This is so stupid, I should probably just walk away, but I think I’ve been permabanned, so it’s worth a try.
The context is a thread titled “Israeli minister says Israel has created and owns the European far right parties”. It consists of a screenshot of a tweet auto-translated from french about an Israeli minister talking about building a network of relationships with European far right parties.
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Which mod was PTB: @[email protected]
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What sanction was imposed: comments removed (whatever), ban from the community [email protected]
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Screenshot of the modlog entry, attached.
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The context of the posts that were originally removed is basically:
- a factual post that OP’s title does not follow from the content. The tweet talks about Israel helping build the European far right alliance, not “creating” and “owning” the European far right.
- In response to another user pushing back, I think we got a bit of a misunderstanding with the meaning of the word “conspiracy”, with me taking the word literally and arguing that the framing of “conspiracy” is basically an antisemitic trope harkening to the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. There is a bit of (I think respectful) back and forth, which I think basically would have been resolved in a couple more turns.
- The mod intervenes and removes my posts without banning me yet. The mod accuses me of “dismissing anti-Zionism as antisemitic conspiracies”, “parroting pro-Zionist rhetoric” and “apologia” and “accusations of antisemitism”.
- I respond to the mod, underneath and that gets me banned. I don’t seem to have access to the post that triggered the ban, it does not appear in the modlog, but after the mod removed a 3 posts with the accusation of trolling, bad faith, zionist apologia and zionist rhetoric, I basically said “you misunderstood me, but I’m not going to “try to play chess with a pigeon”, just FYI I was not trolling, I was arguing in good faith and I was trying to say that we don’t need employ harmful antisemitic tropes in antizionist rhetoric”. I guess the most offensive thing I said was the pigeon-playing-chess, thing.
- That gets me banned as a “bad faith zionist troll”, with a nice little final message “Sayonara you worthless Zionist apologist.” Power tripping much?
- Why I think that’s unfair, and what I would ask as remedy:
Read my freaking posts. I am not doing zionist apologia. I’m not pushing zionist rhetoric. I am not trolling, and I’m engaging in good faith. I’m repeatedly referring to Israel as the “genocidal Israeli apartheid regime”.
What I am doing is pointing out that the conspiratorial framing is unnecessary and harmful. I am not conflating antizionism with antisemitism, I quite specifically say so. What I am saying is that “there exist antisemitic ways of doing antizionist politics”, which, I don’t know man, I think it’s …pretty obvious? My strongest claim is in the longer of my removed comments:
it is possible to do anti-Zionist politics in an anti-Semitic way. Let’s not fucking do that. Let’s instead do anti-Zionist politics in an anti-fascist way.
This is basic shit, no? In what fucking way is saying “let’s do anti-Zionist politics in an anti-fascist way” even remotely “zionist apologia”?! I mean, come on.
In terms of the substance of my disagreement in the discussion that was interrupted, I honestly think that it was a misunderstanding about the word “conspiracy” that would have been resolved in a couple of turns. In my view, the Israeli regime is publicly organizing the European fascists, so there is no “conspiracy”, it’s literally in the open. The conspiratorial framing only hurts the antizionist attack, because of its antisemitic roots. Before the mod intervened to gut the discussion, I was trying to clarify the language of “conspiracy” with the other user.
To summarize: I think the mod jumped the gun, being triggered by the word “antisemitism”. Yes, the Israeli propaganda machine uses the accusation of antisemitism as chaff, but that doesn’t mean we need to turn off our own critical thinking. We can freaking do better than give actual pro-Israeli apologists hooks to accuse the antizionist movement of antisemitism.
As a remedy, just lift the ban, for fuck’s sake.
EDIT: I’m unsure how the notifications work, but for full transparency, I have just sent the mod this DM, to let zir know that I started this thread:
If it is bad etiquette to send such a heads up via DM, I apologize and take responsibility.
EDIT2: Seems like some trolls and sock puppets have been brigading the thread and posting zionist shit and unacceptable language directed at the mod. I also see the mod locked the original thread due to some of those sock puppets spilling over to there. That’s all just shitty and toxic for any kind of nuanced discussion in our communities, as well as any kind of reasonable resolution to this mess. So stupid. I never meant this to spawn a freaking harassment campaign, this is so frustrating. Boo.
