Pretty much in the title. Maybe you wouldn’t even use it, but would like to simply see it exist for the sake of having a federated alternative.
For me, it’d be the following:
- Meetup
- Tiktok
I am on the first two, but would prefer a federated alternative. I’m not on Tiktok, but would like to see a federated alternative.
I’ll admit these might not be a good idea. But as a thought experiment, I’d be curious about the community weigh in on what you all think this might look like.
Tiktok
The problem with video content (even short videos) is, that it generates an absurd amount of traffic and needs lots and lots of local data storage. This is also why there are so few PeerTube instances.
PeerTube would be a way to publish your short clips, too. Not as specialized as TikTok, but still …
Yeah the data is an issue for sure. I wonder if torrents of some kind would help making it more doable, where viewers (on computers, not phones) build up a cache from which they also seed. Like Spotify did when they started out.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZeroNet
Something similar to this might help disburse the load required for peertube. What sites you read you host in return, very much like with bit torrent with a presentation layer tacked on top.
I think you are looking for something like ipfs.
I think the cache would also have to partially be on phones. If users are to ‘pay’ for using the network by caching/redistributing part of it, since most people access the web from phones
Yeah viewing devices would all have to share hosting duties. I’m sure it could work, and popular/viral videos would serve well as the demand would be spread across the most devices as well.
There would still have to be dedicated seed servers for long tail content though I imagine.
Also tiktok really only makes sense with a big algorithm knowing what users want to see. Even if you were to follow many people, with the average video being only about 30 seconds long you won’t have much content to enjoy. The whole short form video thing is kinda built on knowing what your user likes and doesn’t. I don’t know how you could design such a platform without some privacy concerns.
I don’t know how you could design such a platform without some privacy concerns.
Yes, yes you could.
Companies like Google have successfully brainwashed us into believing that algorithms like this can only work on their server farms. The only reason those werver farms are necessary is becauwe they’re processing data for millions of people.
We forget that in each of our hands we hold a device that is 5,000 x more powerful than a 1985 CRAY-2, at the time the world’s fastest supercomputer. And let’s not forget our home desktops and laptops, which are several times more powerful that that.
We each have devices with persistent internet connections that could be at work scanning, categorizing, and filtering personalized content for each of us, without giving any privacy away. It’s only because we’ve been conditioned to be dependent on having our data centrally processed that we believe that’s the only way.
Note, it is more efficient to process content centrally, where the data is stored. However, generalized categorization and content tagging with robust metadata and standardized APIs would address the efficiency. Given companies are unlikely to do this and scupper their own surveillance revenue, the next best thing is local, privacy-respecting, smart content filtering assistants.
Those sound like good ideas in theory, but your phone’s battery would last about 2 hours if you did this.
The heavy lifting, like tagging the content of millions of videos probably needs to be done somewhere other than the end-user’s mobile device. Some sorting and filtering of text-based metadata on the user’s device to pick what videos to see next is viable though.
True, although it would probably not be so bad for the textual content. CPU load for indexing would be relatively low, and the average phone is dumping tons of data over the network to Google, Apple, and whomever else for these same end-result “benefits” already.
But, regardless, ideally, -ou don’t do it on your phone. You pay $10/m for a VPS that does it, and delivers it to your phone via push notification + fetch – same way it’s done now, but without the middle man.
It’s not a solution available to the average Joanne, although it’d be easy enough to achieve. The problem is that there’s no incentive for anyone to make these appliances: most people don’t understand what they’re sacrificing, or don’t care. And while it’s a relatively small amount of work, it’s a large effort for a few OSS devs to take on, and it’d require at least some support infrastructure, apps, and so on to be truly turn-key for The Public. And so, instead, we have TikTok.
I’m fine with requiring users to tag their own content if they want it to be discoverable. Like if you want to tell people “hey I’m talking about pixel art over here!” just add #pixelArt to your thing.
If you don’t want to shout it loud for all to hear that’s fine too. Not everything needs to be indexed, cached, and highly available to all who might potentially, possibly want to see it.
Are you Richard from Silicon Valley TV show? :)
Algorithm doesn’t have to be a secret engagement sauce. It can just be based on an editable list of the user’s preferred tags and keywords with associated weights.
No need to get more complicated than that because you’re not trying to juice their “engagement” since their are no ads to show them.
Although I’m not even sure if infinite shorts make sense without a company pulling the strings for their own motive. But maybe it’s just not my thing
There are hosting providers that offer unmetered bandwidth.
Sure, setup complexity is higher, but it is definitely doable.
I have thought about such a project as I also have access to relatively inexpensive 20gbps fiber, but lack the funding currently to do it.
