cross-posted from: https://lemmy.world/post/19004972
Let’s be honest, the real reason Lemmy build most of its traffic is because of Reddit users. But the thing is, outside of the mass exodus in the west that too from the PC era… people discover and join Reddit not because it’s another social media like Facebook or Twitter that people need to reserve their usernames on like a brand or celebrity but because Google Search is kinda… actually absolute trash by SEO and machine learning crawlers.
Most of the world (I am from India btw, hello~) join or even discover reddit because they’re trying to search for actual solutions, recommendations, advice or even reviews by actual experienced people without having to go through another YouTuber which can stem from troubleshooting a router, finding an actual FOSS option or seeking immediate solutions to the recent CrowdStrike fiasco for example. After having to visit reddit every time whenever using a search engine including for education to career advice, I ended up directly signing up with reddit a decade ago.
Recently, Reddit even restricted its search results to Google only in a business partnership meaning those using Bing, DuckDuckGo to Ecosia or even SearchGPT wouldn’t be able to access Reddit answers anymore. Say, if someone searches for how to block ads on chrome as example - Solutions like uBlock Origin come into existence and continue to exist because of the combined community in Reddit that Lemmy is trying to preserve.
Unlike others, am not saying Lemmy would be dead but it would be pretty much like Discord-Telegram or Tumblr instead of wiping Reddit or correcting Facebook. Reddit is not something you discover from word-of-mouth or join from peer pressure unlike other social media which is even truer for Lemmy but because it actually helps and is useful to people.
Lemmy can’t be taking the path of 𝕏 (Alone Mask’s Twitter) but any of the good platforms were before the Enshittification with Facebook’s way~
but Lemmy already does show up on Google results
I clicked that link and the first dozen results were Reddit posts and garbage
something on your end? my top result is from lemmy.world
maybe try opening the link in Private Mode or Incognito
For me it’s 4 Lemmy results and then 2 reddit results and after than chaos ensues.
Top two are Lemmy instances.
Top one is Voyager for me but right below that is Lemmy world
Tried searching this on ddg, not there yet probably because it’s not indexed and cached yet
Isn’t Lemmy content being openly indexed by most search engines? I think we just don’t have the years of content here, so it’s not going to have the same gravity.
Also, I wonder about all the varied domain names of all the servers. Would search engines treat them all as separate sites, and calculate page rank for each separately? If that’s the case, the influence of Lemmy in search results would be even lower.
It is and search engines do treat them separately, which is problematic, as seeing the same content on multiple domains may be seen as spammy and lead to downranking.
https://github.com/marsara9/lemmy-search tried to fix this, but was put on hold due to some perf issues with a lemmy update.
Kagi recently added a fediverse filter, though I barely use it because there are rarely good results. Just isn’t much content worth searching on lemmy yet
I don’t think this is true, Lemmy is already using
rel="canonical"which should be telling Google what the real URL is, like here on programming.dev I see this in the page source<link data-inferno-helmet="true" rel="canonical" href="https://lemmy.world/post/19493729">which is why the Google results for this search don’t show a million different instances mirroring it
https://www.semrush.com/blog/canonical-url-guide/
Here was the discussion about it where it was fixed last year https://github.com/LemmyNet/lemmy-ui/issues/1418
That’s good, I didn’t know about that. Although the problem does still seem to exist with
different software
and different frontends
Listen, it’s not our job to make Google search result better. They could have easily parsed apub sites like lemmy correctly of they want, but they’re so enshittified there’s low chance of that. But that doesn’t mean we should be trying to fix their shit.
Is there even a good alternative to Google? DuckDuckGo does not count to me as it is close source
Searxng
Unless we want more users.
You are assuming the point of this is to be famous rather than non profit niche community driven
It’s a bad idea to compare Lemmy to Reddit or expect Lemmy to replace Reddit.
Slow growth is not a problem, it’s actually a benefit.
There is no hurry, and no need to push for high user counts.
Rather than trying to attract more people, focus on making your communities an attractive place to be.
As many others have already said, Lemmy is fully indexable by search engines. In fact, in this very community there have been posts about Lemmy content being above other results from more prominent sites like Reddit for certain topics.
I mostly agree with the OP, it would be great if Lemmy had more sources of newbies than just “pissed off redditors”. (I have further reasons for that, but they don’t matter here.) As such I’ll focus on specific tidbits here and there.
The content is indexable (by Google), but your point stands as it sucks. It’s hard to reliably find Lemmy content by it.
Do you - or anyone here - have a good idea on how to solve that? Someone suggested a Lemmy-based engine; it’s tempting but it wouldn’t help if the person doesn’t know about Lemmy already.
Reddit is not something you discover from word-of-mouth or join from peer pressure
It used to be like this. “Stumbling” upon the site was only a thing later, as it had already enough content to become a source of info.
type
site:lemmy.worldin front of your search if using google. You can combine multiple instances with the OR operator iesite:lemmy.world OR site:programming.devthis will force google to give you content only from your desired domains but lemmy.world posts will likely trample the other instances for a lot of stuff.We’re becoming a little centralized (which I personally don’t find to be such a bad thing yet).
I’m aware of the
site:example.comgoogle feature. And, while useful for users who already know about Lemmy, it doesn’t help to recruit new users, and that’s a main point of the OP.About centralisation: that “yet” is key. Putting all your eggs in the same basket is not a bad thing… until someone drops the basket, you know?
You can use wildcards:
site:lemmy.*
Lemmy won’t catch on until there are groups of communities you can ban at once. Sports, Linux, German, pervy anime… It’s a very rare user who will put up with the absolute dreck of the initial feed and manually block communities until they have a feed that’s marginally personalized.
