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Not every piece of legislation needs to benefit you. It’s okay if others benefit and you don’t get hurt in the process.
I think it is down right greedy for those who will typically be the highest wage earners to get loan relief for the loans that will make them wealthy. Why not apply that to business loans as well?
It is particularly paid by those that will have lower wages so how can you say it hurts none?
It’s funny how we can print and print money for decades, we can “invest” in private industries, give them loans with favorable interest rates, billions in grants, look the other way with regards to regulations, not block anti-competitive practices, but the second we try to help actual people directly everybody loses their shit.
Want to help the economy? That $10,000 (or $20,000) for Pell grant recipients might allow someone to save $300 more a month towards a house, a car, or spend it on goods and services. After 3 years, that’s money back in the economy rather than back to bank that have gotten plenty of help in the best.
But we can not print money for decades as inflation is now showing. And if you want to help the economy, why not give money to the poor instead of to people that will become some of the highest earners?
What does our debt have to do with this inflation? Over half of inflation was caused by an increase in corporate profits. Most of the rest were supply chain issues and wage increases.
It’s never been a guarantee that a college degree will put someone in the highest class of wage earners, especially for anyone who’s gone to school basically since the turn of the millennium. College tuition and fees have been rising far beyond inflation and wage growth throughout the 21st century so far, without corresponding increase in starting wages for college grads to meet that rise, and with that increase in tuition and fees, more and more students have needed larger and larger loans to pay that cost. Especially for those who went to college in the 2000s, 17-18 year olds could not have predicted that the economy would go to crap (the Great Recession) by the time they graduated, or that new grads would be most hurt by it as companies handed the jobs that would normally go to those new grads to experienced workers who had been laid off, preventing those new grads from gaining the valuable experience and connections that could get them into their industries. Since then the relative value of a college degree has only continued to drop, as those companies continue to shift to valuing experience over education in their hiring practices. New college students and grads can see that now and make better decisions, but back in the 2000s, when those loans that are out there now were taken out, could you really blame a high school kid for not being an expert economist or HR pro enough to figure that would happen? Too many people think of late millennial-Gen Z people when they think of student debt burden, but the largest portion of it is actually held by late Gen X-early Millennials who are paying for the education they got in the 2000s and essentially got shafted on those opportunities they were sold on when they went to the school everyone told them they HAD to go to. (Full disclosure, I am one of those early Millennials.) Biden made a dumb decision by trying to use a law aimed at mitigating COVID economic effects to solve a problem mainly caused by the Great Recession, but it’s still a problem that needs to be solved to essentially prevent an American Lost Generation from forming.
Nothing is guaranteed but there is no question that people with post secondary educations on average will make significantly more money then their peers without over their lifetime. Multiple times more then the size of these loans. I am not crying when they got to pay them back.
This is money that you are investing to make yourself more money latter in life. No different than a business taking out a loan to expand their services. It is simply greed on the part of those that get this but have lower wages earners on the hook for it in either higher taxes or less money in social programs. Tell me one thing that I said that is not correct.
Over a LIFETIME, sure, they will make more. But especially in that past 20 years I’ve been mentioning, they start out with that debt holding them back, and it’s been more difficult for an increasing amount of people over time, due to the economic difficulties and the rising balance and interest of those loans due to exponentially ballooning costs of that education plus inflation, to both pay that debt back and establish a career and stable life that makes that increased earning possible. Most of that increased earning comes later in life for many, and payment on those loans can only be deferred so far. Millions of borrowers are putting off auto and home purchases and even marriage and starting families because their student debt is causing them to not afford such life milestones, because even jobs that require degrees do not pay enough early in one’s career to afford it; the increased earning is back-loaded, and really I would not be surprised if it’s also weighted heavily towards those who were already wealthy and could afford to not have to take out loans for their education, even for advanced degrees that will add on even more to their income. Further, with the value of a degree dropping due to employers focusing on experience over education and the increasing labor market with degrees, that income gap is also likely to drop pretty fast, and that drop I’m value is also likely to hit the grads from lower-income backgrounds who had to take out large amounts of loans much more than the wealthy who likely already had the right connections to get around experience requirements on top of not having to go into debt for their degree. They’re not the ones benefiting from this policy; it’s the ones who struggle despite their degrees, who are possibly hampered economically even more than the folks who didn’t go to college at least during the vital years when they should be able to establish themselves, who would be the main people who benefit.
Bruh. They literally just forgave all the PPP business loans.
Two wrongs make a right? You ok with the next government taking bribes because Trump did it as well?
So the government should take back all the ppe loans they forgave, too, right?
