If you’re at all aware of what goes in farming in Australia you know it’s a massive horror show. From chicken macerators to pig gas chambers animals suffer massively to end up on your plate.
Every Australian I’ve ever spoken to describes themselves as loving animals, and is horrified at things such as whaling. Most of us even find activities like puppy milling or hunting upsetting.
In light of this; and the knowledge that a few decades ago whaling was a-ok, monkeys didn’t matter, and elephants certainly didn’t feel pain; what makes you confident that what you were raised to consider beneath consideration actually is?
Eating animals is neither necessary nor nice, so why do it?
Because a fully vegan/vego diet is not trivially accessible for me. I rarely prepare meals at home, and eat out/order in a lot, and the effort of moving to a fully vegan/vego diet would be non trivial.
A vegetarian diet is something I would quite happily adopt if it was more readily available, but it’s not trivial, and it’s not a high enough priority issue for me to be able to sustain a non trivial solution over the long term
What do you think about people who sideline trans justice issues because it would cost them social standing or friends etc?
I don’t expect active support from everyone, but if there is a chance to support trans issues at no cost to yourself, I would expect people to make that choice.
What about some cost though? Like if someone’s friend is actively being transphobic you’d probably expect them to step in right?
I don’t expect people to lose friendships over an issue that is distant from their experiences, no.
I’d welcome push back, but we can’t all prioritise every issue, and I don’t expect people to. As long as they’re not adding to the transphobia or encouraging it, they’re on the correct side of things.
Well fair enough, if you think people should prioritise their own comfort over justice then at least you’re consistent. It is beyond my ability to convince you otherwise.
Grew up with (and later worked on) a family operated feedlot. From being inducted/fed in the feedlot to the process of being sent to the abattoir. Occasionally, we’d have butchers out to the feedlot for when the owners had their own beast killed for food.
So I’d say a bit of desensitisation but also they don’t have too bad a life in the feedlot (imo obviously) and when they’re killed, at least on site, it’s over before they know what’s happened. Feedlot has cameras around the stock camp and feedlot in general. For security but also, mishandling cattle will get you sacked. Electric prods are no longer allowed except for particular unruly cattle. Mishandled cattle are stressed cattle, and stressed cattle are more likely to get injured (or even hurt themselves). If these cattle die or have to be euthanised it’s a loss; so it’s a business decision more than moral one. Edit: I also recall some form of accountability where their footage could be randomly inspected; resulting in fines if mistreatment is seen (I could be wrong but I think that’s right).
Can’t speak to other feedlots or types of farming (excluding planting). Dated vegans before; enjoy meat replacements even if I’m still Omni and generally try to reduce my meat consumption for health and environmental reasons.
Have you had a look at https://www.farmtransparency.org/ ? it’s real stuff going on right now. you don’t need meat replacements etc, beans and rice are the bulk of most plant based diets. Cheap as chips and healthy as.
I’ve seen sites similar (except specifically for abuse cases) and read “eating animals”. Found the feedlot I worked at on the site you linked and they have no record (fortunately). No one really “needs” anything apart from that required for survival. However, the majority of humans are omni so making product that appeal to them will result in more of us considering moving beyond meat.
I’ve got no problem with vegans or people being meat free, I respect it. That said, the majority of humans are and have been omni since recorded history so it’s not as simple as “just” not eating meat. The gut biome transition alone is enough to put off a lot of people, even if it passes somewhat quickly.
This seems like half an argument from nature, which is a bit odd. I mean I don’t see you arguing against using antibiotics despite most humans since recorded history not using them or whatever.
Tradition is a bad argument for anything. Either it is right or wrong to kill animals when we don’t need to. I’m sure you take a rather dim view of whaling because it is unnecessary, despite it being deeply entwined with many cultures and historically common. Or dog fighting or whatever.
Why is eating cows different to whaling, fighting dogs, or using elephants in circuses. If we don’t need to eat them it’s only for fun we do.
I can see that, more to point out current social norms or “tradition” as you put it. If the majority of people are currently omni and they have no external reason to change; they won’t. Psychosocial factors/status quo might be what I’m appealing to?
Well I’d assert that those cases are not all equal. Cattle in feedlots probably don’t live the same lives as dogs that fight each other; often to the death. Whales are important to their ecosystem (and we could fish them into extinction). It’s also just super wasteful to kill whales for oil/food when we have other ways of sourcing those materials. Elephants can practically never be sufficiently well kept by a circus (except a wealthy company maybe) and are incredibly social animals so there’s no way in my mind to keep them in a circus in a humane way.
I think the main problem veganism/vegos face is PR/marketing. For example, I feel like far more people would become meatless for environmental reason rather than comparing “modern” farming to dog fighting. Which feels more like guilting than anything and puts the receiver immediately on the defensive. Factory farming and abusive farming practices in general can get fucked though.
But cows in feedlots necessarily die… I mean most fighting dogs don’t get chained to that eating fence. Or say broiler chickens, stuck in a shed and frequently having their own bones collapse under their growing weight. Even that aside, surely if I told you I intend to breed dogs, pamper them, then at 2 years old bolt gun them and repeat you’d be a little aghast? no?
You’re a bit all over the shop and I don’t want you to feel like I’m not listening to you. So what do you want to talk about of the following:
- environmental impact (whales are important to ecosystems)
- waste (it’s wasteful to kill whales)
- Quality of life/the repugnant conclusion
- what it means to be humane
- whether it is possible to eat meat without factory farming
Or if there is another issue you’d rather talk about?
