/u/mindseal and I recently began discussing intention and manifestation and the “mechanism” behind it. We’ve moved our conversation to this thread so that others can hopefully share their thoughts and experiences.
“Intention and Manifestation”
Originally posted by u/syncretik on 2019-07-12 19:53:59 (cc8u49).
Reality is a mirror curved back on itself. That which is perceived is a reflection of itself. By gazing upon something, one becomes that thing. The self is experienced by experiencing the world.
‘Intention’, which is subjective judgment of a base perception, and becomes ‘self’ (as a belief), is ‘mechanistically’ reflected back into the external, and reexperienced as ‘manifestation’
Cheers.
Originally commented by u/CreateCoincidence on 2019-07-13 15:04:21 (etnop0l)
In some sense there is no mechanism to will/intent. Mechanisms appear to matter because we have something we could call “stages” of intent. So for example, I intend to be in a certain city. That intent forms the context for further intentionality. Then once I am in that city, I can intend to be in a certain building. That’s another stage. Once I am in that building, that becomes a further context for a more refined intentionality inside that building.
In real terms it’s way more complex, because we start with some ground-level assumptions about reality. Those assumptions form the most basic context. That context is very abstract and we’ll need to get to some deeper context to get to something concrete. Once we’re dealing with some concrete things, we tend to think of mechanisms, because things often work like machines. So when we operate on things, we agree that “things are things”, which is to say, we generally hold things as inviolable in meaning, so a rock is not also a butterfly, but is only a rock. Because a rock is held to only be a rock, it can be used as a machine with the simple and predictable functionality of a rock.
So this machine-like functionality is relevant because we’re creating and mentally holding a layer of experience which resembles machinery.
So for example, look at the human body. Let’s suppose you want to move your body forward. You have to move your left leg, then your right leg, then your left and so on. That’s the mechanism of movement for a human body. But why does this mechanism exist? It’s because you have a restricted pattern of a body, and you’re the one who has restricted it that way. Because you do not forsake the restricting intent, your movement intent has to honor your restricting intent. Your body-restricting intent is the context within which you produce body movement intents.
But in general will is abstract. For example, do you really have to move your legs to move the body? No, you don’t. You can teleport or hover or whatever. But normally you wouldn’t allow yourself the luxury of that. :) It would seem crazy if you did that.
So suppose I want to make some clouds in the sky. Do I have to go through some steps? Is there a mechanism? No, there isn’t. That’s because I don’t have to honor any restrictions. If I am meddling in the weather, I am already breaking the “normal” rules. So once I am OK with breaking the rules, I am also stepping beyond all the mechanisms.
All this is best understood via lucid dreaming. If you get good at lucid dreaming you can try doing magick in a lucid dream and it becomes obvious. You just directly will whatever you want and you don’t have to go through any steps. But if you have a mental hangup, you may have to go through a step.
So for example, if I want to spawn a character, I could just spawn one. But if seeing something gradually or suddenly materialize is “too much” for my mind, I can imagine the new dream character as “already there” and then turn around to face them. So that’s 2 steps, which is a kind of “mechanism.” But this “mechanism” only exists so long as I have a hangup that prevents me from materializing character right under my nose.
Pinging /u/syncretik
Originally commented by u/mindseal on 2019-07-13 17:57:36 (etnxxj7)
Yes in this context I agree. It’s ‘shape-shifting’ and deciding something is as you will it to be rather than setting up a mechanism which acts as a barrier. I still feel there needs to be a letting go of the beliefs which impede this direct path of WILL --> MANIFESTATION. You could say the letting go happens automatically because you override it by simply deciding that something is.
Also, there needs to be an understanding of what will/intent really is. It’s not a yearning or a hopeful wish. It’s more like a knowingness that a thing exists or is happening. So you can’t will something to happen if you just entertain the idea in your thoughts, it needs commitment and an accountability of your subconscious desires (which can be clouded or even “staged” as you say, by having a physicalist mindset). One of my favourite films is Stalker. If you don’t want spoilers go watch it before you continue reading.
