I apologize in advance if posts like this are not welcome here.
I have a friend circle of 6 guys including me. Before some of us got jobs, we used to play games everyday, hang out together if we are in town. Everyone was chill, enjoyed games more and mostly respected each other to some degree.
After getting jobs we still made time to play and hang out, but not as frequently. I only get time to play games with them on the weekends as my job is in a different time zone. But I still call or text them nearly everyday. Some of them play every single day (kind of addicted to GTA online and valorant for some reason).
But in the last couple of months I have noticed a shift in their behavior. Talking behind each others backs and always getting offended for the silliest of things. This is especially true for those who continued to mindlessly play every single day (they work on the same startup company as well).
I always knew that there was one guy among us who would unnecessarily run his mouth. But I always thought of it as his way of having fun. Mybe it was his way of feeling included. Idk. So I never took any of his ramblings to heart. But everything hits differently now, in a bad way. Every conversation feels like I’m walking on eggshells. Now the others are also starting to become like him.
It’s not just me who thought this way. Another guy who have been besties for a long time with the blabbermouth guy personally called me and told that the whole group feels like it’s infected by something and shared thoughts similar to mine.
I want to call it out, but i’m not sure how to do that in a thoughtful way. I just want them to reflect on themselves, not that I have any right to say that. I’m not afraid of offending them as it’s almost impossible to say anything meaningful without doing so.
Thank you for reading. I hope you have a wonderful day.
Sounds like your circle is growing apart. It happens. In this particular case, some personalities have grown enough to not be compatible with some of the others.
I’m not good at situations like these, so I don’t really have a solution for you, other than accepting the fact that your circle of six will soon no longer be six. Stick to the ones who are still reasonable, and with time the toxic ones will either remain so among themselves or will push away the part of the group that is more in line with how you’re perceiving the social dynamic.
You are right. I always knew growing apart would be something I’ll have to deal with. It sucks that I’ll lose some people in the process. That’s life I guess.
Take 1: If I understand correctly, several of them work for the same startup. Frankly, those places are KNOWN to be toxic hellholes because they tend to be run by adulation-seeking narcissists from an upper middle class (entitled) background. Shit rolls downhill and all and your friends may just be picking it up subconsciously and don’t have the ability to really manage the emotions that this is causing. In a phrase: you might end up feeling sorry for them.
Take 2: Are you recently out of high school or recently out of college? Few people really remain friends after this because they get pulled into different directions and their lives change. This causes things to fall apart, but it is nobody’s fault.
Take 3: These people have always been toxic. You didn’t notice it before or didn’t think it was a big deal. Now you notice it and think it is a big deal.
-
2 of the guys work for the same startup. One of them is the main ‘problem guy’. This guy quickly embodies the traits of the crowd he spends the most time with. So It’s possible that take 1 is the case.
-
All of us are out of college. We are not too far apart, so we are able to meet up easily if we want to (for now).
On a different note- The start of this friend cricle was centered around gaming. I think some people might have different rules (subconciously) for deciding if a person belongs to a certain group. Maybe… just maybe the fact that I’m not able to play games with them regularly made him (the problem guy) subconsciously think that I’m not part of the group anymore. Especially since I do not adhere to the core values (gaming everyday). It’s possible that has caused a seperation in the group. I think I’m overthinking this. So I’ll leave it at that.
- Take 3 seems like the most possible. I had noticed some signs way back. Now it is way more fleshed out.
Now that I look at it, the ‘toxic’ nature may be a sum of all of the above mentioned takes.
-
Nearly every “startup” I’ve been at was pretty toxic.
From the CEO who bragged about working 100+ hours, to the brown nosers who tried to impressed the company by sniping coworkers and creating cliques.
I’m glad you said “nearly”, because indeed I worked only in one startup and it wasn’t toxic, maybe because we we just marginally successful and there were like 10–15 people at most, half of them being the same ones during the whole lifetime of about three years our startup existed. Also we were as far away from the Silicon Valley as it can get, so that may also be a factor
far away from Silicon Valley
That helps a lot. If the CEO mixes in those circles, the only way for the CEO to survive (i.e. be taken seriously by their CEO peers) is to bump their salary significantly and develop some kind of rallying ethos to separate them from other startups. It turns into a heavy peacocking game where the only way to survive is to flex the hardest.
