Credit Andy Singer 2024
Ok. Native here. Get out, both of you.
If I thought some other place would take me, I would.
Nah. We’ll just continue to dry wash our hands and apologize while doing nothing useful.
Sorry ‘bout stealin’ your shit. Want it back? Fuck you. Have some empty words.
Go back to Ireland/Scotland? Sure. I need to bring news of what fun things Americans can do with potatoes back to the homeland anyways.
fun fact.
The US army gave people ammunition for free if it was used to kill bison for a period of time.
Bison almost went extinct.
Bison were a source of food for the natives.
I love american history!
Every 50 bison they killed they celebrated a bisontennial.
The official reason was the Bison herds were capable of destroying the fields of entire farms. We never stopped to ask if we should have been farming there in the first place.
I think they did stop to ask, and the answer they gave themselves was “yes”.
Correlation, causation, too many big words.
Killing off the Buffalo, which was a source of food, clothing and other vital cultural resources for many indigenous cultures, was an official government policy to destroy those cultures. Couple more words; ecocide, genocide.
history goes a little wacky
I think at this stage we can just call manifest destiny “Americanism.”
I am kind of annoyed by the ismnisms lately.
You haven’t heard them all though until you’ve heard of Maggotyismnism.
I’m not.
Fair.
It’s kind of disingenuous.
It portrays Orthodox Jewishness as being responsible for genocidal Zionism when Orthodox Jewishness has pretty much always been vehemently critical of both Zionism and the creation of Israel.
The Jewish Zionists that perpetrated the Nakba looked no different than their fellow Europeans.
Not really the main crux of the video, is it?
Beat me to it, great recommendation
that was a fun watch
forgot about that and i think it was to help protect my psyche because that was the first time i learned that my vote was suppressed in arizona. lol
What happened?
I mean it was a very good video. But fun, I don’t know.
So dominant (heart) :)
Palestinians aren’t natives. they migrated at the same time as everyone else, 1 million people in 10 years.
Yep, it was the only habitable parcel of land in the world with zero inhabitants until 1832. Jewish people and Palestinians both saw this weird chunk of land and realized they could just move there since no one else was there.
that’s exactly what happened… 1 million Arabs migrated in less than 10 years. whatever population was there before them was completely out numbered by the Arabs. the migration was 30x the increase seen at the same time the “baby boomers” were booming. that’s 30x population count, not 30x the percentage.
Buddy. There were Arabs there.
and they were replaced by more Arabs, follow along:
Arabs can be both a victim and a perpetrator amongst themselves.
crazy right?
only in the spring
As someone who’s been referred to on here as a “Christian fundamentalist”, I struggle to see the theological justification for either of these events. Although I probably don’t have much to say in regards to these Jews as it’s a different religion, but I don’t understand why some Christians are obsessed with Israel and specifically these Jews having it.
Because the Christian apocalypse requires the foundation of Israel. The Christian side is basically participating in an apocalypse cult, whether they realize it or not.
I speculate that the reason the GOP is so supportive of Trump is because they believe he’s the literal Antichrist and they think that getting him reelected will bring about the end of days. I don’t have the link on me (though someone else might), but I remember reading an article by a Christian scholar or something about how Trump nailed every possible prophecy about the Antichrist that he could, either in a literal or metaphorical sense, during his presidency. Now, I personally thought some of them were stretching it, but it was still a bit freaky and made me consider the possibility that the GOP actually believes something like that.
The funny/sad part is that if they truly are correct (I highly doubt it, but ehhh…), then that means they’ll be fucked alongside Trump due to their support of him. As far as I can remember, the Bible doesn’t give amnesty to the Antichrist’s supporters just because they believed they were “helping god”; if anything I think I remember the Bible saying the opposite (don’t try and force God’s hand or you’ll eventually face his wrath).
(No, I’m not a Christian, but I still find it fascinating and mildly concerning)
oh wow, accerationism but for apocalypse. antichrist accelerationism
This is probably the blog post you’re thinking of
That is deep. I think bringing about the Antichrist is just… Absolutely wrong.
…and made up.
