- cross-posted to:
- general
- cross-posted to:
- general
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Hey! This post is not specifically related to the lemmy.world instance. From now on, posts such as these will be removed, in order for the community to stay on topic. However, as this is a highly upvoted post, I’ll just lock it for now.
It’s not that you’re charging for API access; it’s that you’re charging US pharmaceutical industry pricing levels ($12,000 for something that should realistically be $200) and then only giving devs such a short time to implement changes. This was designed to kill 3PApps outright and everyone can see it. What an ass.
Of course they aren’t going back. We saw how arrogant spez was. There was no doubt in my mind he is just going to rely on the fact that most people are rarely committed enough to do anything.
My expectation… Some will stay with the fediverse. Others will see the blackout as a “we did everything we could” and then go back, business as usual.
I for sure will not be back. I like RIF and it is the only way I browse. With RIF gone so too am I.
Unlike some of the 3P [third-party] apps, we are not profitable
It’s their own fault. They didn’t have to take hundred of millions of venture capital and hire thousands of people. They didn’t have to go try to become a XX billion dollars company fighting with Facebook and Tiktok.
They could be profitable with a hundred engineers, a hundred support staff and reasonable ads. They could make delivering ads part of their API and have 3rd party apps serve them for them. They could let those 3rd party app handle the mobile markets since those solo devs are creating better apps than the hundreds of engineers at Reddit.
I’m really annoyed that they are changing a winning formula to build something that nobody wants
There’s this toxic idea in the business world, that in order to be successful you can’t just make money and be profitable, but your profits have to keep increasing year after year. This kind of runaway, cancerous growth is poison to the country and the world.
The founders want to be billionaires, as if being a multimillionaire would not be enough.
This is like if a Grocery chain said that they need to stop selling Lemons to little girls because the lemonade stands were profitable and they aren’t. The scale of the two businesses is not the same… none of these apps have millions of dollars in VC funds or thousands of employees.
But Reddit doesn’t need these thousands of employees, they’re already getting the brunt of the workforce for free (the mods). Like the other guy said, one hundred engineers to manage the platform, 100 customer service to help the mods/do admin and off you go, you just need a few unobtrusive ads to finance that. But that’s way too open and won’t turn you into a billion dollar business nor get you any love from advertisers or VCs, let alone going IPO, so we are where we are.
Agreed. What are all their employees doing? Is reddit basically an adult daycare?
As someone who’s 4 weeks into new job with very unclear duties, there’s definitely a point where a company loses a lot of efficiency because there’s too many people who don’t seem to do much for the company, even those who want to do more for the company.
On the upside its a very low stress job with very good pay and benefits, plus I’m getting to do things like leading trainings that I might not otherwise get to do at this stage of my career
and im willing to pay for API access. If Reddit started charging me a buck or two i would be ok with that. I recognize that servers are not free, and their profit has to come from somewhere.
But charging app devs $20,000,000 a year is NOT the solution.
I would have accepted it… Not anymore. They burned this bridge.
And the Apollo dev said there were things they could have done, but the combination of 30 days notice, and the number of subscribers Apollo had who had prepaid for a year, (at a much lower price) the was no way to make that work. Plus Reddit had promised them no API changes just a few months ago.
They could make delivering ads part of their API and have 3rd party apps serve them for them.
THIS!
Here’s your API passkey. If we catch your app not displaying ads, your passkey be invalidated.
Bobs your uncle, all the browser apps are now delivering your ads.
They also could have saved money by remaining a link aggregator/discussion board instead of deciding to host media as well. Any surge in costs is their own fault.
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I’ve seen people saying “Lemmy can never replace reddit because the instances won’t be able to afford to host video!” …My dudes, I have never once asked my forum / social media site to host videos.
This is the big issue with growth investment or whatever the hell its called. Instead of being happy with a steady revenue, big companies have to always grow until they become completely unsustainable.
It blows my mind that Reddit can look at 90% of its communities going dark in some way and think, “yeah, this is fine.”