I’m on your side, but at the same time, yes.
You also had to be earning less than $125k/year today to get the forgiveness. The highest wage earners were never eligible.
If they are the highest wage earners, they should also be the highest taxpayers. If we fixed both issues, they would be the ones paying for student loan relief themselves.
So you suggesting the rich that did not go to school should pay less taxes because they did not take out loans?
I’m suggesting that if it’s true that people who go to school end up being the high earners, they should be the highest taxpayers. Because that’s how taxes are supposed to work.
Hurt is a strong word but other people would be paying for that benefit.
It’s not hard to imagine someone who decided to miss out on college and take the career penalty of lacking a 4 year degree just to avoid debt feeling like it’s a bit unfair to have to help pay for other peoples degrees. People who made the decision to take on the debt.
Maybe it’s would be a societal good overall but it’s not like there isn’t another valid side to the debate. Personally I think that money could be better targeted towards those in poverty whether they have student debt or not.
That kind of thing gets subsidized all the time, just not in the form of loan relief
It’s also not hard to imagine that an educated populace benefits everybody
Apparently it hard to imagine for some people.
it’s a weak argument that boils down to “I’m already paying for things via my taxes but I choose to whine about this instance of the Iraq wars… plural”
Trump gave billions to already rich billionares via tax cuts that were permanent for the upper class and temp for everyone else. Don’t get me started on the billions of fraudulent PPP loans that were forgiven and no one said a peep.
But college? For the working class? “What a waste of MY MONEY…”
It’s not like they got education for free. They’re still paying a lot of money.
I went that route and I still want debt relief for those who went through university
What does this even mean lol
It means the people fighting against it are only fighting against it because they don’t get anything from it and that maybe they need to stop and consider that not every piece of legislation needs to benefit them and them only.
I think that may be a generous view of the people fighting against it.
My assumption is that the student debt crisis is by design. Look at how Betsy DeVos was appointed as secretary of education under the previous administration. There are people who benefit from large portions of people being in debt. There’s people who benefit from education being unaffordable. I don’t think it’s about the money of the principal, it the power of having the working class be more desperate.
Ok, ok, let’s just give everyone enough to pay off the largest student loan debt.
I am fighting against it because it only supports those that will become some of the wealthiest sector in the country at the cost to a segment that will be in the lower end of wealth. It is simply greed.
That’s not the only reason to oppose this.
All Bidens solution does is take money from the tax payers to pay off the predatory lenders.
Who owns the debt for federal student loans?
I’ll wait while you learn the answer is, “Department of Education.”
Is the Department of Education a predatory lender?
I’m not super familiar with how it’s suppose to work, but do they even need “taxpayer’s money?” Couldn’t they just decide the debt is paid (or like remove $10,000) and then call it a day?
You’re right. The debt is owned by the Dept. of Education. Forgiving a loan is just as easy as it sounds. They just… change some ledger somewhere and subtract $x from what Bob Student owes.
There’s no money transferred. The only real cost is the loss of interest payments in the future, but those are interest payments made by the student to the servicer (private organization that handles the day-to-day operations, like, collecting payments, sending statements, etc.).
But that potential revenue happens in the future. If the future revenue is less than expected, it’s exactly the same situation you see if say, Congress were to lower taxes. The revenue we expect to get in the future is now lower than thought it would be.
It’s the exact opposite of spending.
But but but what if I’m dumb and I don’t want my tax dollars to invest in a smarter, more educated America so in ~15-20 years when the last of the boomers are drooking and dying in hospice homes they actually have the medical professionals they need.
With the interest rates they push, yes.
You sure about that?
https://studentaid.gov/understand-aid/types/loans/interest-rates#older-rates
Predatory lenders? Biden’s plan largely targeted federal loans. That shit was pretty regulated and had very low interest rates. A pay day loan it was not.
Very low interest rates, yet nobody can pay them off.
Well, consider that we also live in a world where American school districts, in major metro areas, are literally opening up low income housing dorms for teachers, so teachers can afford to subsist on a teacher’s salary.
Low interest doesn’t mean much when you can’t even pay your rent with a job that requires a college education.
Honestly, teachers are a bad comparison when it comes to the student loans debate.
A lot of districts/states/townships have programs that forgive loans for teachers after a predetermined amount of time serving a public school.
You can use the loan to get a bs degree. If you’re in 100k in debt for a degree that gets you 55k a year job you fucked up. The lenders world normally factor that in but if it’s backed by the government then free money.
True. You can get a loan to get a bachelors of science
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What solution do you propose?
Cut off the interest and have borrowers pay back the initial loan.