How so?
why some Christians are obsessed with Israel
I’d say that Zionism is a Christian idea, but that would be false. It’s a “western” idea that orginated among English upper-class Christians that was utterly antisemitic - the idea that Jewish people will always be an “other” in the white, oops, I meant to say “western,” world and essentially “must go back where they came from.”
Right-wing Jewish people picked up this idea from there. Zionism has never been an exclusively “Jewish” thing and it has always been fundamentally antisemitic - that’s why you can even see neo-nazis singing Israel’s praises.
That’s very interesting - I never thought of it as being anti-semetic, but it makes a bit of sense. As a Christian and from a theological standpoint, I don’t see how a bunch of people descended from the ones who rejected Jesus forming a new country which they call “Israel” should be interpreted as being the same as the Biblical Israel. For all they care, they see us as heretics. Why should we see them as different from the likes of Muslims, cultural (but not) christians, atheists, etc. (Also before you think I’m saying we should hate these groups, I’m not, I actually kind of mean the opposite). I believe the temple’s destruction in AD 70 and the construction of the Dome on the Rock and Al Aqsa Mosque 600 year’s later is an intentional thing about the old covenant being gone. I just don’t see why “christian zionism” is even a thing when the Bible is interpreted as a whole.
Well, except Europeans never lived in America before Columbus, but Jews did live in Palestine/ Middle East
Jews did live in Palestine/ Middle East
Look up the history of the Beta Israelis / Ethiopian Jews and their treatment in the reconstituted state of Israel.
Compare that to the treatment of Afrikaner Israeli converts emigrating from South Africa and Russian/Ukrainian Jews fleeing violence in the current Russo-Ukraine War.
You’ll notice one of the groups was targeted for mandatory sterilization and it wasn’t the white folks.
I up voted, this has no justification
Which hardly matters when people are taking the homes of people living there currently and killing them. What difference does it make if some of someone’s ancestors centuries ago lived in that general part of the world?
You could justify European colonialism in Africa under similar logic, on the grounds that since humans evolved there before spreading out to the rest of the world, all Europeans have ancestors that lived on that continent at some point in the past and would merely be “reclaiming” it.
Although wouldn’t kicking the Jews out of Palestine be doing exactly the same thing all over again?
I don’t know if I’ve seen anyone arguing for that. Even the people wanting to get rid of the state of Israel aren’t usually wanting to remove the people. Prior to Israel forming, Jews and Muslims lived together in relative peace and harmony. They still do in many places.
The issue comes when one group is told that the land belongs to them specifically, or that the other group is inferior or evil. I don’t think removing Israel is a solution at this point, but it does need to fundamentally change. I don’t see a possibility for an ethno-state to not create these ideas. It needs to just become a state, not a state for jews specifically.
It’s impossible to remove the state of Israel without evicting / killing it’s Jewish population. They are surrounded by entire states that base their culture on wanting to kill as many Jews as possible. What do you think would happen if the entire land suddenly became Palestine and they weren’t permitted to protect themselves anymore?
I remember discussion on making Jerusalem an international zone. I think this would have been better done, even if it results in an immovable ladder. Jerusalem is actually quite interesting for a lot of things like this, like how the keys for the church containing Jesus’ empty tomb is held by a Muslim family, or how the Temple Mount is a place of significance for all three of the religions.
Yes, I don’t think Israel should be destroyed, for the record, there’s been enough time since it’s founding that people have been born and grown up there without having a say in it’s founding after all. But the Palestinians need to be full citizens of some state or another, a proper state with international recognition, sovereignty and the capacity to defend itself against Israel in the future to the extent that is reasonably possible. In theory that could be an Isreal that didn’t discriminate against them, but as far as current tensions stand, that seems very unlikely to be stable without one group or the other seeking to disenfranchise the other or worse, so they should have their own state, or states potentially depending on how one decides to handle the issue of the west bank and gaza not being geographically connected.
No one is stopping them from forming their own state on their own land. In fact most of the world supports it. But they choose not to because they want the entire land that Israel is on despite not having the rights or the means to obtain it.