EDIT (AGAIN): Thank you all for the comments on total subs. It’s still clearly not 90%, but it still appears to be a significant portion of the active Reddit community. For the interested, check out the comments below for stats. :)
It might be as Louis Rossmann said, it was a mistake to say "we’re going black for two days. They should’ve just says “were going black until you cange the rules again”.
Abstaining for two days is enough to break a habbit.
Reddit’s traffic might not recover for a while.
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Of course it’s up to the user to take action and abstain but if I open Reddit I see posts and can mostly scroll through my feed like it’s any other day. If I wouldn’t have known subreddits went private (and they didn’t sticky a message) I might have not even noticed since I’ll just see posts from subreddits who don’t participate instead. The power that makes Reddit so good is working against the community effort right now.
The first thing I did this morning was open BaconReader from my homescreen before realizing what day it was. I replaced BaconReader with Jerboa to try and break the habit. It’s not easy and I think Reddit knows it.
Is this for real? I wonder if different people’s r/all look different. Mine is a ghost land. I would know something is up instantly. There’s like 20 posts on my front page with 0 up votes from random ass subreddits I’ve never heard of. The content of the posts on the front page is wildly different than normal too.
I never use r/all. But I just checked and most of the top posts I saw yesterday seemed to be there still, so maybe there’s indeed not much going on.
What is Jerboa, if you’ll excuse my ignorance?
It’s the Android app for Lemmy
Lots are just going dark indefinitely so hopefully it hurts them. I went to look on there this morning and their server response is worse than Lemmy atm so I dunno what’s going on.
Loading full web pages takes more server processing power than API access.
This is browser and RIF just seems weird because blackout should mean less user load.
A lot of subs did that , im sure reddit worked do make it finite .
There are, apparently, 2.8 million subreddits. About 8,000 are dark, meaning that’s just over one quarter of one percent of subreddits. Even with some of the largest subs participating, I wouldn’t be surprised if there is no massive dip in traffic. There are enough subs still open with enough mass appeal that most people will just look at some other subs for a few days. And I’ll be honest, even though I’ve made an account both here and on kbin, I know I’ll still use old.reddit (with RES and an adblocker at least) most of the time, simply because I doubt any of the subs I actively look at will do any meaningful migration that would lead to a similar level of discussion.
Hmm, 2.8 million subreddits, but how many are ghost towns? I wonder if anyone has a measurement in terms of monthly active users or something along those lines.
Of all the subs I was subscribed to, there were I want to say only about 10 that didn’t take part in the blackout. I unsubscribed to all of them. I am now subscribed to only subs that either took part in the blackout, or in one case one that opted to remain public (due to the nature of its contents) but is blocking all submissions for the next couple days.
For me, once RIF stops working, reddit will be dead to me. I will never install their official app, and 99% of the time I’m on reddit is on mobile. I have no doubt that old reddits days are numbered as well and that was the remaining 1%.
Not for long you won’t. RES and old.reddit are on the chopping block too.
IDK, he said in the AMA that old reddit isn’t going anywhere, and even if he’s lying I don’t think he would immediately do a 180 and kill it. The way I see it, it will probably be around for the foreseeable future.
He was just bullshitting about API changes in April, he’s absolutely lying about old.
Well if that ends up being the case, then I’ll cross that bridge when I get to it.
Reading comment above yours i dont think the 2.8million is correct and it also states that there are only 100,000 subreddits with over 125 subscribers and only 34,000 with more tham 1000 subs. Of the roughly 8000 subreddits that went dark there are someof the biggests subscriber counts woth some having millions of subscribers. I think based on that that its actually quite a hefty number.
It’s also worth noting that many of those massive subs, especially the default subs, have lots of overlap in subscribers. r/funny with 50 million and r/aww with 30 million does not necessarily equal 80 million people because there are millions, probably even tens of millions, of people who are subbed to both.
Wait WHAT.
