Hello! I’ve been searching for a reddit alternative, and yes, I’ve picked Lemmy and Raddle, but here’s the thing. My morbid curiosity is perked up, and a part of me wants to join the “free speech” alternatives, like Saidit, Poal, etc. What’s wrong with me that I want to join toxic places? I mean, yes I’ll find a whole new perspective (albeit wrong), on political topics, but a part of me wants to be the antagonist, and post lefty memes, and music with a left-leaning message (bands from r/rabm) I know that’s like kicking the hornet’s nest, so you don’t need to start in with “that’s a bad idea” I know it is. My main point/question is, is it wrong to join a site with potential hate speech? Does it make someone a bad person?
Good luck man, you’re about to learn how easy it is to get banned on those free speech alternatives. Still funny though.
Be careful however. No matter what, you’re still just a brain in a flesh jar. You are susceptible to false information and lies as your brain can’t really differentiate between false and correct info that well.
You are not immune to propaganda
Be careful however. No matter what, you’re still just a brain in a flesh jar. You are susceptible to false information and lies as your brain can’t really differentiate between false and correct info that well.
You are not immune to propaganda
I never understood this argument. How is it any different for leftist propaganda? This just feels like telling someone to stop thinking because you’re on our team now and we want to make sure you don’t leave.
How is this different than leftist propaganda?
It’s not. In no way, shape, and or form. Once more, you are not immune to propaganda.
Again, I’m not stating you shouldn’t seek out people who disagree with you, I seek these people out often, but you need to understand what your brain will do.
You should generally be cognizant of bias and the fact that you will, inevitably, accept without confirmation some information or internalize information you’ve confirmed incorrect. This is not only true to one group, and is just as true for those under the umbrella of “leftist” as much as under the term “alt right”.
I will state it’s less dangerous to be less cautious here than a free speach absolutist community. Here, we value truth. There, they value all speach even objectively false. Here, you’ll see false info removed there, definitionally, or is not.
Lastly, for fascism, death of truth is a defining reality. To paraphrase Mussolini let not truth stand on a pillar except insomuch as it assists in our goals. In the places where absolutist freedom of speach reigns fascists, famously very good propagandists, thrive. This is a danger above a left winger repeating false statistics around racism in the police force, or the rates of spousal abuse. Or even myself lying about that Mussolini quote at the beginning of this paragraph
Thank you for the responce however and the respectful tone you took, I hope I clarified>
So if I understand correctly, you’re saying that
- you’re more likely to be exposed to lies on a right wing forum compared to left wing forums
- the types of lies you’re exposed to are more dangerous in a right wing community compared to the left.
So first of all, how do you determine that #1 is true? I’ve seen my fair share of misinformation on Lemmy and the left-leaning parts of Reddit getting highly upvoted and vice versa. But I’m basing this on what I personally know (and who knows if I’m right?) and in general, there isn’t much objective info going around. It’s mostly people sharing their sentiments on a topic with little to no factual information (e.g. “fuck [entity X]”).
#2 also assumes that you’re right to begin with and that sharing these false statistics would lead to a better world. Take false statistics on police racism for example. This can be a problem in many ways. Let’s say hypothetically that there is no police racism, but we say there is and we convince everyone that we need to fix it. This can divert resources away from other problems (e.g. working on reducing spousal abuse), and thus making problems worse elsewhere. Moreso if the police force is tasked with handling spousal violence and they’re now tied up in internal investigations, maybe losing funding, and thus reducing their capabilities. It’ll also be fuelling an unnecessary conflict (possibly violent) between people who should otherwise be allies in the struggle that is life. More people get hurt, more people can die. That’s a pretty dangerous outcome.
deleted by creator
I’ll go over this again later when I have more time, but for now, I just want to say that I don’t appreciate spending so much time trying to understand what you’ve written only to be met with accusations of having deliberately done the exact opposite. I may not be particularly smart, but I’m putting in the effort.
deleted by creator
So my efforts didn’t yield the correct understanding. I recognize that it happens and that’s why I put a short summary of my understanding right at the start so that you can easily correct it without having to read through everything else and expend unnecessary energy trying to parse it out. If you don’t want to continue the discussion, that’s fine. I can find my answers elsewhere. There’s no need to be a dick about it.
