Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) shares his message to voters in the Uncommitted Movement who are considering not voting in the presidential race over the Biden administration's handling of Israel.
80% Russian campaign and 20% reaction to being lectured constantly by people who will forget that progressive votes are needed to beat Republicans when it comes time to pick a new candidate.
Progressive votes are already counted out. We know there will always be smug pseudo-intellectual “leftists” that will hold their vote as a threat to democracy if the don’t get their way with [current thing]. You do this every election year.
The problem is, you think people are going to give in to your demands when there is SO much more at stake than a war in a country you people couldn’t even locate on a map a year ago.
So no, you all can keep your votes. It’s too late to reason with trolls. The rest of us will be happy enough to not have to deal with you once you all disappear November 5th.
I would agree. Its like 80% russian disinfo or israeli settlers (I would love to see the IPs here) and like 20% people who feel icky about voting for a dem and are doing mental gymnastics.
We need to make the case that Kamala is better than Trump for Palestine, and do it without demonizing those on the fence. They need to understand that their voices will continue to be heard when the election is over, and a whole lot of the rhetoric being aimed at them says just the opposite, or at least implies it. “Let’s elect Kamala so we can continue to fight for Palestine” instead of “Palestine has to take a back seat to all these other issues.”
I will say this. Actual leftists get arrested for protests so like the real people actually fighting for people’s rights know that we’ll be sacrificing less people to stupid shit if Kamala is elected. There is no argument that can be made to armchair leftists and russian trolls though. They have no stake in the outcome because they either have enough privelege to sit it out or they are bad faith.
Been saying it for weeks. Nobody with half a brain would fall for that shit.
A vote against Harris is a vote against protecting America. That may not be true next election(fuck, I hope it’s not), but right here…right now…it’s true.
It will absolutely true next election. Democrats will keep undermining progressives and running weak and ineffective candidates until the dice fall badly and the fascists win. That’s how these cycles always go.
Every election will be more dangerous than the one before until elections stop. The next Trump will be far more capable than the rapist toddler we’re dealing with now.
yeah, we all know that. “the next trump” has been waiting in the wings since that guy got stabbed in ancient Rome. democracy requires all of us to complain and demonstrate.
Where we need to take America doesn’t need extremists, of any kind.
I don’t have a problem when Americans dislike abortions. I do have a problem when they try to take the option away from Americans.
I don’t have a problem with people protesting civil rights violations. I do have a problem with Americans rioting and killing each other.
Extremism of any kind is toxic and has no place in a stable future. That’s because all extremism is born out of a strong emotional desire or need from the people.
IMO the only way out of this is to stomp out the conservative extremist fires and roll back the damage they’ve done. Only this will appease the extreme left enough for them to walk back from the line.
Progress forward is a balancing act that requires a soft touch. Unfortunately we had four years of a crude daft orange ogre that destroyed that balance.
As long as we make it through the next two months, we should be fine. Extremists can’t do anything against a mind they can’t manipulate. Just don’t fall for the emotional trap.
American politics in 2016 wasn’t perfect, that’s why it’s been called the “Great American Experiment”.
But the world was a whole lot quieter in 2015. Wasn’t it?
Americans got along a lot better than they do today in 2015. Didn’t they?
My point was that we need to go back to that if we have any hope of moving forward.
Unfortunately, the Russian and Chinese governments have been trying to drive a wedge between the American public, and they’re succeeding. Their actions have fractured American conservative parties into useless, “do-nothings”. Now they’re trying to do the same thing to the left. Until now they’ve been unsuccessful.
The United States of America has peered into the abyss before, similar to how we are now. I’ll quote something that someone very wise said at that time that still rings true today.
A house divided against itself, cannot stand.
I believe this government cannot endure permanently half slave and half free.
I do not expect the Union to be dissolved – I do not expect the house to fall – but I do expect it will cease to be divided.
It will become all one thing or all the other.
As we stand upon the precipice, with baited breath, I hope for a future that my children can inherit.
You don’t need much of a brain to understand that voting and supporting criminals with blood on their hands is bad. You also don’t need to be too smart to understand that your choice isn’t limited to vote between two colors.
From my perspective, I am the one that cares about results more than feelings, and “blue no matter who” voters are the opposite. The results of democrat leadership have been a horror show of ghoulish support for genocide. The current administrations policies have directly resulted in tens of thousands of deaths (at least) in Gaza. I see a lot of democrats expressing feelings about how Biden and Kamala are actually good people, and are working hard towards a ceasefire. Let me know when to expect another result.
Trump has to say things that differentiate him from democrats. He wants to look ‘tougher’. This is a fucked up result of democrats moving right on things like this and “border security”. Democrat leadership is already doing everything it can to support Israel. Can you think of anything more they could do, that Trump would say “good job, no notes”? Trump talks a lot of shit, but he hasn’t said he would send US troops (Biden already has, BTW).