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PTB, I don’t see any pro Zionist rhetoric and much less any trolling, thus no rule was broken. OP was clearly just exposing their arguments, and, agree or not with those arguments, they are fully within the community rules, so action against them seems unjustified.
I tend to favor evaluations in this community staying away from the original topic. This is one of those cases where it’s impossible to address without doing so.
I don’t think any reasonable person could read the comments presented and come out with the same take on their content. It was the opposite of apologia, and doesn’t get close enough to zionism to even shoot it in the ass, much less be confused with it.
As such, it would be at least mild PTB with comment removals only. But a ban under that reasoning? No way. Full PTB, and I would even argue that it’s severe enough that the mod in question may need to be removed from their position. I don’t think I’ve ever actually said that here before, about anyone. Thought it a couple of times, but never felt something met my inner threshold that I should say it.
This one? I’m not sure why the mod in question reached the conclusion they did, and I’m trying to wrap my head around it. I just can’t see it being for any acceptable reason. Even if it was a bad day and a misinterpretation, that’s still time to take a step away from moderation, even if temporary. That’s how severe of an overreaction and outright fabrication of cause this one is.
No fewer than two new Lemmy accounts were created in the last three hours just to flood this post with hasbara.
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At least three accounts now.
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I’m not going to “try to play chess with a pigeon”, just FYI I was not trolling, I was arguing in good faith
Name-calling is not ‘good faith’.
Are you referring to the “chess with a pigeon” phrase?
Have you ever played Chess with a pigeon? That’s what @[email protected] is like. Fuck her. To bad you can’t kill and eat her like a pigeon.
Namecalling is more than deserved when the target is a Nazi cunt like @[email protected] who defends the Elders of Zion conspiracy. Fuck that whore!
The far-right in Europe would indeed exist without outside help; Russia, Israel, and the U.S. have merely been financing it to support its growth as a means of destabilizing their governments and the EU. Far-right politicians are also then more likely to adopt policies favoring the sources of their funding.
Given that your comments clearly demonstrate that you’re not a zionist, I think this is just another case of the flotilla’s zionist alarm being a bit too sensitive.
Yeah, the far-right parties would exist without outside influence, but they would not be currently be as large as a threat to democracy and standing together as a united europe without the meddling of outsiders. These powers fear what would happen if europe would put their differences aside and work together for real - because Europe would become a powerhouse that would probably look a lot like the supremacy they projected during colonial times. The amount of freedom Europe offers is a direct threat to any autocratic government.
Agreed; Russia doesn’t want Europe to be a united front against its irredentist ambitions, while the U.S. doesn’t want Europe to be united independent of it. Both would rather see it divided and are funding efforts to that end.
20% of people are born inclined toward authority like fascism. They will pop up anywhere regardless of funding. I doubt they’d have the influence they do, though.
Shroom is becoming kinda notorious for power trips like these, it’s not the first nor second nor third time this happens. At this point, communities they moderate should be just be avoided
Here’s the thing about some of these people: perpetuating the idea that being critical of the Israeli government or Zionism, is the same as anti-semitism, is in the Israeli government’s interests. It helps push the narrative that anyone who opposes the Netenyahu government is an anti-semite.
It wouldn’t surprise me if at least some supposedly pro-Palestinian voices are managed opposition. People who wittingly or most likely unwittingly are repeating narratives that serve Israeli interests, paint critics of Israel in a bad light, and serve to divide the opposition to Israel internationally.
For example, according to recent polling American Jews are quite critical of the Israeli government. American Jews are more likely than the average American to be critical of Netenyahu, more likely to think that the US is too supportive of Israeli, more likely to think that the US should support the Palestinians more, more likely to be in favour of the establishment of an independent Palestinian state, etc. etc. Who does it serve to alienate Jews in the US? You surely want the Jon Stewarts of this world to be on your side.
It’s a bit like an agent provocateur who tries to turn a peaceful protest violent, because it’ll allow the authorities to paint protesters as violent thugs and scare off reasonable average citizens from joining protests.
This being said, I assume most people being horrible and undermining the cause they claim to support, are simply complete and utter morons.
She needs to be banned, she is a Nazi cunt!
No, just a leftoid who has gone insane which is a common occurrence. Who really needs to be banned are accounts like yours whose whole purpose is to harass a single person, maybe instead of doing that you should check this wiki article out
I normally hate the “touch grass” thing because it’s turned into a horrible thing. But that was the best use of it I’ve seen in years lol.