Yeah, it’s kinda crazy. I support the blackout but deep down I know nothing of substance will come of it. Their dip in traffic is probably not much worse than when a major city loses power.
I wouldn’t say nothing. I found this site.
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Why would anyone even want the job as a moderator on a dying site that’s going to be filled with trolls and spam? Heck, you’d be better-off just getting a job at McDonalds. At least that pays.
Indeed - I think they’ll manage to find mods but the quality is certainly going to leave something to be desired.
I agree that coming on as a mod would be undesirable in this climate, but I do think a lot of us as part of the protest have a bit of a blind spot. Reddit may be hurt from this, and they may slowly start losing users, especially if Lemmy or another good alternative start taking off, but let’s be a little realistic here. Lemmy has a total user base of around 112,000 people as of yesterday, though I’m sure a fair few of these accounts are the same person (I have 3 Lemmy accounts on three instances). Reddit has over 50 million daily users. (Lemmy’s active monthly user count is around 15,000 right now). Reddit’s monthly user count is 1.6 BILLION. If Reddit is ‘dying’, Lemmy has been dead and buried. (Yes, I know one is growing and one is shrinking this week, but it’s a little naive to think that will definitely stay that way.)
Could Reddit eventually die and an alternative rise in its place? Certainly, but it’s going to be a couple years off.
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There are absolutely not 2.8 million active subreddits. I just spent like an hour trying to find data on this. Nobody cites their sources. I used a dump of subreddit statistics from 2018, when there were just over a million subreddits. (Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/ListOfSubreddits/comments/8gzmmv/i_created_a_better_csv_textspreadsheet_list_of/)
There were ~34,000 subreddits with more than a 1000 subscribers. And 100,000 subreddits with more than 125 subscribers.
Looking at https://subredditstats.com/ the top 5000 subreddits make up about 30% (based on an estimated 840,000 posts a day by some reddit user on a subreddit that’s currently dark so I can’t give a good link) of the daily posts and surely far more than 30% of the daily traffic.
This makes sense to me. I was wondering how many were active, engaged communities and how many were shells or ghost towns.
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There are 3.1 million subreddits.
That 8838 is the number of subs who pledged to protest in some capacity. A lot of them are big subreddits, but still. It’s not like they’ve cut off access to 90% of the site like some people think.
Yeah but how many of those millions are ghost towns?, since a lot of the biggest subs are participating I’m more curious about how reddit will handle it, replacing the mods in every one of them? That’s a lot of man power, I hope whoever they put in charge isn’t an idiot that does it for free, and what’s more funny is that the best mod tools rely on the API and 3rd party access.
At the very least I expect a decline in quality content and spam, trolls, bots etc.
My bet? AI.
If they have any kind of archive of past mod decisions then they can just dump all that into a neural net. And then they get to look all sexy in their upcoming IPO because they are using ⭐️⭐️⭐️ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE⭐️⭐️⭐️ like all the ⭐️⭐️⭐️SEXIEST⭐️⭐️⭐️ companies!!!1! No more of those annoying unpaid volunteers to get uppity any more!
I, for one, do not welcome our new AI moderation overlords, and will probably be done with Reddit if this happens. But I just know someone there has to be pushing for this.
It would take a considerable while to train an in-house LLM AI for moderation purposes, and even if it was trained honestly it would at least be consistent whereas you can get away with breaking mod rules as long as your meme made them chuckle, etc.
Who cares, AI will become a part of Lemmy too and I’m just done with reddit anyways.
Oh I’m not saying these putative AI mods would be any better than existing Reddit mods. They’d probably be even more arbitrary and capricious and unappealable, and I sure don’t expect them to be anywhere near fully-trained. But they’d be owned by Reddit, who would now be ⭐️⭐️⭐️AN AI COMPANY⭐️⭐️⭐️, which is the replacement for “the blockchain” as a thing you vaguely mention your company using if you want rich, dumb investors to wet their pants and throw tons of money at you.