I never understood this argument. How is it any different for leftist propaganda? This just feels like telling someone to stop thinking because you’re on our team now and we want to make sure you don’t leave.
Your argument seems to suggest :
- Listening to far right voices is not too bad if you keep being alert.
- The brain of the listener who thinks for themselves will be strong enough to distinguish leftist propaganda and lies from facts and truth.
I fear, looking at the millions of people who are not well informed about some things (say privacy + GAFAM), that this is wishful thinking. Remember the experiment with people in the cinemas where some soft-drink images were almost invisible merged into the movie and made people thirsty and buy more drinks during the break ? In my opinion the human brain is unfortunately not as powerful as people make it believe it is. And I have no big issues in general with leftist propaganda as I’d like to see the planet saved rather than destroyed.
deleted by creator
It isn’t about the greater idea, it’s about the small lies you don’t know you’re accepting. Of course that isn’t to say you can’t engage at all with this content (I certainly seek out people who disagree with me.) as you say, with constant effort and confirming everything you’ll catch most of it. No matter what you’re going to end up believing something without confirming it or even realising it. Good propaganda goes unquestioned. It seems like something obvious, small, and in some base way unquestionable.
In a torrential downfall there’s no way to catch each raindrop, no umbrella that can block it all. You are going to get wet, even just a little.
It potentially opens you up to radicalization in the wrong direction.
Generally radicalization in any direction is bad.
Why? Shouldn’t the measure of good and bad be with respect to how correct it is, not how closely the position aligns with the status quo?
The word implies an unhealthy and incorrect degree. Otherwise you’re not radicalized, just representing an opinion.
radical means arising from or going for the root.
it implies fixing things at the perceived root cause, the word you are actually looking for here is probably “extremism”
the word radical means “from or going to a root or source.”
it simply implies wanting to deal with the root cause of issues. the word you are looking for is probably “extremism”
Not necessarily, it implies conviction and separation from the norm.
To be fair I think my definition of radicalize is wrong given the other comments. Ive always used it as a synonym for extremism.
Yes, hence they reveal that they think the staus quo is the correct way of doing things… Though to be fair, being a little reactionary is hard wired in human brains and is especially prone to surface for those politically illiterate (or idiots in Greek).
Enlightened centrist entered the chat.
Like up?
we need radical change tbh, things are not sustainable the way they are. just pays to be cautious about it though.
They’re not looking for freedom of speech but freedom from consequences.
You’ll get banned there real quick.
you get banned from individual instances but not from the fediverse/lemmy which is kind of the point
Does Saidit and Poal work the same as Lemmy that way?
im not that familiar with them but they don’t look federated, which is what makes this possible, so no.
So what was the point of your previous comment?
You can if you want. You’ll certainly find new perspectives however you will be unlikely to get any good discussion. If you go there to antagonize they will simply ban you as they don’t want lefty memes or left leaning messages.
I don’t think being on the same platform as hate speech makes you a bad person. You’re only wasting your time and exposing your self to needless hate and toxicity.
I think it is generally a bad idea to support sites that promote hatred and fascist ideas by providing them traffic and content.
Free speech enthusiasts are exercising hatred. Before non-hateful people realize this they sometimes conflate it with the inversion: speaking truth to power. Or sometimes simply “freedom” which isn’t perfectly absolute when we live in a society. If you wanna witness hatred then follow the free speech thread.
Perhaps an unpopular take, but my suggestion would be to think if you can come from the perspective of love: do you love these people, and care about them, though they’ve believed lies? Can you converse with them with respect, listening to why they feel how they do, and be patient to bring truth only to help them, not to self-righteously vindicate yourself?