Maybe one day…
Same with Instagram. I’m a performer and rely on it for outreach and promotion but absolutely HATE the platform to no end. And this is a common sentiment among all performers. It is a garbage platform that comforts Nazis and pedophiles but bans the hashtag #horror and puts your account in jail for using it.
Unfortunately, PixelFed has almost no one on it and reaching a local audience is impossible, so there’s no point in switching. We have to go where the people are :(
This is why I expect the video side of things to be more on the level of stream channels that self-host content with subscriptions for access to VoDs, rather than singular big platforms. Streaming in of itself is a lot of traffic too, but you have much bigger RoI per bandwidth spent with live viewers, and you cut down the storage requirements with limited VoD access too.
The only problem then becomes discovering these channels from the rest of the federated space, but honestly, either that will be a problem that will be solved by the space in a more general manner (oooh, imagine the return of web rings! Lol) or… It will end up being an issue that doesn’t matter. Like right now, still coming from video games, MinnMax and Second Wind are two creator-owned platforms that appear to be relatively unpopular, with short amount of thousands of views, except they run off of donations on Patreons and the viewers they do have keep them afloat with a good decent margin.
I would like to see something that is less focussed on social media and more on building something together like Wikipedia. One thing that comes to mind would be mapping out all political statements along with arguments and evidence to support or falsify them and the relationships between them (e.g. “if you believe x is a big problem in society and you believe y is the perfect form of government then you must believe y solves x”).
A lot of our political discussions seem quite repetitive and go in circles because each argument is presented in a very shallow way. Something to counteract that would be welcome and I think it could work quite well in a federated way since people with different political views would probably want to contribute the supporting and that falsifying sides for each statement.
That would go to shit immediately. The sheer level of moderation that would be required to prevent that from being abused and corrupted would be insane, and then that kind of moderation would in turn invalidate the whole project because the moderation itself would have its own biases.
But it especially wouldn’t work in a federated space. Are you suggesting that people can just open their own instance of that? If there are multiple different instances for this kind of thing, that’s even more abusable.
Part of the reason Wikipedia works is it is centralized, relatively neutral, and you need sources on facts. It’s run by people that adhere to a strict standard, and everyone that contributes is required to adhere to that exact same standard.
What would be the scholarly criteria for the sort of thing that you’re talking about? What is the standard? And how do you enforce that standard in a federated space?
Because if it’s anything like how federation works around Lemmy, there can be no standard. Instances are going to do whatever they like based on the biases of each admin, which undermines the entire concept.
You’re trying to apply objectivity to a very subjective area. I’m not saying it’s impossible, and you should by all means try it, but maybe it would be a good idea to try something that has a better chance, first, such as this:
How about an open platform for scientific review and tracking? Like, whenever a new discovery or advance is announced, that site would cut through the hype, report on peer review, feasibility, flaws in methodology, the ways in which it’s practical and impractical, how close we are to actual usage (state of clinical trials, demonstrated practical applications, etc.)
And it would keep being updated, somewhat like Wikipedia, as more research occurs. It needs a more robust system of review to avoid the problems that Wikipedia has, and I don’t have the solution for that, but I believe there’s got to be a way to do it that’s resistant to manipulation.
Basically a living survey paper. Examine.com does a very good job of this for a very small set of the scientific literature. The problem is that it takes a lot of work to do, few people are qualified to do it, and out of those few, even fewer will have the time to make such contributions.
I like this idea
You might like a website called Kialo. It’s a tool for structured public debates
Thank you, that’s a great platform I did not think existed.
You might like a website called Kialo. It’s a tool for structured public debates
Tumblr
DeviantArt
Furaffinity
Archive Of Our Own
Keep the fediverse weird and invite more theater kids. They pair surprisingly well with the tech dorks that make up the majority of the current fedi population.
I’m an older theater kid!! And I do pair well with this site!!!
Same, actually.
what do you think a defederated ao3 would look like? not trying to sound condescending here or anything just actually curious
No different from the regular thing except:
- Different fandoms would congregate in different home instances – Which is ultimately just an aesthetic difference but still.
- It’d be a lot more resilient due to decentralisation. I’m old enough to remember when the entire concept of fanfiction was something considered litigious and anyone who wrote it felt they were skirting on the edge of the law. People forget how easy it is for those times to come back. All it’d take is 1(one) corporately-backed author making a stink about it. Decentralization would make it harder to curb.
oooh point 2 makes a lot of sense. I do tend to forget how fragile the current internet ecosystem is thanks to corporations
Letterboxed - an app like bookwyrm, but for movies. I’ve seen other people talk about it and I think some people are working on it, but AFAIK nothing is up atm
Trakt would be good also and it covers film and TV.