In this film, there is a room inside a dangerous/forbidden zone which only a “stalker” can guide you through, and when you walk into this room your deepest desires manifest into reality. But when the people being guided reach the room, they change their minds and decide not go in because they’re afraid that their deepest desires might be nefarious and create unwanted circumstances, as some had experienced previously. This example shows how a lack of accountability can develop unconscious commitments that can create hangups. So being aware of this and taking responsiblity for your desires is one aspect.
The other aspect is what I mentioned at the start, which is getting accustomed to the subtlety of intending without contradicting beliefs. “I will X to be”…
Originally commented by u/syncretik on 2019-07-13 18:20:53 (etnz3um)
Yes in this context I agree. It’s ‘shape-shifting’ and deciding something is as you will it to be rather than setting up a mechanism which acts as a barrier. I still feel there needs to be a letting go of the beliefs which impede this direct path of WILL --> MANIFESTATION. You could say the letting go happens automatically because you override it by simply deciding that something is.
I agree. It’s also gradual. As you rely on unconventional intentionality, it becomes easier and it gets normalized gradually.
Also the corollary to there not being a mechanism for intent is that also, any mechanism can serve as the mechanism. So if you want to establish a mechanism, you can make it anything. As long as you use it consistently, it will become the mechanism for you in time.
In this film, there is a room inside a dangerous/forbidden zone which only a “stalker” can guide you through, and when you walk into this room your deepest desires manifest into reality. But when the people being guided reach the room, they change their minds and decide not go in because they’re afraid that their deepest desires might be nefarious and create unwanted circumstances, as some had experienced previously. This example shows how a lack of accountability can develop unconscious commitments that can create hangups. So being aware of this and taking responsiblity for your desires is one aspect.
I agree.
So if this is what you mean by “a mechanism,” then I agree. Although to my mind coming to terms with one’s own desires is not by itself, a mechanical process.
The other aspect is what I mentioned at the start, which is getting accustomed to the subtlety of intending without contradicting beliefs. “I will X to be”…
I agree.
So yes, if you can regard these requirements you’ve listed as “the steps” then I suppose you can call this “the mechanism.”
Originally commented by u/mindseal on 2019-07-13 23:11:22 (etocogc)
I agree. It’s also gradual. As you rely on unconventional intentionality, it becomes easier and it gets normalized gradually.
I think many of us would like to reduce the gradualness to like a day or two :)
Also the corollary to there not being a mechanism for intent is that also, any mechanism can serve as the mechanism. So if you want to establish a mechanism, you can make it anything. As long as you use it consistently, it will become the mechanism for you in time.
Agreed
So if this is what you mean by “a mechanism,” then I agree. Although to my mind coming to terms with one’s own desires is not by itself, a mechanical process.
While we’re on this topic then, “coming to terms with one’s own desires” feels like a realization. I haven’t experienced a time when I chose what I want to desire. What’s your take on that? Would you say these are othered desires that are seeping through?
Originally commented by u/syncretik on 2019-07-13 23:55:22 (etofimi)
I haven’t experienced a time when I chose what I want to desire. What’s your take on that? Would you say these are othered desires that are seeping through?
I examine my own desires. From that, it is often evident what else I could desire instead. Once I am aware of more than one option, then I have a choice. If I don’t realize there is a different option, then I have an unconscious desire.
But optionality is a spectrum: from no options, to one other option, to 2, to 3, to infinity. The more options I can see, the more aware I am of my choice. So seeing just 2 options is often a kind of rudimentary awareness which is not very aware, but it’s better than seeing only 1 option.
I especially have a very strong incentive to examine my desires if something is stuck or is working in a painful/clumsy/grindy way.
So a very basic example would be something like, “I want to find work.” That’s the starting point for contemplation.
Then:
“Where did I get this idea that I want to find work?”
“My mom and dad worked, so I was familiar with the concept since birth.”
“Why do I want it?”
“It’s how I can get money.”
“Why do I want money?”
“I’ll trade it for clothing, food, shelter, entertainment.”
“Why do I need clothing?”
“I get cold, hot, wet.”
“Is cold bad?”