Predatory lenders get shafted for being pieces of shit. Students get a huge break. The rest of the country doesn’t feel taken advantage of.
But that’ll never happen because profits > people.
Reep what you sow and pay your fucking loan back at the agreed terms at the time of signing.
Personal responsibility is a bitch. Only irresponsible people want loan forgiveness.
Wait until you hear about PPP loans…
So you think the lenders are predatory but still support them and want the borrowers to ‘reep’ what they sow instead. Basically you don’t have any solution but will complain about any solution anybody proposes. Nice.
More like Biden is taking money from the Treasury that then has to print more dollars out of thin air putting our economy even further in debt which sooner or later is going to have large ramifications.
That is why I hold bitcoin
Republicans propose and pass blatantly unconstitutional stuff that there base wants right before elections all the time, then gets mad when courts overturn it right after the election. I’m glad Biden finally got rid of the “legal high ground” concept and started to do some of these “the worst they can say is no” measures.
What was passed by republicans that is unconstitutional. Please elaborate
Good, because the next best option was probably to get together and burn down the Aidvantage headquarters
That’s not off the table
The problem is that everything is now legislated through the courts which is now how this system was designed.
This was not stopping legislation but instead executive action not backed up by legislation. Wouldn’t the next logical step be to actually pass a law?
It is stopping legislation, the Heroes Act specifically. Congress acted to give the Executive branch this power, the Executive branch acted well within that scope, and SCOTUS struck it down by ignoring the plain text of the statute.
It was judicial action to stop legal executive action backed up by legislation. Unless you think Missouri actually had standing and the phrase “waive or modify” doesn’t mean what it clearly means.
They’ll just rule against the law, too. That said, the next step is another executive order (“taking into account the ruling, here’s a new EA”) and a law.
Congress does have the power to write into their laws that they are not eligible for judicial review… but that would give the game away if they actually used that power, they wouldn’t be able to hand-wring and say ‘oh we want to but we can’t because the Supreme Court, etc…’
Dems like to set up their lore progressive bills to fail, but it’s never their fault that way they can fund raise on all the ‘hard work they’re doing for the people’ and they just ‘need to beat the mean-bad-not-good republicans so you should definitely VOTE for the dems every time!’
At least the republicans don’t really hide that they aren’t out to help regular Americans? They all suck equally when they’re owned by corporate lobbyists so whatever I guess 🤷🏻♀️
I dunno about not eligible for judicial review, but the rest of this is dead on.
Its seems as though the sentiment among the high middle class and up is:
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College is important to advance in our societal hierarchy. It is not absolutely necessary but generally you are rewarded for having a higher education in more prestegious institutions.
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People can afford college because they have been saving up generational wealth. Naturally, increasing costs of living shouldnt be an issue.
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College should be about merit not affirmative action. Giving spots for less fortunate makes us less competitive as a nation.
If you cant see how the issues in these statements then i believe you are part of the problem.
Wohoo I’m part of the problem! Let’s go!
Yay you are finally part of something! MOM GET THE CAMERA
Please explain your position more thoroughly for the class so we can examine you in more detail.
what part did you not understand?
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I have a hard time seeing how this program is not unfair (not American so might be missing something).
My understanding is that there are 2 programs. One that helps reduce loans by 1k a year, and another one that forgives loans with less than 12k left after 10 years.
The first one seems to be ok as a measure for new students taking out loans because then it would work as a tool to encourage higher education. But as a blanket help it seems unfair as the benefitting people already made their choice and got (or are getting) their education. For the special case of people who are struggling financially I think a program that is specific to them and helps them relative to their struggle would be more appropriate, and it would surprise me if it doesn’t already exist.
As for the second program it seems to just be a gift to people who have already made their choice and completed their education, and is not fair at all to people who have consciously chosen to not pursue this because they couldn’t afford the debt. If someone is financially struggling see my previous point about more appropriate tools to help them, otherwise if they’re not struggling then what is the point of this?
Furthermore the second program also seems to be a one-off? I’m not sure here so please correct me if I’m wrong. If that is the case then it doesn’t even encourage people to pursue higher education.
Why does it need to be fair? By that logic, we should never change a ton of things, such as tax codes, simply because they’re not retroactive (“how dare the government offer a rebate on solar panels after I’ve already paid full price!”). There isn’t really a good way to make something like student loan forgiveness retroactive and to try and do so would make it excessively expensive.
Why should we hold back on doing a good thing just because it doesn’t help 100% of people ever?