PTB, I don’t see how see how your comments can be described as ‘Zionist apologia’.
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You’ve linked a comment by someone else?
Edit: They (OP and the person you linked to) also don’t have their pronouns anywhere, so I don’t know why you’re assuming he/him.
My bad I though it was the OP. Sorry for that
I saw that earlier. Thought it was super weird you got banned for what posting what was clearly criticism of Isreal. Looks like the mod has a hair trigger for any individual sentence that isn’t 100% “death to zionists.”
They kept conflating Israel with Judaism. If we agree that Israel do not represent Judaism and jews then it can’t be an antisemitic trope to even falsely accusing Israel of doing something. It is true the title was not accurate which is wrong thing to do but you don’t have to accuse people of using antisemitic tropes . I speaks french so the tweet do not talk about Israel creating the far right movement but they talk about creating a network of far right movement which is proved by the fact Usa and Israel support for Argentina , El Salvador , Colombia and also all Europe far right governments clearly support israel unconditionally
You fundamentally misunderstand the problem of conflation between Israel and Judaism.
A subgroup that pretends to speak for all members of the supergroup can still be subjected to bigotry targeted to the supergroup even if they don’t represent everyone.
Example: The Chinese Communist Party claims there is only one China and that it speaks for it. The Taiwanese government disputes this. Ethnic Chinese people also exist in a very large diaspora all around the world. So we can say that the CCP does not represent all of Chinese civilization. Imagine if Joe Schmoe writes a text attacking the CCPs human rights record and in that text they use sinophobic stereotypes (that eg Chinese people are slavish). The fact that the CCP does not represent all Chinese people should not mean that we cannot criticize Joe Schmoe for using sinophobic language to make a valid point about human rights. In fact, Schmoe’s use or these racist slurs weakens the argument, strengthens anti-chinese rhetoric that hurts Chinese people regardless of their attachment to the CCP, and gives CCP propagandists an easy way to say that Schmoe doesn’t really care about human rights and just has an axe to grind against all Chinese people.
The mistake you’re making is the same as if you’re categorically denying that sinophobic tropes can even matter when discussing the CCP because it should not be conflated with all Chinese people and in the past the CCP has itself used this conflation as a shield.
What antisemitism was used in the original thread?
Seems like OP is trying to pretend the word conspiracy itself is antisemitic.
You say “pretend” as if I was lying? I do think that in the context of the original thread that was saying that basically Israel “created and owns” European fascist parties, the conspiratorial framing is an anti-Semitic trope. It takes actual historical social and political forces and shoehorns them into a frame that they are inventions in the service of Israel. What actually happened is that European fascism grew organically from endogenous European contradictions, and the Israeli apartheid regime found it natural to ally with it. This was done publicly, therefore a conspiratorial framing is inaccurate and only serves as a hook for old-school antisemitic tropes. My argument is “let’s avoid these risky tropes”. I am not pretending anything. But for some reason it seems some people are so burned by Zionist propaganda that they have forgotten that antisemism exists in Western political discourse regardless of its shameless weaponization by Israel.
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But the post wasn’t implying that? That was OP trying to discredit the post by implying it was.
A post from an Israeli politician saying they helped the far right is not an antisemitic trope, it is literally just Israel saying what it is doing.
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If group X do not represent group Y then trope against X is tropes against X not Y regardless if there is intersection between the two groups.
Netenyahu loves people like you. Israel does what jews was accused for wrongly then will tell you , you are antisemitic or using antisemitic tropes .You can say that the title of the article was not accurate or that the word control is the wrong word and that we should use influence instead without accusing people of using antisemitic tropes .
By this logic, using an anti-black racial trope for the Crips is fine because the Crips don’t represent Black people.
You are dead wrong.
If you make a false claim about crips without believing they represent black then you lied about the crips not the black people. I don’t understand how you don’t understand that simple logic. Netanyahu is talking like you he always say how facts about Israel war crimes and terrorism are antisemitic tropes, they are not . Jews as an ethnoreligious group was accused of putting influence on politicians to get what they want , it is a trope because it was never factual, israel lobby getting what they want by influencing politicians and media corporate is factual.
You really don’t get it, do you?
Write a sentence that uses a nasty racist trope but direct it to the Crips as opposed to all black people.
Write “the Crips are XYZ” and make XYZ some nasty nasty racist shit.