Then again, this is the internet, so if you jump in, post inflammatory memes, pat yourself on the back for being so clever, and jump out again, and show us the results; perhaps I’ll giggle along with the rest of us.
For a different take, you might like to note that part of the effectiveness of propaganda is not a good rational explanation but repeated asserted lies. Jumping into a different set of assertions can help pop you out of ones you’ve wrongly believed from your own background - but it can also wear you down to believe, or half believe, what the other community is saying even if it’s without merit. Keep a check on the things you read: What’s the actual source behind this? Could these be repeatedly misconstruing that thing in the same way (so they look coherent but aren’t)? Is there some useful truth in here I missed? And is there a subtle lie attached to the truth? And there’s lots of other helpful questions you can ask: but keep a sensible head and be prepared to step back and look at something else.
I’ve thought about being compassionate with these people, but the moment you get called a jewish slur or the n word, all compassion kinda goes out the window.
I feel for you, though that’s where the true test of compassion is.
This is the right answer. Hatred just breeds more hatred. If you approach with love and understanding (or at least a desire to understand), you’ll have a much better chance of changing hearts and minds. Try to meet in the middle and you might be able to point them in the right direction.
those things can honestly be posted here on .ml or on instances like hexbear, blahaj and such.
if you want to challenge your and other’s perspectives, you would do better doing so in instances such as lemmy.world or maaybe reddit, you are likely to encounter some pushback but they generally can be talked to. free-speech code-for-fascism sites will just ban you at best. if you actually want to troll them you will probably only have a chance if you organize.
that said if you are feeling masochistic you can go on 4chan, its probably where most of them hang out publicly, and its the rare place where they actually wont ban you for nothing.
part of me wants to be the antagonist, and post lefty memes, and music with a left-leaning message
that can be this very instance on lemmy.ml or many many others right here, like hexbear, blahaj and such, if you want people you will slightly antagonize, but can at least be talked to go to lemmy.world, maaaaybe reddit. its generally not worth your time to go to free-speech code-for-fascism sites because at best you will be banned. if you really wanna troll them, you wont be effective unless you organize.
if you really want to be a masochist, go to 4chan or something, its where most of them probably are publicly.
Just do it and post screen caps here.
Learn how to mask your IP using VPNs or other open proxies before any of that.
Also tracking protection in the browser to prevent reading browser history and such. Security and privacy practices are absolutely paramount if you’re planning on visiting services like that. Of course the best thing is to not visit them at all but some people feel they need to see it for themselves, if they choose they should be prepared and keep themselves safe.
Sounds like a waste of precious time
I guess lots of people can relate to this on Tw(X)tter. After it was bought by mister X. it went downhill. Still a lot of left leaning people are on it with the idea to fight from within (or because they think “everyone is on it” or “important people are there”. Personally I think it is a lost cause and would leave as soon as possible. Apart from that do not underestimate how you can be influenced if you don’t do fact checking. A person I know told me year ago that they liked to read on a far right forum years (for fun or something) and is now like “yeah, I also think migration is a bit of problem”. Go figure :(
If you know who you are and what you believe in then you should have no fear like others are saying. Go wherever you want and talk to whoever you want. I used to regularly post on /r/debatefascism before it got banned on reddit. I was disappointed when it got banned.
When you argue with someone online, you’ll never change their opinion… but you may sway some random lurker just browsing through.
I understand that a lot of the far right use “free speech” as essentially a dog whistle- but freedom of expression in my opinion is a vital part of a free society. That doesn’t mean private places like Lemmy instances have any obligation to follow free speech. But I do support and respect places that do.
Honestly, I’ve been trying hard to practice self-care, so I believe in loving and being kind to yourself. Im also very left leaning, close to socialist/anarchist ideals/beliefs.
I am not familiar with the ones you mention. I do however suggest you read this: https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/05/01/neutral-vs-conservative-the-eternal-struggle/
Especially the part you find if you search for “Voat” on that page.