Startup CEO’s can very quickly divorce themselves from their worker peers just by trying to survive in the SV CEO peer circle.
I’ve been at a handful now and so far they’ve all been great places to work, though a little unstable.
I am at one and it’s incredibly toxic. I got diagnosed with generalized anxiety after a year here and I regularly have mood swings. But the money is good and I work from home, so I’ve got that going for me.
Glad you got diagnosed. There’s a ton of bad management in startups. Especially stay away from managers that grew up in toxic shops.
I’ve always been a strong employee. People get good at pushing buttons. Spent more time in a divorce therapy talking about a manager than the personal issues.
Realized for every boundary problem I had, there were n alienated people on my team that really got hurt hard. Sr. Management fixed the issue
Be good at taking breaks. Be good at looking for new roles before you need them.
Often; the money side that seems big to employees is new house rich. If you aren’t happy, it’s not worth it.
Thanks friend, some wise words there.
The main toxic boss got ‘laid off’ shortly after I brought up the issues with management, so things have improved since then. And Zoloft made me realize I had an underlying issue with a lot of things, so I guess it was the push I needed.
I’ve done one. Not worth it in my opinion.
Be honest and open about it. Like next time he does it just say like that it’s not cool. If people see the problem guy getting called out then they’ll reflect on themselves.
If people see the problem guy getting called out then they’ll reflect on themselves.
Or they won’t and at least you will know it is time to move on,
… and??
And what?
Hoping people will change is a fools game. If a group of people have turned into people you don’t want to be around anymore and you have expressed the issues to them and they do not see the problem or did not attempt to change.
Cut you losses.
Find people whose values and outlook you do agree with and invest time creating new friendships and connections.
I think they were making a joke on your last comma there lol.
\0/
There isn’t any easy way to approach this. I have a little* experience with this.
You’re going to have to talk to the whole group. Whether it’s one on one, the entire group, or a smaller group with the offending party (or parties) excluded. Then as a group you are going to have to deal with the individual(s) with the solution.
Solutions can be ejecting the problem person(s) from the group, breaking up of the group, you leaving the group and having to establish a new group of friends and keeping contact with a couple of these people (there are probably more solutions but these are some examples).
What you CAN’T do is sweep it under the rug as it will make the group more toxic and harder to repair any damage that has occurred leading to more lost friendships. The SOONER this is dealt with the better.
Hope you get everything sorted.
The problem person has become an integral part of the group. Ejecting him would be very difficult as 3 of the other guys have sort of become like him and will be in support of him.
To the problem person, its always “us” vs “them” or “us” vs “another person”. I have tried talking to him in person, but he always seems to dismiss logical solutions to arguments. Changes topics quickly and He always has to find someone to take his side, so that he wins.
I know for a fact that he can be a decent guy when he is with a group of decent people. But it’s always the negative traits of the group that he ultimately tries to embody (unknowingly). I don’t want to paint him as a villain or anything, it’s just something I’ve observed over the years. Then again I may be wrong.
Like you mentioned, I definitely won’t sweep it under the carpet. It’s never a solution.
Then my solution is to call him out for being shitty in front of as many people as you can. Point out WHY the behaviour is shitty. If they persist, and the others follow the leader like drones, then it might just be time to cut them out of your life.
You aren’t required to keep friends. At all.
I had someone I called a friend SA me. I cut them out of my life, and told people we had in common what happened and that I would no longer be associating and not to be invited to events where they were. I ended up losing that group of friends over it as they choose the person that committed several acts of SA against me.
Yeah, I prefer a direct and honest approach. If it ends up that you lose friends over it, those friends may not be worth keeping.
You painting him as the villain only means adopting his toxic behavior.
He’s your friend. Be very wary of this thread’s overall advice, which mostly seems to be “determine whom to ostracize and then do it”.
Any solution of the form “identify the toxic people and get rid of them” is itself toxic. That’s not how community works.
Are you suggesting OP should be more tolerant of toxic behavior? Because a he’ll get from that is more toxic behavior. Sometimes you have to make hard decisions to get positive results.
Addressing this issue with the offending parties absent is called “gossip” and it is, itself, a toxic social action.
Address it with the people — sorry with the friends — in question.