Israel is absolutely stopping them from forming their own state in the west bank and Gaza, indeed, the fact that Israeli settlements keep getting built on the west bank makes it actively harder over time for such a state to be created. The agreement of much of the world doesnt help much when the land in question is under occupation.
Although wouldn’t kicking the Jews
Why do you conflate Jewishness with Israel?
I’m referring to the ethnic Jews right now
Yep. That’s why I personally think it’s dumb to try and argue for the dissolution of Israel at this point. It’s too late. All you can do at this point is damage control and to try and find an equitable solution to the Israel-Palestine problem that gives both groups the ability to self-govern.
It’d be like kicking all the Russians out of former USSR countries, or Chinese out of Tibet, or white people out of the US, Canada, Australia and New Zealand.
Israel should be held accountable for what they’ve done to the Palestinians, but I also don’t think you can reasonably expect for everyone in Israel to pack up and leave at this point.
A one state solution doesn’t mean that everyone in Israel would have to leave. It would just mean that everyone in the region gets an equal voice in governance. Many people would probably choose to leave, in the same way many people left South Africa when their system of apartheid ended.
Eh… I’m just… Not sure a one-state solution would end well, even if you could get past the US. It’s not that I like Israel, I hate everything that Israel is doing right now. I’m absolutely disgusted by the way they’ve been treating the Palestinians. However, I also don’t want to see more violence and bloodshed. I’ve been sickened by the never ending march of dead bodies that our horrid, god-forsaken species seems to crave.
I want a solution that will result in the least amount of violence and death, and I think something like a two-state solution is more likely to achieve that than telling Israelis that they’re now under Palestinian control.
Yeah, I believe the two state solution is probably the most logical
That’s why I personally think it’s dumb to try and argue for the dissolution of Israel at this point.
I guess you also believe there’s a “White Genocide” going on in South Africa, right?
Plkease stop looking at the world like a white supremacist. For your own sake.
I guess you also believe there’s a “White Genocide” going on in South Africa, right?
Plkease stop looking at the world like a white supremacist. For your own sake.
Jesus fuck if that’s really what you got from my comment then you need to get off the Internet and get some serious help, dude.
Are you okay? I’m actually kinda concerned.
Some did, but the whole point of Israel was a place for European countries to send their Jewish populations.
People who even if they were also ethnically Semitic, were descended from people who voluntarily left the area generations ago.
They could have immigrated there, instead European governments just declared it was theirs now.
Like, imagine if every American with Irish heritage were granted birthright citizenship there and the people who never left are shoved down into an ever shrinking slice of land. That’s what’s happening
were descended from people who voluntarily left the area generations ago
There have been forced deportations from that area for millenia. They’re talked about in the Bible and the Romans did it.
Weird then how the majority of Palestinians are a genetically unbroken set of lineages from before the kingdoms of Israel and Judah. Some deportations from very specific areas happened, like from Jerusalem to the West Bank during Roman rule.
I’m not sure the point you’re trying to make…I was just pointing out that “voluntarily leaving what is now Israel” is wildly misleading and wrong
My point is you’re incorrect. Jews have continuously lived in what is now Israel for 4000 years.
Where did I say anything about Jews not living there continuously? Idk what you’re talking about now
The Jewish settlers didn’t live in Palestine, they lived in Europe and then moved to Palestine to steal the land. They’re white.
Just because one ancestor a dozen generations ago lived somewhere doesn’t mean you have a right to evict the actual people living on that land.
“Israeli Jews are white” - Lmfao I can’t believe that people still believe that old racist trope
Palestinians didn’t live in Palestine during that time, either. they migrated when everyone else did.
I don’t agree on wording in the first paragraph, but do agree with the second paragraph.
What now? Evicting all 8 millions of Israeli to make Hamas happy?
How about ending apartheid and making a multiethnic, multi-religious democratic state from the river to the sea? Israelis can become Palestinian, they don’t need to leave.
Hmm which state is apartheid again? The one that is 20% Arab where they have full rights… Or the one that is 100% Arab where anyone who is not like them is killed with extreme prejudice?
