I just absolutely hate being a man in a “what role men have in society”-way.

I know exactly what you mean. A lot of random nonsense is seen as “unmanly” for no particular reason. I’ve seen grown ass men throw temper tantrums about doughnuts with pink glaze, because it is apparently uNmAnLy to even touch one, as if you would get a visit from the man police and they revoke your man card for even contemplating touching something in a “girly” color. It’s just complete and utter nonsense.

It is a lot healthier to not give a flying fuck about gender roles - but also harder, depending on the society you live in. I have the luxury of being a big, bearded dude so not many people dare to openly mock me when I do “unmanly” stuff - I let my niece paint my nails whenever she wants. I cry when movies get emotional. The last dog I owned was a mini pinscher, and I still miss her. I don’t like beer, cars, football/soccer/whatever. I bake and cook and I can get real passionate about it. I still own my first ever plushie.

…but I also have a bunch of friends who have been relentlessly bullied for similar stuff, gaslighted into believing that they deserved it for not being manly enough. And it breaks my heart every time I hear yet another story of someone killing their own passion, numbing themselves down to the point that they become unable to enjoy what they formerly loved, just to “fit in” a society that doesn’t accept deviation from the perceived norm.

Fuck gender roles in general. All they do is make people miserable for not fitting in.

EDIT: The above statement is not meant to bash trans folk by the way. What I dislike are the expectations tied to certain societal “roles” and the almost automatic ostracisation by “the society” if someone isn’t fulfilling enough of those expectations. Let people be who they want to be.

I had gone through the same self examination when I was younger, wondering about my sexuality and gender identity. I didn’t really identify strongly with being a “man”, and valued some of the more “feminine” traits I had. In the end, though, I found a peace in just being who I am. I still identify as a “man” and just embraced both the traits that reinforce that as well as break from the common mold. In the end, I came away from it finding gender kind of silly overall. I have no issues with individuals identifying themselves in any particular way, but don’t really understand the need for gender at all in the larger scale of society.

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Ky Schevers is an interesting voice on this sort of thing. There’s a good interview here: An “Ex-Detransitioner” Disavows the Anti-Trans Movement She Helped Spark

At 35, Schevers is no longer saying she was wrong about everything, either in her transition or her detransition. She now identifies as “a transmasculine butch dyke, genderqueer, something like that,” she told me, and her she/her pronouns contrast with her male-sounding voice and masculine presentation. She doesn’t think that every single detransitioned woman is really trans, and understands that others may have different experiences. Schevers believes strongly that every person deserves the right to question their gender identity and find their own paths.

She recognizes the good in her detransition experience, explaining: “There’s not always space in trans and queer communities for transmasculine people to talk about internalized misogyny. I could talk about it openly without worrying that people were going to be upset by it.” She even sees the good in some of the ideology, which is based in radical feminist ideas about internalized misogyny and male violence. “Not all the radical feminist ideas were terrible either: I learned a lot about women’s history,” Schevers said. “A lot of what I read was pretty interesting, so I’m glad that I explored that stuff.”

The internalised misogyny she talks about there is thought to be responsible for a small percentage of the small percentage of trans men who regret it. They mistook the whole “girls are crap because they like wearing dresses and playing with dolls” idea that so many tomboys have as meaning that they are trans rather than that they were being indoctrinated by a gender-obsessed society.

I don’t think anyone knows if transness would exist in a genuinely non-gender-based culture; I’ve seen the question asked a few times and the response has always been “no idea”. Is it more than just I hate the stereotype of my sex so much I won’t be forced to live down to it? (Note that this is subtly different to the internalised misogyny of the tomboy who hates the stereotype of their sex so much they despise members of the same sex.)

No one knows and I don’t think anyone should care, either. I don’t have to understand the deep bio-cultural science of transness, or have peer-reviewed studies to hand, to know that trans people exist and it is possible to not be an arse about it.

I’ve only ever heard the above argument made for tomboys (cis women) but I don’t see why it would not also be something that cis men could experience. Just because everyone knows it’s crap to be a girl doesn’t mean it isn’t also crap to be a boy. The gender binary is a mirror; you can’t treat women differently without also treating men differently and not all of the differences favour men (and often, they make everyone worse off because most men are not members of the patriarchy, of course).

I admittedly don’t really think about it.

There is no “apart”. Gender is purely social.

Straight white male here.

Are you trying to sleep with me / I’m trying to sleep with you? I’d like for you to have a vagina and preferably be straight or bi.

Otherwise I don’t care about what’s between your legs. Men can be caretakers, women can be construction workers, some random gender can be a computer programmer. I don’t care, as long as the job gets done.

If it’s outside of the bedroom, gender / sex, means nothing to me.

I think the way we talk about gender and sex are very ambiguous because the term gender is overloaded to the tits.

I think it’s more accurate to think of gender identity and gender roles as completely separate concepts that shouldn’t even share terminology.