Yes and no. It’s necessary for interventions and sometimes to determine if someone is being dishonest. There’s a difference between checking a fact with someone else or raising your concerns to a third party about actually problematic behavior and enjoying the discussion and critique of someone else as a bonding activity with another person.
We would have waited a lot longer to get my grandmother tested for Alzheimer’s, if we hadn’t been able to compare our experiences of her, for example.
Next time you’re all together, and every time that guy says something off putting, you should say something in response in front of the whole group. It doesn’t need to be mean, or condescending, or even conflictual. You can make it a question (always open ended!), something along the lines of, “How does talking shit about people serve you?,” “It’s pretty weak to talk shit about someone behind their back. What are you afraid of that you won’t say it to them directly?,” or deflect with humor, “This was maybe funny the first 5 times you said it.” If one of the other guys says something, you could say, “Did Johnny tell you to say that?”, or “Did you learn to talk like that from Johnny?”
You should absolutely make it implied through persistent comments like this that you are observing a problem with how they act. It sounds like the other guys are following the leader, so try becoming the leader and model the behaviors you value.
Also though, you live in a different time zone now, and people change over time. It might also just be time to put more distance between yourself and those guys and find some new friends.
That is a brilliant idea. I’ll incorporate it into my conversation next time.
Imma give you a simple guideline that will serve you well all your life:
don’t focus on what people say, focus on how you feel after parting
If someone makes you feel worse off than before and on a repeat basis, start to backoff and if they make you feel terrible, fucking run!
This rule will save you much heartbreak, pain, and misery.
Edit: there must be room for grace cuz we all fuck up or say fucked uo shit sometimes so def pay it forward but grace should necesarily be limited and on a schedule for the most part
Edit: also be careful, if you’re the shitty/toxic person, you’re gonna feel shitty cuz someone sees thru your bullshit and are healthily resisting that. I can’t help there so the mileage may vary but a little self-awareness + time with a good healthy friend + the occadional AITA with a burner account goes a long way.
For the longest time, I thought it was me who was causing the problems. I started becoming careful about what I say. And as an unintentional result I became aware of what, why and how they speak.
I still consider some situations from an AITA perspective. But I may be biased towards myself. I will take your advice on posting in an AITA community and get some different perspectives.
Thanks for commenting !
Ya, AITA is actually a super useful heuristic for one to try.
- read the OP’s case
- Try to answer their questions in your head as you go along
- Be careful! Its a cointoss as to whether they are massaging the situation and trying to manipulate you into validating them (even the morally superior person may slightly misrepresent to make the narrative more consitent regardless of their meritorious superiority)
- Reply! Like literally post it and see if your interpretation resonates. Be prepared emotionally for some devastating corrections and downvotes. 5.respond to some of the replies you want to engage with or discourse witb regardless of how “nice” it is as opposed to provoking an insight in you ;)
The funniest part of AITA is over time, and not necessarily a long time, you will learn reflexively how everyone’s gonna respond on all sides of the issue like in literary criticism.
- women will think this
- men will think this
- this religion says this
- the upper class might think this
- my PTA group would think this
It sounds like a fairly typical male environment. It will probably be better to talk one on one with the main offenders and gently bring up the topic when they engage in the sort of behaviour that is objectionable.
It’s tough and it happens. Sometimes it feels to me like it’s harder to pick up on nuance over voice chats.
If I were in your shoes, I’d try to meet up with all of them together in some place over the holidays to try to talk it out.
You can be upfront and honest about what you like and don’t like about the person in question’s behaviour, but think ahead of time on how you characterize it so that it’s not offensive to them. (Tip: focus on the fact it’s the behaviour that’s putting you off, not the person)
If they’re receptive they’re worth keeping around, but if they continue to be belligerent then have a discussion with the rest of the group that this friend is changing the group in a way you’re not comfortable with and figure out a solution from there.
We do meet in person once or twice a month. Once I start bringing up anything related to this, the problem guy will just change the topic or run off to somewhere else.
I mean, if you’ve already done what you think is an honest effort to discuss it directly with this person, then talking about it with the rest of the group when this guy runs away is not “behind the guy’s back”. It’s just refusing to participate in that conversation, which they have every right to, but can’t come back and complain about missing out on that discussion.