LibRate is WIP fediverse alternative for that.
It plans to supports film, books, games, and more. Basically one stop for every tracker.
Github
All the benefits of the network effect without the crippling reliance on a single MegaCorp to keep the lights on and not turn hostile like the owners of SourceForge, Reddit, and Freenode IRC.
Would also solve a problem I’m not hearing anyone at all talk about - what happens when the Gitlab / Gittea / whatever instances projects are hosting run out of money and go dark? Those sources are lost forever.
Gitlab is actively working on this.
That’s really great to hear! It’s an incredible vision for an open source future not dependent on MegaCorps, and I am SO here for that!
Youre in luck. Forgeo is a well maintained, self hosted gitea fork that is federated by design.
Fantastic, I will check this out!
Now we just need to get projects to start using it and federating their source code :)
I suspect the other comment about Gitlab may have more adoption because lots of projects including some very large ones are already using that platform.
There actually is a fediverse TikTok equivalent being developed! I’m not sure what the current status of it is, but it does already have rudimentary functionality. I bet the developer(s) might appreciate some help working on it, if anyone has the time/coding skills/money/etc to contribute. Somebody else mentioned Tumblr, and that exists too! So many cool projects being worked on, I regularly check this list to see what’s new, and it’s really heartwarming to see all the work people are putting into making the fediverse such a awesome place. There’s even a Tinder-esque dating app!
Personally, equivalents I would love to see include:
- Archive of Our Own
- RPC/F-List/roleplay platform
- (I’m actually trying to work on one of these myself, but I’m an amateur so don’t get your hopes up lol)
- Etsy
- Ravelry
- A search engine
- (And not just a metasearch using the same index as Google/Bing/etc)
Federated f-list already exists, it’s called IRC. Honestly I’d love to see an f-chat to IRC bridging tool, so I can add it to my znc bouncer.
I put on my robes and wizard hat…
How do you pronounce “Alovoa”?
TikTok is a sticky wicket, because video is so heavy and sensitive to network performance. You can maybe federate video, but there’s definitely not going to be small instances.
Ah-lo-voh-ah
Thanks!
This is by no means a vital service, but Imgur. Not the image hosting part itself, although the multiple self-hosted alternatives available are mostly aimed at photographs and surprisingly very few if any to memes and reactions for chats, forums and social media. On the other hand, the particular use case of sharing memes and meme dumps is not being fulfilled by anything else at the moment. Go to Imgur even on it’s current sorry decayed state and at any time you’ll find multiple people sharing image galleries, usually of up to 50 memes at a time, sometimes more. Lemmy, Mastodon and Discord servers try to fill that gap but right now they can’t.
Something like StackOverflow/StackExchange would be nice. Would also like to see a federated platform for designers/artists (some Dribbble or Adobe Behance alternative).
YES PLEASE
Federated SO where each participating site has its own list of topics makes a lot of sense tbh
You could probably make this as a custom lemmy frontend. The main functionality is almost identical.
It’d have to be very custom but yeah it would work. Implementing review queues and rep/privileges and stuff might take a bit longer if you want to mirror the site that closely though.
No more “alternatives” please. That formula has failed over and over again. We want software that can do what proprietary platforms do not pursue because it’s not profitable. Online spaces to build meaningful connections, have interesting conversations with like-minded people, discover new things, be free from trolls and toxicity, possibly without the guilt of polluting the hell out of this planet with hardware and excessive electricity consumption.
Example? I’m skeptical there’s anything that both appeals to a reasonably large audience and isn’t monetisable. I’m very skeptical you can do it with less toxicity and computation somehow.
Edit: I suppose dating sites might count. They’re very much not optimised for actually finding good partners at this point, because gamified swipe dating keeps people hooked. Computation and toxicity are still pretty intractable.
to a reasonably large audience
That’s a measure of success that makes sense only in a for-profit, growth-oriented environment. Software just has to be sustainable and “bigger” doesn’t necessarily imply "more sustainable.
That said, what is now possible with social media is extremely restricted and our idea of what a social media is is constrained by profit motives. Social media could be much more, connect humans for collaboration and exchange instead of data extraction. We are so used to the little crumbs of positive experiences on social media that we normalized it.
Bonfire, for example, if we want to stick to the fediverse, is trying to challenge this narrative and push the boundaries of what a social media is supposed to do.
Another space would be non-siloed notion-like tools.
Anothe entire can of worms would be to go beyond the “dictatorship of the app” and start building software and UX around flexibility and customizability for the average user, rather than keeping this a privilege for tools targeting power users. Flexibility in UX means harder trackability and less CTR, so most end-user “apps” avoid that.