Go ahead, write it. Don’t post it, for fuck’s sake, nobody needs to see that shit. Then cover it with your hand, wait 10 seconds and re-read it.
Are you feeling embarrassed? If not, I honestly don’t know what else to tell you.
You should be embarrassed to repeat Netanyahu rhetoric bullshit.
Write “the Crips are XYZ” and make XYZ some nasty nasty racist shit.
I never advocated to say racist shit.
Ah, Fantastical Fungi, at it again.
So very surprised.
Just like fungus, she is rotten to her core. She is the essence of rot itself.
Respect people’s pronouns.
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You have about three accounts worth of making yourself look like an idiot just in this thread lol. It’s a bit late for that.
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She’s a fascist cunt who supports the idea the Jews control the world!
I don’t acknowledge you.
Yeah, not the first time ze popped up here. Drama loves zir.
s/he/ze/g s/him/zir/g
You can assess ze loves to induce drama without disrespect zir pronouns.I am extremely aware the German ref.
damn i forgot again, sorry, fixed. no disrespect meant.
Edit: Neopronouns seem to be surprisingly hard for me - especially when my mind replaces the respective user with “der Moderator” in german.
Auf Deutsche: “sie Moderator”
If you use her dumbass made up pronouns you are letting her make an ass out of you. You sound stupid using made up words a child might make.
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I fully agree with your stance. There is for sure large scale interference by various right-wing governments in europe, propping up the fascist parties in various countries and supplying them with money and propaganda. Obvious offenders are Israel, USA, Russia and to a lesser degree China, and i am sure there are more players out there.
Being antizionist does not have anything to do with antisemitism unless there is an amount of stupidity involved. Israel is playing this pretty well - since Judaism, Jews and Israel are a tight-knit unit, it’s hard for some people to separate Zionism from the bunch. That’s for example the issue hampering the reaction of the german government, that feels that they will get burnt regardless of the move they make if they take a stand against Zionism.
Why that Mod wasn’t able to follow your chain of thought is something i cannot understand. The only reasoning that makes the mod just human is that ze misread what you meant; every other reasoning makes zir look… pretty bad.
PTB for sure if your ban isn’t lifted.
The mod uses ze/zir pronouns, let’s respect that.
already fixed that before you replied, just saw it after looking over the post in case i missed something, which i did lol (finally saw it when skimming over the PM OP sent to MysticMushroom)
Great!
They could simply talked about how the framing was innacurate instead of accusing people of using antisemetic tropes.
As i replied to you before, the strong binding between Judaism, Jewish genealogy and Israel makes it very hard to not trip anyones “antisemitism” detector when accusing Israel of fucking with european politics.
There is no strong bidding, it is bullshit. like explained in my other comment.
When one group encompasses all of the country which is “the land of the jews”, then - regardless of outliers - this is a very strong semantic binding.
If you have a subgroup consisting of 95% of all available individuals of a group, you cannot make the remaining 5% the defining population.
If the article was about Iran, would you be as critical of the headline and saying it’s islamaphobia?
Muslims have not been persecuted anywhere near as much as the Jewish people have. The fact that you compare them to our suffering is in and of itself antisemitic
You creating a new account every week and having an outburst on this comm is one of the funniest Lemmy drama type things to see. You are basically a child having a tantrum. It brings a smile to my face, knowing you spend a solid hour or two just typing away, your face all scrunched up.
I’m not certain what acting like a tool is supposed to get you, your insults are usually childish and don’t even hit anywhere close to hard.
Don’t talk to me, scum
There is by far no such strong binding between Islam and the Iranian populace that i would be able to make that claim. There are many Islamic countries, and while many of them are lagging behind in acknowledging and protecting human rights, they are a very heterogenous group. The headline would then focus on the country of “whatever islamic country”, and not towards “Muslims in general”. There is only ONE jewish country that also claims to be the home and cradle of all jews.
So when you read Israel, you read “Jews in general”. That’s verbatim for “any critic towards Israel is antisemitism”. It’s zionist propoganda, it forces everyone to walk on eggshells around them.
Israel isn’t anything more than an apartheid country and the cradle of genocide. They don’t represent the global Jewish community. A highly likely accusation when it has nothing to do with their nations main faith isn’t antisemitism. No one except you is saying this is a “Jewish conspiracy”.
