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I love these wholesome debates. Let’s all hate on each other as we fight over scraps from the Master’s table.
Easy. Companies themselves should not care about the employees families. They have no benefit from a person having children. Governments should very much care about people having children. All benefits - if any, should be decided on the goverment level. And companies will have to adhere to the law. Firms chase their own benefits. The goverment (should) work for the benefit (and future) of all citizens.
This one is wildly different between Europe and the US context.
And everyone should have a stable home, healthcare, good paying job, etc.
Fairness shouldn’t depend on your personal life—flexibility should be about people, not categories.
I agree in principle, and do sometimes get mildly annoyed having to cover for people because they are out due to parental obligations, but overall I really don’t mind or care that much. I’ve had to do it a number of times now and sometimes it can be very stressful but that’s why I get paid. Being a parent sucks so I feel bad for them having to put up with all the bullshit, it’s not like they are off having fun when they can’t be at work because their kid is shitting uncontrollably with a high fever or whatever nightmare is going on. Not having kids is great, the occasional extra work or responsibilities that comes with being more reliable than coworkers with kids is the tiniest of tradeoffs for me. Maybe it helps that I like my coworkers and am happy they get to be responsible parents. Additionally, if your boss or someone higher up is out on extended parental leave it can be beneficial to your career if you fill in for them and get some time working “above your station” because your org gets forced into it. I know it was for me early in my career.
As a haver of kids: Sure, why not? I’ll take some smoke breaks as a non-smoker, too. I’m saying this unironically or whatever by the way, that second part isn’t supposed to be a gotcha or anything. I’m also a worker in the US so I’m biased, used to workplaces that go the extra mile to try and squeeze every ounce of both productivity and humanity out of you. Give everyone all the flexibilities!
Caring the reason why someone needs flex time is a bullshit thing.
That’s exactly what this post is saying.
ITT: people thinking that offering everybody the same flexibility means taking that flexibility from parents
smfh
It absolutely does. If you have 2 employees and 1 works from home due to kids. All of a sudden the other guy gets butt hurt cuz he wants to work from home now you have to accommodate the asshole that wants to work from home so he can sleep in.
why can’t they both work from home if they both have the same position?
how does the other guy working from home nagatively affect the parent?
if your answer is “because then the parent has to go in”, then they don’t have the same position
either the position allows for wfh, or it doesn’t.
But that’s not taking anything from the one that has kids. They still get to work from home
Can you explain how allowing both employees to work remotely “means taking that flexibility from parents”? Also, why do you characterize people who want to work remotely as assholes? This reads like you have some kind of personal animosity you’re expressing here rather than a considered opinion based in something legitimate.
How do you know the worthless parents aren’t sleeping in? What’s this assumption that suddenly they’re responsible adults because they popped out a kid? That’s not guaranteed, I’ll tell you that.
ITT: people pretending others “cheese” some unfair advantages by having kids when having kids is almost always a net negative in terms of time, money, career opportunities and so much more.
People who choose not to have kids do so for a reason, don’t pretend these factors don’t exist for parents. As a society we need a next generation, how would you ever retire otherwise? Because of this we should support parents, not envy them for whatever small benefits they get to slightly offset all the disadvantages and are often absolutely necessary to allow them to raise kids.
The only thing my heart can count as net negative is sleep time. It is completely fuked. Btw do not expect colleagues to help you. Do not expect your parents to help you. Everyone has their own life
Net negative… You either don’t have a kid or had it unplanned. It is hard but no way it is net negative if you knew beforehand and made a responsible decision
If you’re a man.
Having children is almost always a net negative for women. There’s even a term for it: “The Motherhood Penalty”
I’d say it depends.
Of course it depends - I’m sure there are women out there with very supportive employers who didn’t see any decrease in their wages related to them being mothers.
But the majority of women, even when a child is planned, experience a net negative on their total earnings and career advancements.
Men simply don’t see that kind of treatment from becoming fathers.
Once you make the workplace adjustments and accommodations for parents, there’s no good reason not to do the same for everyone. It’s like cutting curbs or making wide doors for wheelchair access. Once you’ve convinced the company to do it for new premeses, why would they ever decide to make some without that access? Shits and giggles?
If you’re talking about mat/pat leave then that’s a separate thing (which everyone should definitely get)
Of course childless people have needs too and deserve workplace flexibility. This post smacks of looking into your neighbor’s bowl though. If you don’t have all the additional obligations that come with parenting, don’t claim to be the same as those who do. Whatever life concerns you also have: your own health, aging parents, mental wellness, pets, etc etc etc parents ALSO have on top of kids. So get the workplace flexibility you need without crying about what parents get. If you know, you know. And if you don’t know, you really don’t know (but your mother does).
I’m so fucking sick of being looked at like a prodigal slob for being a parent. SMfH. Here we are taking swipes at each other instead of focusing on the employers. Good job playing right into their hands. Fuck.
Nobody has anything against parents getting these benefits or is saying that they don’t need them. What’s the problem is that everyone should be getting them, parents or not.
I can agree with that as far as it goes. In some workplaces there can be zero sum cases where someone has to be on duty. If it comes to that someone who has a sick kid to look after should get the flexibility over the person who doesn’t. And hey if the parent’s kid is not sick, and the childless person’s grandmother is, then THEY should get the flexibility.
Just stop saying that you need all the same flexibility as parents. You don’t.
Yes. If you can’t take care of your kids and have to rely on strangers (coworkers) to sacrifice their life, don’t have kids.