Okay, sure, you could make an ultra-niche Fediverse app that has integration with a digital toothbrush or something, I’ll give you that. If three people can productively use it I’m not sure that counts as a form of social media, though. I’d use a descriptor more like “add-on service”. The “social” part means you need a certain number of bodies involved.
What’s the deal with Bonfire? As far as I can tell it’s microblogging with an emphasis on customisability.
Open source endpoints are great. I’m a big fan.
Edit: Oh hey! They have a blog post about that. So basically, it’s another framework on top of ActivityPub. I like the sound of that. From their GitHub they currently integrate microblogging and some weird thing that I can only describe as socially distributed accounting.
they are also doing a whole flavor just for research-oriented social media, geared towards the OpenScience community and the academia in general. It will launch soon.
Then they have a whole set of collaboration tools and groupware, that now kinda incorporates the basic features of Trello and GitHub, but on top of a social media with granular permission systems. There the use cases are many more, but it’s also much more general-purpose than the research flavor. I think the end-game would be to have a platform that acts as a middleware and connect social life, gift-based collaboration, work and consumption in a single open platforms.
I also wrote an article envisioning a federated notion-like tool built on top of Bonfire, that clearly would allow to structure knowledge and implement no-code software on top of Bonfire, but clearly this would require a disproportionate effort for what the project is at the moment: https://fossil-milk-962.notion.site/Fractal-Software-for-Fractal-Futures-71e515597d6b424c994cae74f3341521?pvs=4
That’s actually really neat! I’m going to have to play around with Notion so I can tell what you’re talking about.
Well, I’d for one like to see something new. Not just another clone of an existing platform, since I don’t really love any of the social media platforms. I’d like something that simultaneously connects me with friends and people all around the world. With communities like here, just more focused on positive and constructive engagement regarding different topics. Less picking on the news and less just replying if there’s something wrong with what somebody said. I’d like to explore some means of democratic engagement. For example electing moderators. Maybe vote on rules instead of transferring power just by choosing instances wisely. And I’d like to do away with the current way of upvoting. It sometimes encourages herd mentality instead of good answers. I’d also like to incorporate blogging longer and well reasoned texts, microblogging and sharing pictures. Both silly memes but also vacation pictures with my friends. I think the concept of friend circles is good, You could choose who gets to see what aspect from your life. And I want different pseudonyms so not everyone knows all the stuff I’m into. And something that’s entirely missing is selling used stuff in the neighborhood. Something like NextDoor/Craigslist/Facebook marketplace… You could also combine that with local news and connecting the neighborhood, not just discuss world politics all the time.
I think there is much potential for an enticing platform if we think big and use the concept of federation to our advantage, apply it to use-cases and concepts that haven’t yet been explored by the big commercial platforms. We have to do away with the urge of re-creating something to make it possible. And it’d be hard to come up with good concepts to foster good behaviour and solve the technical aspects. But at the same time it’d allow us break free from the constraints of what’s already there and just be a smaller alternative to XY. The way it currently often is: We let the major players come up with the new ideas. They have different motivations, mainly growing and making money. We re-create what they came up with and add a bit to it, but the concept stays the same. I think we can do more. But it is difficult. There have been crazy ideas, really new distributed platforms being implemented, lots of it with some crypto tech and in the end it didn’t take off or wasn’t aligned with what the users want and need or are comfortable with. Or people tried combining every feature into one platform (like I just proposed,) and it fails due to complexity.
I’ve had this idea where instead of a moderator having dominion over a community, their removals only work for people subscribed to that moderator specifically. We can make moderator actions work the way block lists do in ublock origin!
Of course admin action would still be necessary for curbing high volume spammers and illegal stuff.
I’d just like to see how things are when the conversation isn’t one way ruled by moderators who want their own ideals to seem like the norm. I’m not interested in tone policing and the like.
We seem to share similar ideas. I think we don’t necessarily have to be constrained by how stuff works in the real world. There, it is impossible to listen to everyone, you need to transfer power to a small amount of representatives. And one or few people at the top or it gets messy and nothing gets done. Also you need to come up with a single solution that applies to everyone.