It is not the land of jews , no group of people can claim eternal right to a region because humanity started in a single location then human was regularly moving from places to places. It is the land of the citizens that lives in a region, Israelis has the right to Israel including Muslims Israelis , Palestinians has the right to Palestine . It is with the bullshit of the land of jews that Israel never ceased to steal more land and ethnically cleansing Palestinians.
Israel absolutely is the land of the Jews and we have a right to a homeland just as any other people on Earth do! Stop trying to take that away from us you Nazi cunt!
You have no right to colonize the west bank, you have no right to ethnic cleansing . Illan pepe is Israeli he believe in a one state with your dumb zionazi logic you would call him an antisemite.
I agree! But that sadly doesn’t change how the Zionist twisted history and the minds of a large majority of Jews. Palestinians deserve their own state, just like the Kurds deserve their own state. Both are getting fucked over by stronger powers - Zionists on the one side, Turks on the other. There are a lot of people out there (Roma/Sinti in Europe, or natives in the US and Australia, or groups like the Uighurs in China) that deserve their own spot, but the established powers would rather cut off their right hand than give them an inch.
And the same principle is applied internally - the Zionists start with propagandizing the jewish population, and the minority that does not accept the program are ostracized and brutalized as a lesson to anyone who would dare to defy them.
That is what i mean with “you cannot cleanly separate Zionism/Judaism/Jews from one another”. Zionism propagandizes Jews to believe in Zionism, and they are all bound by the same religion that is weaponized against the populace to make sure they support the Zionists. Anyone who doesn’t go with the program gets fucked over until they cannot put up resistance anymore. Ergo: Whatever the Zionists say Judaism and being a Jew is, is reality for the vast majority of Jews.
Putting down Israel is antisemitic! Saying Israel shouldn’t exist is antisemitic and genocidal! Jewish people deserve a safe place in the world as the most persecuted race on earth. Fuck you if you disagree!
Nobody here is saying Israel should be physically destroyed and all Israelis expulsed for the land… Jews being persecuted do not mean Zionists can go to an inhabited region ,ethnically cleansing the land to create a state then continue till this day stealing more land in the west bank.
Saying that Israel shouldn’t exist is saying the Jews should be left out on their ass at the mercy of the world! You might as well be saying they should be destroyed!
Israel today exists so yeah it should not be destroyed, we can’t expulse israelis from the land. Countries can peacefully unite though , it is not antisemitic to believe in a one state solution with Israelis and Palestinians live together. But if you think zionists had the right to ethnically cleansing Palestinians in 48 you are the lowest of the lowest scum and and you would be yourself a zionazi
PTB, she’s defending antisemtitic conspiracy theories about Jews controlling the world!
Israel do not represent jews. The Israeli lobby successfully influencing media and governments is a fact unlike the idea that jews as an ethnoreligious group is controlling the world.
Israel do not represent Jews.
I’m confused. Israel is a democracy and Jews voted for their current government. How can you say Israel doesn’t represent them?
Are you claiming jews support genocide? Because that is what Israel is currently doing. That’s real antisemetism. You are conflating Zionism with Judaism . Saudi Arabia do not represent Muslims either ,one of the first thing Al Saoud did after taking power was to destroy the grave of the prophet family members . Israel do not represent jews because there are many jews who do not support israel, because the builders of the state was terrorist groups that killed jews. For example in the bombing of king david hotel they killed 17. They sabotaged SS Patria killing 237 jews. They assassinated an antizionist Jewish journalist named Jacob Israel de haan. You see israel police constantly beating anti Zionist jews in Israel. You see Israel treating Ethiopian jews badly. Israel bombed a synagogues in Iran.
Rabbi Feldman: "THE STATE OF ISRAEL DOES NOT REPRESENT ALL JEWS
Well of course ‘Israel’ doesn’t represent all Jews. I never said that and neither did you. Israel doesn’t represent all Jews any more than Trump represents all Americans. But, as a democracy, Israel must represent the majority, otherwise this government wouldn’t be in power. So, again, I’m still confused by your statement that Israel doesn’t represent Jews.
israel represents israeli Jews as it is an ethnostate. like all ethnostates it exists to represent and promote the supremacy of a group controlling a territory. however, Judaism and Jewishness have spent the better part of 2 millenia becoming a diasporadic identity. the majority of Jews do not live in Israel. in the diaspora opinions on the zionist project are extremely mixed. that is what @[email protected] is speaking on in this comment
Because Israel do not represent jews an accusation toward Israel is an accusation towards israel not jews. Netanyahu will tell you that saying Israel target of kids is a blood libel and an antisemitic trope but doctors and human right organization show that is true. Jews as a whole was accused in history of killing babies which is wrong. So the first is not a blood libel and not an antisemtic trope but the second is definitely is
One of us is not making sense. Who does Israel represent if not their voters? Why is it controversial to say Israelis voted for their government? This shouldn’t sound like a conspiracy. Why are you trying to make a distinction between Israel / Israelis and Jews? You can’t just say “Well, all the bad stuff is done by Israel / Israelis, but all the good stuff is done by Jews.”