Gender identity is like the sex of your brain, which can either be male or female or ambiguous / neither. Sexual dimorphism of the human brain has been observed and it’s been observed that trans people’s brains match their understanding of their own gender identity more closely than what they were assigned at birth. So with that knowledge we can assume that someone can be “male brained” or “female brained” in as far as gender identity (or gender “map”)

Then you have “sex” which when used in the traditional sense is your external sex (male, female, ambiguous / neither).

Then you have gender expression / roles, which to me is where the weasel words start to slip in. Gender expression is how one virtue signals to the rest of their tribe they are their brain (and maybe body) sex. This is somewhat personal and somewhat social, because we ultimately decide how we want to behave in the world so the world sees us for who we believe ourselves to be.

Gender roles are the rules society creates that you’re supposed to follow so everyone is playing with the same deck when it comes to understanding what you are supposed to virtue signal and what you are supposed to presume when receiving that signal.

Gender roles are 100% fake in that they’re arbitrary and if they provide no net gain we can eliminate them. But gender is 100% real in that many people do experience strongly being their gender identity. If gender was totally fake trans people wouldn’t exist. So you have to be precise about in what ways you mean something like “gender is fake just abolish gender roles and everyone’s happy” because it’s definitely used to invalidate trans people and that’s not very cash money.

Humans are like computers, we have a biological hardware and a biological software. Gender is the software. Sometimes the software does not reflect the hardware. One (very rough) analogy I give for this is to suppose you have a Mac and someone installed Windows 10 on it. Yes, it’s true that, on the outside, it’s a Mac, but for all intents and purposes, it’s a Windows 10 now. And in the long run, it shall be respected.

In my experience (and therefore my opinion as it relates to my own thoughts and feelings), *it’s ineffable *and that is one of the reasons that it is so hard to communicate even mild dysphoria to people who don’t experience it.

I am really very attached to being biologically female. Loved being pregnant, nursing, enjoy sex in this body. I would be utterly distressed to wake up in a male body.

Personally, I think of male/female as biological, manly/womanly as things defined by the entire set of people who consider themselves men, or women (like if you are a woman you are by definition womanly) and masculine/feminine as performance - if you were a genderless alien and trying to fit in here, or a man portraying a woman in a comedy, the things you would do to perform gender - clothing and behaviors that are more superficial.

I think probably the last two are gender. And yes you can be manly as fuck without being masculine. Perhaps more manly, because you don’t feel you need to perform masculinity to be a man.

Well, what does “being a man” mean outside of gender roles? There are physical attributes we have that women don’t. We grow facial hair, we grow muscle more easily, we are on average taller, tend to have better spatial intelligence, higher rates of aggression, higher rates of risk taking, more men lay on the extremes of distribution curves

All of those are due to mostly physical attributes outside of any perceived gender roles.

What does being a man mean to me? Well, it means you protect and provide for the people in your life. It means you are kind but stern. Just but merciful.

I’m a very old-school traditional kind of guy relative to the new generation. I was raised by immigrants from a more conservative country - and while I am certainly not politically conservative, I do prefer conservative gender roles to an extent.

I like women that are feminine, I like women who cook for me, in my relationships I’m the more “stoic” one and the woman is usually more flamboyant/emotional.

Ultimately we all know gender roles are all societally based rules. But I figure a lot of our notions of life in society are also societally based rules… doesn’t mean they are useless. Men are soldiers because they tend to make better soldiers. Women are nurses because they tend to be more empathetic and less threatening.

These are partly due to biology, partly due to gender roles. It’s an interesting question you bring up.

My sense of my own gender?

I am a man. It was never a question for me. I am male. I feel it in my bones. I feel it the same way I feel that I am human. It’s a bedrock defining feature of me. I don’t have to wonder or convince myself or others. I am male, and I don’t feel like I have to act a certain way, because whatever I do is still male, by definition, because it’s me doing it and I am male. QED. I wanna wear a pink dress or play with dolls, doesn’t matter, still male. You don’t like it, fuck you and your insecurity. I do what I want, deal with it.

Gender in general?

I think it’s a spectrum, like almost all things. BUT, I think it’s not an even distribution. There’s a shit-ton of clustering near the ends of the spectrum (“cis male” and “cis female”). And I think for anyone who isn’t heavily to one end or the other, there’s a lot of confusion and “figuring out”, especially because people love labels, and kids love labels even more than anyone else. And gen Z kids love labels even more than previous generations, for some reason.

And then compounding this issue is the social factors, which you’ve asked me not to discuss. But it’s important to realize what is social pressure and what is just “gender”.

Edit: and I’ll also add that I feel bad for people closer to the middle of that spectrum, because the world we live in was not designed around them.

Males start as females before they differentiate and yet, both have a phallus (clitoris/penis), guys’ ones are usually just bigger. We are all both, and either. It shouldn’t be this big societal discussion, its just another way the rich arbitrarily divide us from realizing what’s really going on