Yes they do, I don’t think I implied otherwise, my point was the way they live and are killed is different. The reason for doing so is a factor too. E.g. dogs that are killed in illegal dog fighting aren’t eaten after(not it would make it ok if they were), whales, etc. Cattle in feedlots can be reasonably expected to live humane lives and killed in a humane manner. The same cannot be said for any of the cases that you mentioned. Hence my elaborating on them for the sake of comparison.
I’d be aghast if you were doing so recreationally. If we lived in a culture that ate dogs, probably not, depending on the manner in which they’re raised and killed. This sort of stuff is what I’m referring to feeling like “guilting” as it’s probably not super common for people who eat meat to be fond of boltgunning puppies.
I mean I’m happy to discuss whatever you like; but my participation here is to answer the original question and provide insight as why I eat meat and address common point vegans discuss I.e. the condemning factory farming remark.
not it would make it ok if they were
Wait, would it be ok to farm dogs in your eyes? Like does the reason for their death matter? Food or fighting it’s all pleasure since it’s not healthy or cheap to eat meat, nor is it environmentally friendly.
You keep using the word humane, the dictionary definition of that word is: Characterized by kindness, mercy, or compassion
That obviously can’t be what you mean, as it is not compassionate, kind, or merciful to kill someone when they don’t need to die. What do you mean by it?
I’d be aghast if you were doing so recreationally
Isn’t eating meat recreational? It’s not healthy, necessary, or environmentally friendly. The only reason to do so is that it is pleasurable. I.e. it is a recreational activity. Unless you are an Inuit or something that depends on hunting to survive.
My health doesn’t hold up (have a couple of issues that can interfere with my ability to absorb nutrients). I was vegetarian for a long time though not vegan. Now I seek out regenerative farming practices and eat the odd bit of meat…a serve of red meat a week and daily yoghurt make a big difference to me.
That also sits well with my ethics - I’ve seen many broad acre oat/legume/wheat farms with practices that destroy ecosystems and soils and I’ve seen small scale permaculture based mixed farms that include animals in the mix. People like to argue in black and white but there’s a lot more to it. I do my best to be an informed consumer regardless.
I am vegan. It’s great! Highly recommend it!
incredibly based.
This has more than run its course, I’ll give the benefit of the doubt as to whether this was in good faith or simply looking to argue and sealion.
Truth be told I don’t find hunting upsetting. It’s the way of nature. Hunted wild venison and pork is some of the most delicious meat I’ve eaten. Probably goes without saying but deer and pigs are introduced pests which damage the environment and threaten diversity in Australia and New Zealand, so I have no qualms about hunting them.
Factory farms yeah they can be a bit crap which is why I tend to look for free range meat and eggs.
I’m not opposed to eating plant based meals, I do it probably two dinners a week at present. However overdoing legumes which seem to be pretty popular in plant based meals tends to create a lot of greenhouse gas in the vicinity of my arse.
Also dairy. Sorry but cheese, I fucking love cheese. Plus I’ve tried every non dairy milk in existence, they just don’t come close in a longmac topped up.
Tastes good and pisses off hippies. Win win in my book
I’m eating a mostly carnivore diet which includes fruit, milk, eggs, and honey. Animal meat and organs are abundant in nutrients which are not as readily available in plant matter.
I would have to eat a large amount of vegetables to even get half the amount of nutrients I’d get from meat, and I’d also get terribly bloated as a result. Furthermore, plant seeds, leafs, roots, and basically everything else except fruit have defense chemicals in them that makes animals and insects not want to eat them, and consuming these over time these cause a low level of inflammation in the human body. So no thanks, vegan life isn’t for me.
Sucks that animals have to die for me to enjoy this diet, but even when I lived on a farm and had to sacrifice animals I liked for meals I did it anyway. I can’t compromise my nutrition and overall health because I feel bad about the animals.
Neither chicken macerators nor pig gas chambers cause animals to “suffer massively”. The idea of that kind of industrial scale slaughter might be horrifying to you for various reasons, but those examples provide quick deaths for the animals.
There’s certainly areas of animal welfare in the agriculture industry that can be improved, but there is a big difference between things we might find disturbing and things that actually cause suffering for the animals.
Like, nature is cruel. Animals in the wild die of disease, parasites, starvation, burning to death in bushfires and getting eaten alive. Comparing the lives of animals in agriculture to animals living in the wild, in most cases I think the domestic animals (at least in Australia and other countries with strong animal welfare laws) are suffering less.
For me its a few things.
The availability of alternative options and their price - I’m not a rich fella…
The variety/options - if I want fast food the options are 90% meat based, or they’re a salad/veggie burger. If I’m hungry and in a rush, it’s too convenient to find myself in a drive-through and too disinteresting to pick a vegan option while I’m there.
If I go to a restaurant the options feel like they’re all either capsicum or mushroom based, neither of which I am into - or they’re just something I could make at home much cheaper. Why spend $20 on a pasta while I’m at a restaurant? If I’m out eating with family, the parma or steak are just much more attractive options to me
Variety in my own home is another issue for me… Generally speaking I don’t eat meat at home. I have greatly reduced my meat intake, and dairy too. I used to have meat with every lunch and dinner in some form - now I only have oat milk at home, never really stock or cook red meat, very rarely have chicken and I do have fish perhaps an average of once a week… But I’m tired of quiche, pasta and golden curry… I’m not a professional chef… I’m not great in the kitchen… I love roast broccoli with other roast veg, but really don’t love zucchini, mushrooms, eggplant or capsicum so my options for vegan foods are dramatically reduced…
Ultimately, I am trying to reduce my intake but it’s made more difficult by the above for me, personally.
I love animals. I used to volunteer at a wild life animal shelter. And yet I love to dig into a juicy beef steak. I love the taste, the texture, the nutrients. To add a little more context, as a child I’ve spent a lot of time on a farm and I know how food is made. It doesn’t bother me.