I do agree with you about the core of what you’re saying, that in the end it’s a good thing to help people. For sure. But when talking about public funds you have to keep in mind priorities. In this case I can see how this doesn’t seem like a priority to some people, money is not unlimited and these funds could be used for something else. I would personally be more on board if this program targeted students who are about to get loans, I just think it would have more value to society in general than helping someone who is 10 years into their loan and not struggling financially.
Now as I said I’m not an expert on US public finance so if you tell me that these funds couldn’t be used somewhere else anyway and would be wasted in less important projects then sure I’d revise my opinion.
The argument against your argument is that often the admin costs of means testing exceed any dollars saved. I don’t know the metrics for this, but that certainly is a factor.
The student loan problem (and general debt problem) in the US is such a huge issue that any long term thinking politician would want to take drastic measured to reduce it, whether it’s fair or not. The US put a lot of effort putting it’s population into debt with each side of the political aisle having two very different mindsets:
1: Giving people money now will help them leverage themselves out of poverty. Their good investments will help them repay the loan and then make more than they previously could have.
2: Putting people in debt will make them unable to retaliate against anything that would inhibit their ability to make money to pay off debt (as in, no striking or protesting or anything like that because were all too financially insecure to get away with it). Those who do act out due to poverty can go to prison and be cheap labor there instead.
Not only was the second mindset more correct, the ultra wealthy also won out because, as people defaulted on their debt and markets collapsed, the ultra wealthy with extra liquid cash during recessions scooped up all the cheapened assets.
However, with a financial crisis based around student debt, there’s no asset to even scoop up. You can’t just take peoples degrees as they refuse to pay their student loans. This ones going to cause a global recession (because the global currency is realistically the dollar) for no real gain for even the ultra wealthy. People will have no money to spend on their products and there will be no assets to scoop. Anyone thinking ahead at all would really want to prevent this one from occurring no matter what.
We own a home because of the student loan pause. They sure as hell can take that. There is plenty left for the rich to scoop up. The student loan pause allowed me and many others to move forward in life.
Sure, they can try to come after your assets. My point is:
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Having student loan debt doesnt guarantee you have assets like having a home loan does. You have a home. Many with student loans do not.
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Because the debt is not linked to an asset, the failure of people to pay back student loans en masse will not inherently lower the demand and thus value of an asset.
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Cheap homes have already been taken by cooperations. people with student loans selling their house probably won’t degrade the housing market. Something else will probably tho cos that’s also a shit show right now.
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Since you are not from the US, it might be shocking to you how much the rest of the world considers higher education to be a public good that is subsidized. In the US, the cost is born by students and their families, leaving all but the very wealthy in debt. This is a political choice, just like tax cuts for the wealthy.
https://www.insider.com/cost-of-college-countries-around-the-world-2018-6#austria-914-2
He should propose that those who took out student loans should pay them back. That is what really should happen.
Fuck that. I’ve paid more than $80k+ in extra taxes in the 6 years since I’ve graduated that I wouldn’t have without my degree. This is nothing more than a tax break for me - the little guy. This is nothing compared to their return on investment. Totally why community college/trade school should be free, on condition you graduate or get a job in the field of study.
What about those who took out loans, paid them back, AND paid $80k+ in extra taxes due to the degree they got?
Fuck those people, right?
If you took out a loan, you pay it back. You. Not the taxpayers.
You realise your argument is basically “We couldn’t help one person, now we can’t help anyone else or it would be unfair.”
And noone who already paid off the loans is in a worse position if others don’t have to.
“Wait, I had to work in the mines at 10 years old, why are you banning it now for children? That’s not fair.”
The problem is that the president literally does not have this power. Nancy Pelosi even admitted this. It was a blatantly unconstitutional power grab that he knew would be shut down in the courts but did it anyway since he needed something to run on going into the midterms.
Lol. Funny that you are being downvoted because you are absolutely correct.
I guess the deadbeats don’t care - they just want their free money from the taxpayers.
You call us deadbeats but what about the insane predatory nature of the loans in the first place? Most of us were forced, manipulated, or scared into taking out loans at 18. Most of us also didnt have the education in the first place to understand what the loans all meant, either. “Go to college or you’ll be working the mcdonalds drive-thru at 35” kind of stuff. The brain doesn’t stop developing until like 27, so regardless of what society has decided, 18 year olds are still very much children.
We were tricked/manipulated/sometimes outright lied to, and now 3/4 of the $400 payment goes to interest.
I want to pay back what I borrowed, but at 2/3+ just going to interest, the principal never goes down. For many its still more than they borrowed years and years ago. That’s what’s criminal.
Nobody even had the balls to reply. Just downvote and move on because they know I’m not wrong lol.
I doubt it.
Doubt what?
That it’ll hold up in court probably.