I beg to differ - there are definitely people in here that are against parents getting these benefits.
What’s shocking to me is that people are blaming parents more than the system/employers that overburdens the workers without kids.
Yeah I just tune those people out. Advocating for a child free existence is all well and good, and believe me, there isnt a parent on this planet that hasn’t had a split second thought about how much easier it was before they had kids at some point or another.
But when it crosses the line to militancy, sorry but people are gonna breed, and whether they think thats appropriate or not frankly isnt their concern and their opinion on that carries precisely as much weight with me as my opinion to have children likely has on them…literal none.
But whatever they do, dont call having kids some kind of path to fuckin easy street. If they think that is the case, I invite them to come over and take care of my kids for a couple days and see how much fun it is.
But whatever they do, dont call having kids some kind of path to fuckin easy street. If they think that is the case, I invite them to come over and take care of my kids for a couple days and see how much fun it is.
Yeah this idea that parents get all these concessions and rewards and tax deductions that make their lives demonstrably easier than anyone else’s is laughable. Even the paper napkin math on that doesn’t work out in the slightest.
Seriously - the employers could end all of this nitpicking about who gets what by simply offering the same level of time off and flexibility to everyone.
Parents aren’t the enemy here and never have been.
If everyone had the flexibility for everything they need in life, people would still complain if parents get more because they need more.
If childless people aren’t getting the minimum they need for health and wellness and family care or whatever might be named, then go agitate for that. Leave parents out of it.
I don’t need the same accommodations as a worker in a wheelchair. I’m not running around saying everyone should get them.
Raising kids is literally essential work to support human civilization. People gripe about parental benefits but somehow still want children raised well to do all the jobs and create this world we live in.
The people complaining can suck it.
Employers should still offer enough flexibility for everyone to have a good work/life balance. Period. Does that mean some people like parents and caregivers may need more at times? Yes and so be it.
I still believe everyone should be able to take time as they need it and in the manner in which they need to take it.
Agree completely. Even better, that’s what my employer offers. Take time off when you need it. As long as your work is done there is no cap. Any job can be remote. All teams are distributed and international so there is really no set hours.
My work place is similar - everyone can take time off as they need it. We all support one another. Get the work done. Go home and enjoy your life.
I am one of 2 people in my department and we service the entire continent. He has been on paternity leave THREE TIMES in the years i’ve been here and each time he gets 5 weeks off.
I swear every time he takes off, it’s a busy part of the year and i’m absolutely slammed doing everything by myself and customers don’t understand.
Then he also gets like 4 weeks of vacation, so it feels really unfair for me with my dog and no kids. But then again, i hate kids and want nothing to do with them, so i guess he needs those 5 weeks.
You make it sound like paternity leave is a vacation. The poor bastard didn’t sleep for 4 of those 5 weeks.
His wife is a stay at home mom, so I think it’s a break for her more than for him. She finally gets help during the day.
The amount of times my maternity leave was referred to as a vacation…ugh.
Dude seriously. I had a whopping two weeks off for my paternity leave and people were seriously acting like Id just come back from holiday.
The first week I literally lived at the hospital (major complications with the delivery). The second week I was home with the infant alone as my wife wasnt released yet. What vacation? I slept like 24 hours total in two weeks time.
I had two weeks for maternity leave as well. First week in the hospital with a new abdominal wound and a newborn that didn’t know the difference between day and night yet. Second week was for crying every day that I had to go back to work.
Maybe they should hire another person. Your problem shouldn’t be with this dude who’s doing this thing that literally creates a new generation.
And you should get a legit amount of vacation, but paternity leave also isn’t vacation.
But he also needs to stop having his kids during busy season, come on guy.
I guarantee that during those 5 weeks paternity he was jealous of your office work and well defined sleep schedules.
I mean he wanted the kid more apparently
Yeah we should all want to be wage slaves and make that a priority over our own families and loved ones.
Yeah we all should be baby machines, making sure the labour force is big enough…
God forbid people want to experience the joy of parenthood.
God forbid people want to enjoy a life without them
No one is forcing you to have kids, dude.
It’s not your coworker’s fault that your employer unfairly punishes you when he has to take time off for his kids.
I swear every time he takes off, it’s a busy part of the year and i’m absolutely slammed doing everything by myself and customers don’t understand.
Yeah because he should be timing what months he has sex with his wife to accommodate your employers’ schedule /s
This is the fault of your employer for understaffing your department.
I have kids, worked full time as a parent for 25 years and no problem with this. Set the baseline flexibility and treatment good enough to accommodate parents. You don’t need to take it from childless people to give it to parents. Not a zero sum game here.
What I do have a problem with is hostility towards parents, and hostility towards non-parents. We are all in this together, and it’s not frivolous to raise the next generation, someone did that for you. Nor is it selfish to just live your own life - work should not demand our whole lives.
Now that my kids are grown, I still work at a flexible employer, and use that flexibility for doctors appointments, errands to places only open during working hours, and concerts & shows. Would I defer to someone with a child or aged parent with an emergency? Yes. Would I defer to someone with no kids whose partner was having an emergency? Yes.
I’m fine with people with dependents getting higher priority. If you have one pill, one sick person, and one healthy person, you don’t give each of them half a pill for equality sake. https://welleatyouupweloveyouso.com/2023/08/14/what-does-equity-and-equality-have-to-do-with-being-spoiled/
But, also, society in general and employers in specific should strive to provide a level of flexibility to all employees where all of them find joy in their lives.
