Reddit Was a Good Business
I joined Reddit in 2008. I remember it as a perpetual series of discoveries. Every time I logged in, I would learn something I never would have seen otherwise. New technology. New comedy. New ideology. New pornography. New ability to interpolate a unique string of characters related to current events and suddenly take control of a fresh memetic stream of independent media. New feelings, identities, behavior patterns, collective ethical architectures, and business opportunities. I was an isolated adolescent allergic to all the authority and social structure in my churchy suburban youth. Reddit was an electric neon string dangling from infinity and buzzing with the secular hum of freedom, sex, and reason. I grabbed on and didn’t let go for fifteen years.
We must remember it was always a business. It was an advertising marketplace operated for profit. It happened to operate at a particular scale which afforded small groups of key thinkers subjective judgements of the value of abstract concepts. For example, the value of community trust in an ad business.
I am guilty of describing recent events as “the death of Reddit.” While it’s cathartic to type after watching a community so formative to my identity sink into the swamp of astroturfed parasocial media hosting the U.S. Congress thinks is the same thing as “the Internet,” it’s wrong. Reddit didn’t die, it just outgrew its ideals. What died was that stupid moose. Furthermore, I’m glad it’s dead. It lied to me. It convinced me to forget something very important that Frank Herbert tried to tell me a long, long time ago.
The Spice Must Flow
Most people just want content. Sad but true. People living in specialized industrial/postindustrial societies have access to infinite sources of worry restricted only by the awareness of imminent death. The role of computers in society according to almost everyone alive is to help them hang on to their jobs or to temporarily distract them from their jobs. You can put the secret truth of the universe on tap and the vast majority of people simply won’t care unless it helps with one of those two things. It’s human nature; getting angry and vocal about it doesn’t change it. You are entitled to try.
It is because we know we will wither and die that we construct apparatuses to care for us in our impending weakness. For this reason, businesses of a certain size either grow or disappear.
Steve Huffman is taking a lot of shit right now, and that’s fair. That’s his job. My friends, do not confuse the face of the business for the inherent nature of the business. It is composed of mortals. Worse, it’s composed of software.
September Is a Function of Connectivity
If you’ve migrated to a federated Reddit substitute this week, you may have already encountered ActivityPub’s biggest limitation. Defederation is a massive pain in the ass. When a popular instance decides to take its toys and go home, everybody who was federated with them gets kicked in the metaphorical dick while the network figures out how to heal. On a technical level, the reason this is so expensive has to do with the inherent limitations of client-server architecture, but that’s a topic for another day. Right now, defederation is being used the way it was arguably intended: to protect communities who feel threatened by massive growth. Before you know it, the natural forces of conglomeration that killed our beloved Silly Moose will turn defederation into the same political token that’s represented by today’s private API. The gnashing of teeth will echo across the internet as pseudointellectuals like me bemoan the “death of the Fediverse.” They will be as wrong then as we are now, and we will be old.
In these fleeting moments preceding imminent death, we must use technology to love one another.
nice content! good format, understandable message, poking gentle fun at beehaw without explicitly mentioning them.
10/10
I like you. You’re interesting.
That was fucking amazing. I remember when I first went on reddit ages ago, this was the type of content I saw the most along with memes. 10/10 with or without rice!
Love reading these personal epilogues at the end of someones reddit journey. This is far better written than mine was. Well done and good luck finding your suitable alternative
I am guilty of describing recent events as “the death of Reddit.”
‘Reddit as you know it has ended.’
Different people will have different takes on that quote. But that’s easier to interpret since it’s not edgy and more fitting of the reality. Reddit won’t be going away yet, just like Facebook didn’t despite its numerous fiascos. Someone who was on Reddit since its beginning might have agreed with this quote several years ago. In my case, it was around the time Reddit had the first Facebook exodus and the time they started accepting investment from dodgy companies like Tencent.
Right now, defederation is being used the way it was arguably intended: to protect communities who feel threatened by massive growth.
A lot of Subreddits were negatively impacted by massive growth. I’d argue that was the case for all of them. The people factor aside, you’d get issues with becoming monetisation targets, which, among others, can mean mod corruption and increased bot activity.
No system is perfect. Lemmy’s day will most likely come too, just like it has come for almost everything else. Enjoy while you can, you do live in the present after all.
I have complicated feelings on the idea of instances doing this defederation. I’m new to all this, so maybe this is natural. I mean, I’ve been peripherally aware of the fediverse for a few years. It was hard to miss after Twitter, but even before then I was keeping an eye on Matrix and PeerTube especially. But, never dipped my toe in until now.
On the one hand, I really resent the idea that my instance owner could simply be hiding part of the world from me over their personal opinions. Not just that, but silencing my voice in some corners, too. I know I could register accounts elsewhere but I don’t want more accounts, and how am I supposed to be knowing what I’m missing if it’s invisible to me already? I thought this is what federation was supposed to do: let me participate in anything from anywhere.
But as I’ve been watching some of this reddit stuff unfold, I guess it makes a lot of sense. Our current modern internet culture is inherently very insular. For any given person, there are bright beacons of strong attraction to those who think and feel like you do, and there are also dark areas of repulsion from communities whose ideals represent something that oppose yours. Online, like attracts like, and most people seem to really enjoy that. I think that most people are actually into social media for the entertainment value, and we all usually like to watch what we can relate with.