Yes, how about we all end the wars, and just live happy on our beautiful Earth? 😊
Sounds horrible
How about ending apartheid and making a multiethnic, multi-religious democratic state from the river to the sea? Israelis can become Palestinian, they don’t need to leave.
have you ever seen an israeli or a palestinian?
Neither like eachother. And honestly for good reasons. Good luck with that idea.
TL;DR this is basically like going “why dont the USSR and US just become one state” during the cold war.
They don’t like each other because one is a colonizer coming to steal land and ethically cleanse the population. If they stopped doing that I think they could get along.
Black people and whites mostly get along on the US these days. Different peoples can live together.
maybe, but we’re also forgetting that this has literally been a thing since the founding of israel, older than most of entire living families, and most of their grand parents as well.
I’m not really sure something like this could just be “swept under the rug” and forgotten in such a manner, though if they decided to do a one state solution, i’m not going to stop them either lol. I just think a two state solution is the only realistic solution here, given the historical context and pretext of the conflict.
Black and white people mostly get along now, which is true, but it took many, many years. For that to actually be the case, 1964 was the year the civil rights act was passed. But this was also a population that was subjugated and had their rights removed, not one that is militarily backed into a corner. So these are a little bit different.
Plus we also can’t really apply US culture onto the middle east, they just experience the world differently over there.
It would definitely require a process similar to denazification in Germany, where the people are reeducated and all members of the previous administrative apparatus are removed from power. Like the radical reconstruction in the South after America’s Civil War (before white terror overthrew their multiracial democracy I mean)
But Jews live in Germany now, and Germany is a great friend of Israel. Much like Black people in the US and whites, things can change.
We’re all human, I have no idea why you think “they just experience the world differently over there” like they’re aliens. I’m not making a 1-1 comparison but like, there ARE similarities!
Pretty sure Leif Eriksson landed in Vinland before Columbus landed in the Bahamas.
In other words, I’ll be formulating a proposal to Mette-Mink to reclaim what only can belong to the (once) glorious Denmark!
Jewish people lived next to muslim people in arab countries for a very long time but then ww2 happened and the dumbass americans decided that doing what the nazis wanted to do originally is a good idea so they just kinda said that the european jews should move to this random desert where a lot of middle eastern jews live. You wouldnt deport all the south american, african, asian, etc christians to europe just because of their religion.
Jewish people living in Palestine is no fig leaf to justify European genocidal colonialism.
Linkerbaan, where are you yourself from?
it’s all in the name
I’m guessing some red state where they pay people to spread propaganda.
Yeah, who would pay people to spread propaganda
Netanyahu’s War on TruthIsrael’s Ruthless Propaganda Campaign to Dehumanize Palestinians
He’s a Trump fanboy from the US who gets his kicks masquerading as a far-left liberal.
Based on what?
Based on the overwhelming amount of blatantly obvious misinformation he has posted and had removed weekly, and is banned for spreading propaganda, maybe?
Look, maybe you’re right, but I’m supposed to just take your word for it? From a cursory look at their profile I’m not seeing examples of what you’re talking about.
Look at the mod logs bud. They’re a propagandist. It’s not up for discussion. They have a reputation around here even amongst far leftists.
Check out his post history. Quite a few people know and keep banning him from different communities but he keeps popping back just like his orange hero.
Your post history is supporting israel. Are you sure you don’t want Trump to win?
Dude, you have nothing to say about post histories here. You spread more propaganda than Fox News.
You and your army of sock puppets don’t need to. The fact of what I said remains.
You spread nonsense. And you know it.
The OP? What’s that based on? All their posts are just critical of Israel
That said, given how lemmy works, there’s no real recourse anyway. This is a good, funny post, so I’ll upvote it. Since upvote points aren’t tracked there’s nothing we can really do to tell bad actors apart from people that actually contribute to communities/discussions. If it mattered, I’d maybe downvote but it doesn’t since every post they make ends up being treated individually by the community (unless you track usernames or something and I personally don’t pay for that feature)
You’d have to comment on all their posts if you wanted it to stick, and then if it’s not obvious like here, you’d have to provide reasoning each time. I don’t get it but most people really didn’t like points being added up for some reason
