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- cross-posted to:
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So they’re now outsourcing production to the West? We’ve really come full circle.
Why do you assume the West? China often expands to other Asian countries. Or pretend to. E.g. after tariffs are applied to China you’ll often see a huge increase in intra Asia trade. Followed by different Asian countries heavily increasing their exports. Usually by hiding the true origin (tariffs are applied to the origin, not some transhipment place).
Also a lot of infrastructure in Africa is being funded in China, their position there is only going to grow stronger.
This is what happens with production revolutions. We did the same thing, as did England.
It’d be really funny if China building factories in Mexico causes NAFTA to collapse.
And then we have mass worker revolts to seize the means of production in these countries right? Right?
Woulda been funny. Not just for the obvious benefit of having an uprising and potential revolution in Europe, but also to see how genuine those “red millionaires” are about socialism with Chinese characteristics
A bit nitpicky, but the idea behind SWCC isn’t that the Capialists in the PRC are “the people’s Capitalists” or anything, but that the State as a DotP allows market competition in a controlled manner similar to a birdcage. As these markets form monopolist syndicates, they centralize, and socialize, by which point the CPC increases public owership. Communism is achieved by degree, not by decree. Trying to achieve Communism through fiat has historically resulted in struggles and difficulties.
I recommend reading Socialism Developed China, Not Capitalism for an overview of what that entails.
I also recommend The East is Still Red - Chinese Socialism in the 21st Century by Carlos Martinez, it does a great job of dispelling common myths about China and it’s economy, foreign policy, etc with solid sources through a solidly materialist lens.
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yeah, won’t someone think of the oligarchs for once???
I think about them all the time actually.
Won’t someone think of the poor, innocent Capitalists?
You seem upset
You’re asking for people to be empathetic to an enemy on the internet. Good fucking luck with that. In real life I hope the people who call for violent revolution are just blowing off some steam and aren’t actually advocating for the wonton destruction of uncountable lives. Like you I’m concerned they’re not, but I’ve learned that there’s no room for nuance online.
Which is why to everyone else I’m saying this, just because I said I don’t want an enormous number of people to die, doesn’t mean that I don’t want to see capitalism fall. I just don’t want to commit a Holocaust doing it. Now go ahead and downvote me now.
Never said without, only said not too much.
“The very concept of “revolutionary violence” is somewhat falsely cast, since most of the violence comes from those who attempt to prevent reform, not from those struggling for reform. By focusing on the violent rebellions of the downtrodden, we overlook the much greater repressive force and violence utilized by the ruling oligarchs to maintain the status quo, including armed attacks against peaceful demonstrations, mass arrests, torture, destruction of opposition organizations, suppression of dissident publications, death squad assassinations, the extermination of whole villages, and the like.”
-Michael Parenti, Blackshirts and Reds
Revolution has saved countless lives the world over, to denounce revolution without denouncing the incredible violence of the status quo is anti-Leftism.
Okay, so I never said never use violence or to just accept the status quo. Don’t put words in my mouth. I’m not so nieve that I think any real change won’t happen without a lot of violence. Violence is distasteful and should be avoided, but is also sometimes necessary. If King Louis’ head didn’t get chopped off, I would probably have been born a literal serf instead of a modern version of one. If the oligarchs of today lost their heads I wouldn’t feel a thing, when they bite the dust I don’t. I just think the conversation on lemmy.ml needs to take a pause and think for a second. Cause it seems to me that many people here want to kill everyone who is higher up on the social ladder than they are. That just perpetrates the endless cycle of violence, it doesn’t make a better world.
Sure the world would be better without Jeff Bezos, or Elon Musk, or many others. I’ve read discussions people seemed to take seriously suggesting that millions to tens of millions of people in their country deserve to die. Apparently saying don’t kill people with complete disregard for the importance of life is a bridge too far for this part of the internet.
Cause it seems to me that many people here want to kill everyone who is higher up on the social ladder than they are
Can you explain? This doesn’t seem to be the case at all. Maybe it’s just that I’m a Marxist-Leninist and understand what other Marxists are getting at better.
I’ve read discussions people seemed to take seriously suggesting that millions to tens of millions of people in their country deserve to die
Do you have an example?
I’m not sure why we care. It’s just simple competition, if your opponent is able to sell a cheaper product, either lower your price or deal with it. It’s basic capitalism.
While I’m for tariffs on import to at least make cost equal to minimum wage for workers (to equate for the pay wage differential) if the factories are being built in house, it means they are following country standards including wages, I don’t see the issue.
Free market propaganda has never been applied under equal circumstances. It is rhetoric used by capital to reduce or destroy regulations, labor, national sovereignty, etc. Western industrialized capitalist coubtries built their industry and infrastructure using tariffs to protect it, then turned around and demanded the opposite from other countries so that they would have to buy their products and sell whatever those colonizer countries wanted (at the time, usualky raw materials).
Now that other countries are ascendant, US-based “free market” capital is gladly re-embracing protectionist logic. It has only ever been about maximizing their profits. The “theory” of free markets tails capital, it isn’t a science or even a valid line of thought.
And this behavior is somehow sold to the public as a way to boost the economic wellness of the people living under the isolationist programs, but instead it enables profiteering corporations to exert more control over the artificially narrowed market space.
Locking the door with the fox(es) in the henhouse.
In some cases it has improved public welfare as industrial capital demanded infrastructure and education, though of course they also demanded as much of your day as possible for as little wage as possible. And as finance wins out it acts like a parasite on productivity while still demanding maximum time and minimal wages.
economics is far from a simple competition… things like game theory lead to monopolies being bad for everyone, and that’s what china wants in a lot of cases. the chinese government subsidises some of its industries dramatically so they can take over a global market and then slowly backs off the subsidies when they’ve killed their competition
it’s similar to microsoft’s embrace, extend, extinguish strategy
Seems like a short lived plan. Just need to change laws so that Chinese owned vehicles have a tariff, no matter where they’re made. Of course, then they just create shell companies in the states/EU and the game of cat and mouse continues.
Why do we “need” to change laws to artificially inflate the price of cars? Don’t we give enough money and government control to Ford and GM?
The EU Wants Chinese car factories to operate locally.
Chinese EV maker BYD welcome to open factory in France, French finance minister says
European nations compete for Chinese EV factories, jobs even as EU weighs tariffs
China’s Dongfeng in pole position to build an auto plant in Italy - Italian sources
capitalists have no nation
Not entirely true. There’s a large difference between Nationalist Bourgeoisie and Imperialist Bourgeoisie. The Nationalists in Imperialized countries are progressive compared to the Imperialists that oppress both the Nationalist Bourgeosie and Proletarist in Imperialized countries.