Then there’s the fact that any communities that are specific to peoples interests are completely empty.
Then there’s the fact that any communities that are specific to peoples interests are completely empty.
Those should be locked, and redirect to more generic active communities for the time being.
Any example in mind?
Sailing. Boating. Sewing. Those are they tops ones I miss from reddit that had active users. Instead we have 7000 communities for linux and pervy anime.
I mean it predates a lot of the pervy anime, but Usenet looked the same at the start with lots of Unix/computer boards and an alt.
Computer enthusiasts gonna enthusiastically talk about computers. People who pick up and move to a new platform are likely to be united around being technically competent enough to get there first, and everything else second.
Very true. But that’s what we can create whole instances for: to be the site you think will attract the users you want. With curated feeds, less pervy content, whatever.
There’s nothing stopping anyone from starting a whole new world they want to see in the fediverse. Lemmy and other fedi apps are built like this for that very purpose.
Yes, but I’m talking about mass adoption. Very few users care, they want to scroll through and see stuff they like. They don’t want to curate and host and delve into the intricacies. Until such time as someone makes lemmy palatable, the masses won’t eat it.
That level of feed curation will appeal more to the masses, yeah. Just no one has started an instance like that yet. Although you seem like the perfect person, based on your analysis and responses. 😉
Bluesky is closer to what you’re describing. The platform is more centralized and the feeds are more curated for the masses.
I’m that level of user that will block the ever loving shit out of everything but not do much to make it better. The problem is that once you’ve blocked everything you have pretty much zero interest in there isn’t much left on lemmy. Still better than reddit though.
The “instances hosting communities” structure alleviates albeit not solves this problem; communities about related topics end in the same instances, that you can block.
On Kagi there’s a fediverse lens (basically a filter)
How did I not know this?? Thanks!
Lemmy is search indexable. It includes the necessary metadata headers to link back to original domains as well, something other ActivityPub implementations forgot.
The user base on Lemmy is tiny compared to Reddit, though. Same with Mastodon vs Twitter. The problem isn’t search indexing, it’s the user base being several orders of magnitude smaller.
If you search for topics where Lemmy has a lot of posts (Linux distros, for instance), you can already find Lemmy in the search results every now and then.
Lemmy will be indexed less than Reddit, ignoring user counts, because lemmy-ui is client rendered. Googlebot and some others can still index client rendered sites, but others will ignore the content.
God I wish someone went and finally fixed that. It’s incredible that of all the FOSS and community stuff you can find on the internet, lemmy is the big one that can’t even remotely be browsed via w3m / elinks / anything-without-Javascript.
Why rely on google which is going down on reliability so quickly.
What we need is a GOOD lemmy based search engine. Which I think is entirely possible with current lemmy implementation.
The point is we hook into existing search engines that are widely used.
The post is saying it’s difficult to discover lemmy without someone telling you about it. It’s not really about searching lemmy.
Thank you.
And that’s OK. The Internet was better before everyone was using it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_September#/media/File:Internet_is_Full_-_Go_Away_t-shirt.jpg
Oh, that’s a throwback. The internet and “nerd culture” used to be somewhat more exclusionary now that I reminisce a bit.
Even if it’s indexed, there’s no single website to search for so even if I add “Lemmy” to help, it won’t look for content where Lemmy isn’t mentioned.
The mistake that was made was making the decentralization something that affects the front end. If the backend was decentralized and the front end was a single default website with people being able to create alternatives (but everyone being guaranteed access to all the content), that wouldn’t be an issue. We could tell new users “Sign up on Lemmy.com and if you decide you don’t like the UI just choose an alternative and use the same credentials to sign in.” No one would know you’re using a different UI, all content would be searchable by adding site:lemmy.com to your query.
A centralized frontend and a decentralized backend seems great in theory, but I’m not quite sure that’s even possible without some one or some group owning the centralized frontend. And if one single entity controls the frontend, it defeats the purpose of decentralization. We want to avoid any one person or group owning the flow of our communication.
That’s why you make the backend available to all to develop a front end, but there’s a default option just called Lemmy that helps solve the indexing and getting people started issue. If the Lemmy default option becomes shit the data is still available and something else becomes the default option.
A bit like Jerboa is the official app, but everyone can develop an alternative… Get rid of the instances and make all content available no matter where you sign up from and let the users curate their feed, you get rid of the admins completely, only moderators continue to exist.
I agree it gets complex for users. But pushing back a bit, wouldn’t we instead say:
We could tell new users “Sign up on Lemmy.com and if you decide you
don’t like the UIaren’t a pedophile justchoose an alternative and use the same credentials to sign inmake sure you start blocking.”I have in mind that the top blocked instances are pedo oriented. Also seems like it would create a liability issue for servers mirroring that content.
Although it’s not a perfect solution to choose a default instance for new users, I do think it’s a powerful question to eliminate.
Hosts could choose to host NSFW content or not, right now they have the exact same issue anyway so the current situation is no better…
i don’t want lwmmy to take off, i like it rn
Its niches are nowhere near as strong as reddit though. The only reason I can’t ditch reddit is small hobby subs and stuff like that. Their alternatives on lemmy are just not good enough, because of a hideous combination of lack of users and fragmentation.
Yeah clerk.
What’s the point on commenting on something when you know you’re gonna be the only one doing it.
So I guess a few more people would be nice on Lemmy.
For me I want just a lil bit more of the niche subreddits to migrate over then I’ll be content