There are Muslims in Israel who vote for Netanyahu or other zionist settler colonial supporting politicians in elections .
Oh shut up you antisemitic pig.
Fuck off you supporter of the terrorist state of israel
🇮🇱 ❤️
Antisemitism is scums like you claiming that Israel is equal the Jewish people and rejecting the fact that the israeli lobby is influencing politicians and financing their campaigns so they can continue to send weapons to Israel to commit genocide
israeli lobby is influencing politicians and financing their campaigns
And there it is. Elders of Zion…
There is no proof of the conspiracy of Elders of Zion being true that is why it is antisemitic. There is evidence of the zionist lobby influencing politicians to support israel colonization of palestine and cracking down or pro palestinians . The zionist lobby do not represent jews. Saying that israel represent jews would make you an antisemite because it would allude that jews globally support israel’s genocide of palestinians
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Source: 🍑
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https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/oct/21/israel-hamas-conflict-palestinian-voices-censored
The Orthodox Jewish Chamber of Commerce has declared a “victory” after pressuring Hilton hotels into cancelling the US Campaign for Palestinian Rights event in Houston later this month at which the congresswoman Rashida Tlaib was to be the main speaker.
I also want to address some comments accusing @[email protected] of being an anti-semite. I have, in another comment, said that I think that Ze’s mistaken in this moderation action given my read on what the user is trying to describe and explore. However, to describe this interpretation of the user’s posts as anti-semitic is to reduce the value of the term “anti-semitic.” When doing this you are doing the work of zionisms self definition of zionism and Jewish identity as being inherently linked by linking all presumptive interpretations toward anti-zionist thought and action to anti-semitism. It is possible for someone to misinterpret what someone is trying to say as being zionist thought without that being expressly anti-semitism.
caveat all of this is just one Jew (myself)'s perspective. So in conclusion:
Cut it the fuck out! Be nice to eachother! Fuck!
She is in support of the idea that Jews control Europe or the world. She is promoting antisemitic conspiracies. She is an antisemite. She thinks Jews made the ideas into antisemitic conspiracy theories so they could conflate them with anti-Zionism. She’s fucking crazy!
I would need screenshots of exactly what the person said before I accuse someone of being an antisemite. especially in a world where the UK is jailing people as terrorists for wearing T-shirts against genocide. I don’t have a problem with people of Jewish faith, but you would have to be blind to not see the Israeli influences at play in most of the western world.
So if this person said things that directly related to ISRAELI meddling I would be inclined to believe them. While if it was general Jews=Bad obviously I would have a problem.
but frankly, there’s not much someone could say to me in any context that would allow me to support the current Israeli administration or their actions. And I’m happy to see anyone even trying to do so on my home-server being removed.
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You know,
First I appreciate the link. People will be able to draw their own conclusions and that’s good.
But I want to make a little digression.
I remember, about 5 years ago now, a time when I didn’t know anything about Israel. It was just…that place where where some Jewish people took pilgrimages. It was a historic place that I gave very little thought to.
And I remember sharing a smoke with a good friend of mine, someone who I consider to be a man of unimpeachable honor and kindness, and I can picture the very moment in my mind that I mentioned something in passing about Israel. It might have had something to do with the Depp trial at the time, I can’t recall.
but I can recall his face twisting into rage and babbling for 20 minutes about the country. A discussion I would later find to be mostly based on well-documented facts. This was well before October 7th mind you. I don’t even think I knew the meaning of the word ‘Zionist.’
Anyway. The point of my digression is this: My position on Israel was formed that day and it’s only ever gotten more firm as the years have passed.
I don’t think what you said reads to me as zionist apologia, but instead as a cogent analysis of how theocratic structures self replicate as a coercive means of control
edit: clarity