I figure if you were to give it another go, the best place would be in a casual, low-stress and low-stakes setting, over bubble tea, coffee, pizza, dinner, boardgames, video games, a bar, a park, or whatever is comfortable with your group.
I’d say just hang out with the one guy you mentioned who seems to be on the same page as you. Start your own group and add some new people. If anyone says anything just say you didn’t feel welcome in the old group anymore. If they’re really that toxic towards each other then the whole group will probably fall apart soon anyway.
When people in my friend group say dumb shit, I don’t attack them for it. I mildly question it. I’ll respond with “eh… I dunno about that.” or “you sure about that?” or “that’s not cool, dude.” something mild. Give them a chance to save face. If their behavior keeps up, I amp up my responses in strength. “that’s seriously wrong.” or “knock if off” in a more stern tone.
If that doesn’t work, I’ll state that I don’t really like what’s going on and I don’t wanna be around that. You can’t control others, and so I imply I’m thinking of leaving. If they still change their behavior then maybe it’s time to leave.
People change over time, you’ve changed, they’ve changed. Maybe the season of this friend group has passed.
So is everybody just snapping at each other more? Like is the friend group more angry? I’m kind of confused at the nature of the toxicity. But it does feel like the pressure of society making people a lot more tired and stressed, quick to snap. I’ve notice the same thing with some of friends of mine, and it’s unfortunate =(
Hang out with the old people that are chill and make sure do things and go places where you can meet new people. Take a class in some sort of hobby you’re interested in, join a community group / team for gaming or a sports, etc.
I’ve read through a good chunk of this thread and I think most people are correct in that you should initially be facing this head-on, particularly with the problem dude in person in front of the group. As a secondary action, I’d also recommend tightening your availability for full group activities afterward if it doesn’t resolve itself. What does that look like? Maybe one or two gaming sessions with the full group anymore, but the couple of chill dudes in the group can be separately invited to play something with you, maybe a new, different game. If the problem dude tries to put you on blast for doing this in some way, you have the ammo of “I’ve tried to give you a chance to be less toxic. You’ve refused. I’m trying to maintain friendships with the people who are considerate about my feelings. I’m still making an effort with you and you keep showing me that you’re a bad friend towards me. How much of your bullshit do you think is a reasonable amount for me to have to put up with before I’m justified in walking away?”
I’m sure I don’t need to tell you this, but if you’ve seen him talking about the others behind their backs, and you’re not online with them as often as the others, then he’s almost certainly talking about you behind your back more than he does with everybody else. And any decent person in the group is aware of this and will respect you for speaking up. Just don’t do it yourself in your subgroup with the chill guys. If they bring it up, just say something like “guys, let’s not worry about them, let’s just focus on having a good time together right now.”
Hmm, not sure exactly what you mean by the one who talks, but normally the type I’m thinking of try and be ‘special’ in some way by having secrets with each person. It gives them a sense of control by presuming they have some unique information shared with only certain people. How to get them out of that mentality is a trick, but breaking that illusion of control is a big part of it.
It is possible that this is the case with him. Since he is not good with secrets and will definitely talk behind my back, I stopped sharing anything personal with him. He also digs up such topics from long back and uses it as part of his attack. He probably hates me because I do not share anything personal with him anymore.
Well nowadays I control what I share with the group. wouldn’t want any unnecessary arguments over some silly shit.
I’d love to read up on topics like “breaking illusion of control” you mentioned. Please do suggest if you know any good articles or books that touch on this matter.
I’m not aware of specific writings, but similar topics come up in things like being a leader in the workplace. Say there is someone who has a few skills, but is uniquely the only person who knows how to deal with some arcane process. Now this person has a measure of control by being the only one with ready knowledge of this process, but this also puts them solely as the point of failure and responsible for the outcomes.
So this person has some control but also breeds resentment and is likely holding back other improvements. Someone will eventually find a workaround to this process and strip this person of the special status they had involuntarily and possibly leaving them out in the cold.
Conversely, if this person voluntarily gave up their control, spread the knowledge, helped improve the situation and at the same time relieved themselves of the duty to be the single keeper of knowledge, they become a valued member and even leader within the group.
It may not be a great comparison, but it’s something of a ‘shifting the peceptions’ for someone.
Is it possible the the holidays are potentially making some of your friends more on edge than usual?