“I experience it as bad, but maybe if I train, it won’t be as bad.”
“I trade money for medicine.”
“What if I learn mind healing?”
“I trade money for things which make me look authoritative, like a suit, clean shave, cologne, etc.”
“Is authority anchored in appearances or is there something deeper?”
“I trade money for entertainment.”
“How can I entertain myself without the purchased tools?”
“I need money to buy people out, otherwise they lay claims to land and block my way.”
“Can I undermine or restructure the land claims in some other ways?”
“What is work?”
“Work is when I go toward my purpose even despite difficulty.”
“Then everything is work.”
“Yes, it is.”
“I need to distinguish work from working for hire.”
“What is discipline?”
“I used to think it’s what others demand of me. But now I know it’s what I demand of myself. In fact when I resist other people’s demands, that requires discipline.”
Etc. etc. etc.
So after a thorough investigation into the nature of work, my desire for work is transformed. I see many ways I can work. Not just one. I am less beholden to whatever mom/pop thought was “work.” I am more able to do my own thing and recognize it as work. So I do what I do without guilt, and because I don’t have guilt, I cannot be cornered by a conservative, not even in principle, since I’ve undermined the emotional guilt button they would need to push in a typical conversation.
So what opens up options is investigation of options.
So for example, say long ago I thought work meant to build houses. Let’s say I don’t think that anymore, but in my mind I believe there are many people who still believe that. There’s your othered desire. In this case it’s my own old desire which was embraced by others. I’ve moved on, they haven’t. That’s just one example.
Another example is if I hold “the other” to be free-willed, to be capable of independently producing desires, then whatever novel desires they come up with, is this othered desire. Then if I make it my duty to serve this othered desire, I am living a life of trying to make my subconscious happy.
However, subconscious mind cannot be made happy if it’s also allowed to be free. :) It’s fickle when allowed freedom. So even if the subconscious is temporarily happy, it soon grows unhappy and makes new demands. Plus, when many people are granted unregulated and complete freedom, they often become at odds with one another, and I then end up getting stuck in the fights and disputations I don’t want and may see as irrelevant.
So the way to be happy is to place one’s own conscious mind above one’s own unconscious. Which is the opposite of what the society teacher: “serve society!” Which means you have to serve your own subconscious while also not regulating it any. What is a slave? A slave is basically a servant of one’s own subconscious mind.
So serving oneself while also minding societal happiness, is the best way. I have to mind, because societal appearances are included in my overall state of mind, so my happiness cannot ignore societal happiness. At the same time, I cannot be a slave and I cannot merely “serve” the subconscious, but on the contrary, I have to make my subconscious mind serve my conscious mind.
Originally commented by u/mindseal on 2019-07-14 12:25:09 (etq2wlf)
Well said and I can agree to all of that. This reminds me of something that’s been discussed on here and other subs previously, which is, reality doesn’t seem to have depth. It arises from awareness or the mind, but it is devoid of time or “space”, and it can change completely in an instant. I used to think that it has a depth that’s stored within a subconscious mind of some sort which acts as a blueprint, but even that is a concept of the mind and I allow it to be that way because that’s what I believe.
Reality simply arises and transforms according to will…on the “surface”.
So desire is something that exists as part of the human reality. “I am a human in this thing called a physical world which has X and Y cause and effect, and this human self desires more ideas to manifest into this physical world in a certain way etc…”
Originally commented by u/syncretik on 2019-07-14 16:45:13 (etqio87)
Well said and I can agree to all of that. This reminds me of something that’s been discussed on here and other subs previously, which is, reality doesn’t seem to have depth. It arises from awareness or the mind, but it is devoid of time or “space”, and it can change completely in an instant. I used to think that it has a depth that’s stored within a subconscious mind of some sort which acts as a blueprint, but even that is a concept of the mind and I allow it to be that way because that’s what I believe.