I don’t think it has to be that way in the realm of online services. Technically, we can ask an arbitrary number of people for their opinion. Vote with less effort since networks are fast, databases quite capable and everything interconnected anyways. Have people just represent themselves or just 5 family members or transfer their democratic power to whomever they deem appropriate. It doesn’t even have to be a vote by majority. There are better weighted voting systems out there that are just impossible to implement in real-world countries. It doesn’t have to be one solution for everything, it could individually apply to communities of the platform or work differently for different topics. And big platforms already provide different content and algorithms for their individual users. We could also just everyone be provided with a unique perspective on the same data. Someone can be faced with something while another person has it buried at the bottom or not displayed at all. And we’d just choose things for ourselves, not vote on how other people are treated at all. (I mean that somehow emerges on it’s own… Once everyone chooses to not listen to trolls and annoying people, they’d just lose their audience and become meaningless.)
I see many technical challenges and negative consequences. We’d need to keep the crypto and blockchain people away from it. Everything I’ve seen that uses blockchain technology to achieve this has failed in the meantime. And was mainly intended to make money by some means. But things like ActivityPub are also not made for this. I’d really like to do away with the current voting mechanisms. I’d rather say I trust what this person says and my interests align with those people and this would replace global up- and downvoting. It’s certainly possible from a technical viewpoint. But would it really encourage good behaviour and foster a nice place? People sometimes like to engage especially with the things they oppose and comment on them. It would also be a massive filter-bubble. Algorithms confine people into small and similar-minded bubbles, not a diverse and realistic and stimulating world. I think it’s really difficult to find a delicate balance here, design choices that automatically push towards good behaviour and interesting engagement per default.
I completely agree on the admin stuff. Someone has to provide the computing power and take responsibility for what’s stored on their servers. And sometimes mistakes happen, things turn out bad or break. There are malicious people out there. Someone needs to have the power to fix things. I think that’s perfectly possible. Lots of platforms have succeded at that, there are people available, perfectly able to handle that responsibility. And ultimately, the whole internet is quite resilient and was designed with the idea of being a level playing-field and connect things and people.
I’ve actually put a lot of thought into how this would be implemented, and you’re right about the technical challenges this would impose. There’s gonna be like a dozen different ways the data can be sorted and that would be up to user preference. It would have to be single host rather than federated unfortunately, but that doesn’t necessarily mean evil. PM me if you wanna hear about it.
Looks very neat! Thanks for the link, Something to keep an eye on !
Love the illustration on their home page. Looks like a very new project.
Nice. Looks a bit like Revolt, Rocketchat, other standard Matrix clients, maybe even inspired by Discord or whatever people use. I’m curious to find out how they applied the Matrix protocol to power this.
AWESOME! Thanks for linking the Flohmarkt project. I’ve been looking for something like this for quite some time and all I found was abandoned projects, and things that didn’t make it. I’m going to have a closer look at it and install an instance if it proves to be what I was looking for.
I don’t want the fediverse to always be dictated by the private sector’s ideas. I want someone to build the next “TikTok” on the fediverse to begin with, and for once have a generation whose “new thing” isn’t controlled by a single corporation.
How about a federated archive.org? (Kids these days are crazy about scanned public domain books and stuff.)
Disqus. Would be great to add federated comments to any news, blog or static site.
There’s already a way to do this using Mastodon and a bit of Javascript. I use that on my flashlight review website and also link the comments to [email protected].
It’s not as slick a UX as Disqus of course, and it would be cool if somebody made that.
It’s hacky and not something a professional site would use. Cannot moderate comments for example.
I certainly can moderate comments; I am the admin of the Mastodon server in question.
What wouldn’t work so well is to host comments on someone else’s Mastodon server, so it’s not a good fit for a low-tech/low-overhead site. There’s definitely a space for something with a lower barrier to entry, but I don’t think it fits well with the nonprofit, community-oriented approach to servers running most of the fediverse. Those users would be best served by a commercial subscription service.
I would like discord but in fediverse. This one i am actually using and even there are foss alternative like nextcloud talk i would like something that is at least as reliable as discord for calls
Is that not what Matrix is? I haven’t been to really understand Matrix so maybe I’m wrong.
Yes, Matrix is the closest I’ve seen to Discord that is federated. However, it doesn’t use ActivityPub I believe
Is ActivityPub a good fit for chat? Trying to make every kind of interaction fit into a single protocol sounds like a recipe for a bad protocol.
ActivityPub is not designed for real time chat and communication, I believe.
There’s Matrix and XMPP protocol, but upcoming MLS protocol (which backed Mozilla, The Matrix.org Foundation, even Meta) looks more complete, feature-wise.
He meamtwd calling, calling is lacking
I don’t feel like Twitch / livestreaming is well-supported yet (OwnCast is sort of a different approach to it)
edit: TikTok also is a livestreaming platform
I saw something similar to twitch working in the blockchain architecture. It seems like a cool project where bandwidth is shared among users. But the crypto-scheme leaves a kinda strange feeling about it.
since there is lemmy im happy