Over half my feed went dark. I was only getting posts from 4-5 subreddits, mostly news. That’s a big impact on a user.
Losing RIF is what got me looking elsewhere.
Yeah, but those subs contain the majority of redditor interaction. ~70k people on a sub is enough to put it into the top 5%. The top 1% subs are very likely responsible for 50%+ of all reddit posts. Losing just a handful of them is a big deal.
Unfortunately in a few hours most of those subreddits will open back up and it’ll be business as normal. The ones that don’t open will be transferred over to new moderators and they’ll resume normal operation too.
Realistically, for the most part, not much will change for Reddit. A lot has changed for me and you, though. I’ve diversified my entertainment and don’t intend to lurk the same website for hours a day. I like Lemmy, and I like the people here but Reddit is too old and too encompassing to never visit it again.
Piggy backing off this to remind people that after multiple reports of a child porn seller on reddit were either ignored or claimed to not to violate TOS, spez personally banned me for harassment after I asked him to intervene.
The CP seller was still active MONTHS later.
I think Reddit will have a somewhat significant loss in users but it’ll endure, at least for the time being. Social media sites die slower now. But I’m happy I found alternatives because I just can’t see myself using their official app
As of today, he’s saying “the blackout will pass.” Doesn’t sound he cares at all, so I’m here now. Hello, new friend!
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It’s not 8838 total, I’m pretty sure it’s the list of subs that said they’ll participate
somebody else pointed this out, but it’s honestly bizarre he’s going in on the “we aren’t making any money” ploy in preparation for the ipo
what’s the pitch to the investors? “please by shares in this unprofitable company, in the hope that we can become profitable by pissing off our userbase”?
Guess I’m sticking with Lemmy, then.
This is the way
This is the way
Honestly fuck that guy. I’m glad that I don’t need to continue supporting this person.
Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake.
— Napoleon Bonaparte
Cool beans. Thanks spez, for introducing me to lemmy.
Been for for 10 minutes. Really like it so far. Really gives me the vibe of the early 2000s internet (in a good way)
This right here.
Well Steve, it’s not profitable for me to be a moderator for free either. Feel free to let me know how profitable you think you’ll be after hiring enough staff to replace all the mods that’ll be leaving.
RIP Reddit! This was all I needed to see to delete my reddit shortcuts from my phone and computer. let’s gooooo lemmy!
Same. Dude is acting like a spoiled brat digging his heels in when everyone is telling him he’s making a huge mistake. It would be like the captain of the Titanic seeing the iceberg and thinking “It’ll move”.
I think for me it was just the one last thing that pushed me over the edge. The content was starting to get meh and the bots were 👎
Like I said a few other places, even if Lemmy only grows to be 1% of the size, I honestly like the small community vibe of it more than Reddit. More direct interactions.
I’m hesitant to remove my Reddit bookmark. Too many good memories.
Might just burry it deep in my bookmarks
same here, the only reason I haven’t completely deleted my reddit account is because I still wanna sell some stuff there. Other than that, I’m not planning on using it anymore
Since I don’t see a link to it in the discussion, here’s an internal email from yesterday that has made its way to the Verge: https://www.theverge.com/2023/6/13/23759559/reddit-internal-memo-api-pricing-changes-steve-huffman
I won’t argue against the need for reddit to be profitable, they’re a business after all, BUT, all respectable software that is paid has different tiers of pricing, usually ranging from single-user to corporate-deployment.
spez is complaining everywhere that they can’t allow corporate-level scraping of data to train AI for free, and that’s fair, but why don’t they differentiate “small” devs developing apps for users from “corporations” training AI?
I find it really hard to believe it’s too difficult for them, other paid software/platforms do it all the time.
The only logical explanation to me is they don’t want to, they just want to kill apps no matter what, that’s why the unreasonable prices for everyone, they’re just using the “no profitable” excuse to do that without a worse backslash than they’re getting already, tho they’re being quite stupid about it.