I think the relative reality has momentum, which is like your concept of depth. However, the momentum that it has depends on your overall (conscious, subconscious and unconscious) volitional state and therefore is tunable. But people never think of tuning something like that since they think the relative reality exists independently as part of the seemingly independent environment “out there.” (never mind that people often take the relative reality as ultimate, which is another mistake)
I don’t neglect the manifestational momentum. Sometimes I actually want some patterns to gain momentum because I don’t plan on micro-adjusting them every hour, so I want them to stay steady as a kind of “background.” But sometimes some of the steady features get outdated and need to be refreshed, and at that time their steadiness gets in the way of tuning them, so sometimes I have to downregulate some types of momentum to make some patterns more susceptible to quick tuning.
So desire is something that exists as part of the human reality. “I am a human in this thing called a physical world which has X and Y cause and effect, and this human self desires more ideas to manifest into this physical world in a certain way etc…”
I don’t believe that we are humans ultimately. Ultimately I am beyond species. I have the karma of a human, which is to say, my volitional makeup and my manifestational momentum support a human realm right now. But I am not permanently welded to this kind of state for all time. So deep down I am mind, and I ultimately can act as anything inside anything (so a human in a human realm, or a human in a dragon realm, or a dragon in a human realm, or a dragon in a dragon realm and so on ad infinitum).
Originally commented by u/mindseal on 2019-07-15 02:51:51 (etrkjrc)
I don’t neglect the manifestational momentum. Sometimes I actually want some patterns to gain momentum because I don’t plan on micro-adjusting them every hour, so I want them to stay steady as a kind of “background.” But sometimes some of the steady features get outdated and need to be refreshed, and at that time their steadiness gets in the way of tuning them, so sometimes I have to downregulate some types of momentum to make some patterns more susceptible to quick tuning.
I take this as a sort of elaboration on your post regarding the context and content of experience. Such that, as the ultimate builder of the stage not only are you reserving the right to what content appears on your stage, but also the right to further refine your stage in general. I feel that this could be a subtlety missed in the initial post. I feel it also heavily relates to your post about maintaining the mindset of a deity in that if something no longer serves you: cut it off.
I don’t believe that we are humans ultimately. Ultimately I am beyond species.
I agree with this. When one cultivates a mentality that is beyond that of “I am this human here and this experience is happening to me.” the context of experience broadens to an unimaginable degree from the perspective just outlined. “Well if I am not only a human, to what extent am I?” This doesn’t eliminate the human you may have imagined yourself to be from the experience, quite the contrary. It flips perspective to I am the experience happening to this human. Even that can be seen as a limited perspective because you can continue expanding from there to “I am the experience happening to all humans” all the way out to “I am.”
What’s beyond the “I am” experience can be described as “I become” and at that point “I” can become limitless. Then again that seems a bit of a stretch. Almost like wiping the slate clean. As you’ve mentioned:
so sometimes I have to downregulate some types of momentum to make some patterns more susceptible to quick tuning.
This quick tuning can be more desirable than starting from scratch. So in terms of context versus content this was hard to see exactly how to move one to the other. But with the idea of momentum it’s much easier to adjust things because they aren’t being expressed as one or the other, rather they are expressed as varying degrees of the same thing.
Originally commented by u/Scew on 2019-07-18 00:14:31 (eu1q9gu)
I think the relative reality has momentum, which is like your concept of depth. However, the momentum that it has depends on your overall (conscious, subconscious and unconscious) volitional state and therefore is tunable.
Yes, I would say the momentum is only as influential or as strong as you make it. You can tune it by simply deciding rather than, say, going through a complex technique or magick ritual etc…Techniques and rituals are very helpful especially when someone is still new to this stuff, but once you develop an understanding and intuition of the maleability of reality you can tune it more readily i.e. by just deciding. This is something I’m currently playing with.
I don’t believe that we are humans ultimately. Ultimately I am beyond species. I have the karma of a human, which is to say, my volitional makeup and my manifestational momentum support a human realm right now. But I am not permanently welded to this kind of state for all time. So deep down I am mind, and I ultimately can act as anything inside anything (so a human in a human realm, or a human in a dragon realm, or a dragon in a human realm, or a dragon in a dragon realm and so on ad infinitum).
