between the west bank and Gaza.