So for most users, this kind of thing probably really does improve their corners of the fediverse. It doesn’t have to be the end for people who want the freedom to read and write to any corner of any niche community or ideology. My wariness for being informationally controlled (fostered by recent commercial social media blowups) manifests in the fediverse as wanting my own instance, I think. There are a fair number of very small instances it seems like, and I’m assuming it’s because of people like me who felt the same pressure.
This puts me at ease, I think. I still have a way to remain independent, I just need to take responsibility for it. I’ll learn a bit more about how it all works, and maybe help improve it along the way to make it easier for others to achieve, too. I wonder if this isn’t a good thing for internet culture, really - encouraging the establishment of these new kinds of little lagrangian independence points people can be drawn to, between the extremes of the rest of the internet’s social attractors and repulsors, which we can leave for the people who really want that.
I think there will be much simpler and better alternatives to defederation in future, we just haven’t built them yet. I.e. ways to just achieve the targeted goal without the huge blast radius.
For example a community (or whole instance) might be set up so that only subscribers/locals can post and comment, and users from instances with open registration have to apply first before they are allowed to participate. Vice Versa an instance could have a default setting to hide communities from certain other instances, and let users customise that. I think that would address the main reasons beehaw defederated but without nearly as many downsides
The fediverse was designed to segregate people. There was always something I didn’t like about it and I could never figure it out.
Oh btw if you’re, like, 15 and you’re confused because you’ve seen pictures of Steve Huffman, don’t worry, you’re not having a stroke, that’s Ned Beatty in Network (1976).
My favourite movie, great reference OP, also, love the profile pic
Wow, can’t say I’ve heard of that movie and I’m well over twice 15 these days lol. That scene sold me though, that was phenomenal.
this is really well thought out. kudos
That’s a lot of words just to boil down to “people want things they don’t have to pay for”.
Reddit being a business means nothing. Every fucking thing is a business. Lemmy is a business. If you don’t think so, you’re a fuckin idiot.
Instances aren’t yet, but the devs of software itself are 100% looking to make some money sometime, whether that’s from Lemmy itself (which it 100% will be now that it’s growing), or from being able to put it in their CV. Linux is open source but Redhat makes billions on their flavor, but mostly the support for their flavor.
The devs, if they’re smart, will leave it open source but turn it into an upstream/downstream kind of thing and offer paid support for communities. It could be relatively small for the community but would add up over a thousand instances. If instances want to scale they’ll need support. Profit will scale as labor scales. Paid instances will get newer stable baselined versions before free instances.
And before anyone says that it’s open source, this won’t change. It will just change the release schedule. Paid instances will be like redhat with support. Free instances will be centos where you get everything a little later and no support.
The devs, if they’re smart, will leave it open source
They have no other choice since Lemmy uses a Copyleft license.
Not everything is created for profit. GNU/Linux and the Free Software movement were created to give people freedom. Starting those things didn’t make Richard Stallman rich. Another example is Debian - an operating system that is fully Free Software and developed for free by the community.
Reddit was open source at one point too. Before it was rewritten and made closed source.
I’m just saying that one day it’s more likely that people will want to profit from this. And there are ways to do that without compromising the vision.
So they had to rewrite it, I see. That makes it harder at least, but you are right that it is still possible then.
There is nothing wrong with making profit if it’s done in an ethical way.
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While I liked the original post, this is a perfect summary :D
The bot missed one of the key points that the party trying to get across. The fact that they nameless website seemed idealistic actually hid that it was an advertising platform, and it just can’t be hidden anymore.
That was fucking amazing. I remember when I first went on reddit ages ago, this was the type of content I saw the most along with memes. 10/10 with or without rice!
You okay dude?
I feel much better now, thank you. How are you?
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This situation has highlighted a conflict of ideals between the different groups that composed Reddit.
There’s a group who want the fediverse to succeed and are wholly committed to the tech - they forgo Reddit because they discuss the platform here.
There’s another that hates what Reddit represents and have been looking for the next Digg-to-Reddit style migration event. They are happy to be the catalyst for it, as they want everyone to migrate to a new platform entirely.
And then the remainder are people who want a stable homebase for content, with no particular interest in this situation. They stick to Reddit because it has the content in the format they can tolerate.
Right now, the first two groups have moved over here. We’re made up from the ~20-30%of older, grumpier, much less profitable Redditors. Make no mistake, Reddit is glad to see us go. The users who haven’t shifted yet genuinely don’t care about the issues that caused us to move.
Like you alluded to, if enough of the content creating users haven’t shifted (who probably represent 1% of total users) then this place is not attractive to the ~70% of users who haven’t moved. The first group don’t care about bringing Reddit over. The second group is basically demanding they move, but don’t understand why they won’t.
The solution is this:
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Stop caring about beating Reddit.
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Make non-drama related posts on your chosen Reddit alternative.
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Grow communities that are welcoming.
Reddit isn’t in a direct rivalry with the fediverse. It’s in a war of attention with everything else. Discord is much more likely to be a threat to Reddit than Lemmy or Kbin. Some people will leave Reddit and not come here. Others who have never used Reddit will find their way here eventually. We shouldn’t look at this as Reddit’s death, but as the birth of a new platform that lives along side all the rest.
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That was fucking amazing. I remember when I first went on reddit ages ago, this was the type of content I saw the most along with memes. 10/10 with or without rice!