I’m with you on that. What I was also getting at is that “desire” as you experience it in the context of being a human is not the same thing as volition, it’s rather an experience. Volition is the act of deciding. I feel I need to distinguish these two things because “desire” is aim without volition and is more akin to yearning/craving. This is also my interpretation of Buddhism when it says desire is the cause of suffering. You could even say, you desire to the extent that you forget your volitional leverage.
Originally commented by u/syncretik on 2019-07-15 18:05:28 (ettg1d6)
Instant manifestation is something that I have been meddling with for quite a while, yet i have no success in it. I feel like my mind believes I have no limitations yet, I am unable to spawn anything instantly or shapeshift anything infront of me instantly, There always seems to be a delay of good events coming. I’m able to spawn that yet again it could be because of my LOA paradigm belief system. Yet I tried to trump it and play with intent/will. Yet i am unable to manage any which frustrates me. I am a god yet i am unable to change things instantly infront of me, I feel the powerless state and then I try to pep talk myself saying it’s alright I did this for a reason it’s not so bad after all. Yet that lurking desire crave for unlimited power exists deep within me.
I’m aware this is all unlimited imagination/potential. Yet I am unable to imagine anything instantly. The lack of mind flexibility that i feel like, I don’t have is strange. I’m pretty sure I’ve contemplated more than enough yet I’m stuck in that bottleneck of no progress when it comes to instant manifestations.
Have you ever felt in that boat of it? What have you tried to overcome it? I’m aware we all find different answers to our own unique mind streams, Would like some pointers since my own inner being isn’t even fond of me apparently.
Originally commented by u/therewasguy on 2019-07-15 15:50:43 (ett9seo)
I’m on mobile at the moment, so please forgive my brevity, but: I suggest you look more at the fingertrap you’re in. Based on this post, I don’t think the way forward for you is to figure out how to tug perfectly forward on the trap. In a sense, it only strengthens the grip of the thing.
The “I know it but don’t feel it” or “Intellectually but not viscerally” or “In theory but not in practice” trap is one of the most widespread, easy-to-fall-into mental holes in occult, magical, and mystical practices of all varieties. I hear of it constantly.
I’d look closer at that trap than I would at getting some specific set of instructions for a magical assertion of will. The latter will not even make sense as an obstacle as you understand it to be now, once you address that more fundamental misunderstanding.
Originally commented by u/Utthana on 2019-07-18 18:53:06 (eu45ury)
/u/therewasguy In the spirit of this thread, I’m going to reply to your DM publicly here. If you’d rather move things to a private chat, just let me know.
Syncretik is absolutely right that frequencies don’t have to matter if you don’t want them to. A principle of subjective idealism, the philosophy upon which the whole sub is built, is that reality is subjective - that your mind (your knowledge, experiences, and will), yours alone, is fundamental for you. Everything within it, and that very much includes every spiritual teaching you’ve ever read about anywhere, is subject to you, and not apart from you in any way. The path you take is your path to forge.
It can be easier sometimes to allow power to (appear to) exist outside of your control and then “borrow” it, e.g. it’s easier for me to just say that chickens hatch eggs regardless of my consent or mindful involvement and then to get my eggs from chickens than it is for me to manifest my own eggs from nothingness, deliberately exempting chickens from the equation. The latter is possible, but vastly inconvenient in comparison for me right now. In other circumstances it would be more convenient, but for now, it’s not. Spiritual teachings are the same. You can accept ones you’ve already “othered” out in the world and follow them and make them work, or you can make your own. Both routes have pros and cons. But importantly, either way, you’re the one making the decision.
To quote an old song, “If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.”
So it’s important to remember when you’re seeking wisdom from other people - like you are asking questions on this sub - that you’re really just seeking something that you feel comfortable empowering. You’re looking for something that you can believe in fully enough that you’ll make it real - not something which is already real, regardless of what you do, that you can just utilize. Nothing is already real without you. You are the music-maker.
And that’s right at the heart of the fingertrap: waiting for something that will work inherently regardless of whether you believe in it/empower it, because it’s already inherently powerful. You can do that with eggs no problem, since eggs fit into this worldview you’ve forged around you very neatly. But since you’re explicitly and specifically trying to do something which violates that worldview - it seems like your goal here is basically “perform an action which violates at least one rule that I’ve set up against actions” - you’ll obviously never find something out in the world that will do that. No piece of advice can hand that to you. There is no magic spell that will work no matter who casts it or when or why. And literally anything and everything can be a magic spell if the person casting it believes in and empowers it thusly.
Originally commented by u/Utthana on 2019-07-19 16:43:17 (eu75eub)
As mindseal put it in our discussion “sometimes you may (optionally) want to deliberately limit your ability to decide if you notice you tend to decide haphazardly and carelessly at times (sometimes it only takes one bad decision to ruin something important), you may want to put a conceptual magickal “wall” between decisions and emanation so that only especially empowered decisions are allowed to affect something more than the body and the personal conscious mind.”
I have had a few instant manifestations when I felt completely comfortable and sure about what I wanted without any doubts or hesitations.
In the context of a ‘human in a physical world’ as it exists at this time, stability is important for you otherwise life would appear to be chaotic. So instant manifestation doesn’t occur in your reality because you might find it unsettling. You have to commit to and be comfortable with the idea that instant manifestation is possible and doesn’t have to abide by the laws of science or the rules of society.
For example if you want to manifest money you will have all sorts of qualms and beliefs about money, such as how it will come about and from where, the amount of work you will have to do to earn it, how long it takes to get paid and so on. This is the knowledge you’re conscious of and comfortable with in regards to money and so that’s the way you have to go about manifesting it. Whereas finding a big wad of cash at your door is a much more novel and unsettling idea, and it’s definitely not in alignment with your beliefs.
Doubts and beliefs are the hindrances, so firstly you let go of the hindering beliefs, then you decide or will what the new reality is.
Originally commented by u/syncretik on 2019-07-16 21:38:49 (etwmf4r)
“sometimes you may (optionally) want to deliberately limit your ability to decide if you notice you tend to decide haphazardly and carelessly at times (sometimes it only takes one bad decision to ruin something important), you may want to put a conceptual magickal “wall” between decisions and emanation so that only especially empowered decisions are allowed to affect something more than the body and the personal conscious mind.”
Why not just add an undo intent or reverse time magik? That would seem more interesting at times. Replay a certain quick minute scenario may be interesting. Or even days which may be exhausting in my opinion.
Surely that would be possible in our unlimited potential.
I find that more optimal, even though time is technically an illusion from my sense it’s always a NOW being imagined moment from my understanding.
Originally commented by u/therewasguy on 2019-07-18 19:54:55 (eu48ct3)
Why not just add an undo intent or reverse time magik? That would seem more interesting at times. Replay a certain quick minute scenario may be interesting. Or even days which may be exhausting in my opinion.
Surely that would be possible in our unlimited potential
Sure but right now you’re in the momentum of not easily reversing time. If it’s a priority for you then you can decide that into your physical reality. You’ll also need to build the momentum of leverage that you have over reality so it doesn’t feel like an impossible feat.
Originally commented by u/syncretik on 2019-07-18 20:42:21 (eu4afr8)
Does frequency/vibration (example feeling good) even matter when manifesting or is it just pure will?
Or is my belief system not optimal as in thinking that If i feel good, things are working out for me in my alignment hence it goes my way.
Thank you sync.
Originally commented by u/therewasguy on 2019-07-17 07:24:44 (ety3110)
Does frequency/vibration (example feeling good) even matter when manifesting or is it just pure will?
Your will overrides everything. If you believe that emotions/frequency/vibrations are important then you will be relying on those things and they will become relevant, but they don’t have to be.
It will make more sense when you understand what it means to decide instead of hope and wait. When you decide to get a glass of water you don’t rely on emotions or vibrations, you simply get up and get a glass of water. You know that water is already there and you only have to reach for it.
“Deciding” and “knowing” are learned habits of confidence which you can develop over time, little by little like learning a musical instrument or any other skill.
Originally commented by u/syncretik on 2019-07-18 18:15:14 (eu44b9z)