Trump is an infamous liar. You feel like he would be worse for Palestinians, because you feel like Trump is bad (he is) and that Biden/Harris/Walz are good (they aren’t). The results from the dem leadership have been total support for genocide that is still ongoing.
I’m looking at results: full throated political, and unlimited material support for genocide. Currently. Ongoing. You have a feeling that Trump will be worse ‘somehow’. There is no result to indicate this. Only the campaign bluster of a famous liar.
Your moral standards matter more than the lives of people
My moral standards are that peoples’ lives are important, so killing them is wrong. That’s why I don’t accept that there is a good reason to bomb civilians.
My moral standards are not that you can say “well, killing people is wrong, but I prefer these people, so I will sacrifice others”. If killing people is wrong, you do not accept sacrifice.
And my level of understanding of reality is that the trolley problem is a thought experiment which does not exist, and it’s not a zero sum either/or game where the safety of people in America is only ensured by sacrificing people in the Middle East.
Source: medium
In 1976, Judith J. Thomson expanded the problem into the classic version that most of us know today.
Would you push a fat man off a bridge to stop a runaway trolley from killing 5 workers on the tracks?
This version is not just about switching tracks, but brings the moral issue much closer to home by saying if you want to save 5 people, you yourself have to push someone off a bridge.
To make matters worse, these are also the only two choices that you have. There is nothing else you can do; there is no escaping the problem.
[…]
Like many philosophy instructors, I have given this thought experiment to my students many times. In my philosophy classes, Students of all levels and ages are repulsed by the experiment. They think that it is stupid that there are only two choices and that there is nothing else they can do.
[…]
But something I have never seen given much consideration is the initial response that my students and so many others have to the problem.
[…]
Our intuition is that if we are in a lose-lose moral situation where the right moral action does not feel satisfactory, then someone else made a bad moral decision already; leaving us holding the bag.
You are free to dislike me because I don’t rationalise myself into supporting something I, in the same sentence, say I do not agree with.
I am a very straightforward person, being autistic. If it is wrong to kill innocent people, it is wrong to kill innocent people. No amount of rationalising that can change that obvious fact.
You are a slave to a practical human world wherein, to be good, some humans must die. ‘Le shrug, oh well, it is the price of being practical.’
Yes, the system sucks, and we should do what we can to fix it.
What is also important is Order of Operations. It will be much harder (if not impossible) to effect any positive change on the systems that be if the orange orangutan wins the election, while those changes will be at least possible under the leadership of the blue candidate.
I like to think that people who are not able to figure this out are victims of republican/russian propaganda. To think otherwise would be both depressing and enraging and I have too much of my own shit going on to deal with any of that.
I don’t think you can end up anywhere good by bargaining with genocide. “Sucks” doesn’t even come close to describing such a system. The order of operations you’re talking about sounds to me like: 1- elect the more decorous monster 2- go back to ignoring all the suffering. I’ll definitely agree that it’s depressing, but it doesn’t require any foreign propaganda to be that.
So you admit that the options are literally “get worse slowly” or “burn it all,” and you would rather see everyone suffer? Cool. No wonder everyone loves far-leftists.
And you actually believe that not participating pushes towards that goal? Or can we live in reality and admit that it just makes you feel better while having the opposite effect?
Sure, but one side seems to be advocating for more of the same shittiness we’ve had for decades, and the other side for a final solution to the Palestinian problem. It’s not like the choices are equal.
At what point during that poem would you consider a genocide underway? Would it be when they started murdering all of the communists? Or maybe after they eliminated all of the trade unionists?
Let’s extend that poem to include all of the categories of people that the Nazis killed:
They started with trans people, was it a genocide yet? How about after they started including homosexuals?
Maybe it becomes a genocide when they go after the mentally and physically disabled?
Or does it only become a genocide when they go after the Jews?
Obviously, the answer is all of the fucking above.
Guess what: Genocide very much can and does get worse. Much much worse. This concept that it is all or nothing is completely ahistorical and illogical.
That’s been my experience on Lemmy recently too. It feels like there is a push to disenfranchise to “teach them a lesson we dont support genocide by ensuring a somewhat more genocidal maniac gets in instead”.
I get the sentiment, but it ignores the two party system, and not voting does not fix that broken system, it ensures it. And I think the trolls know this too.
It’s the same in my Eastern European country - Russians run two troll campaigns:
to disenfranchise any pro-democratic voters, with slogans like “all candidates are shit and corrupt, you should hate them, politics, and the whole democratic process”
to boost nationalist, far-right, anti-establishment parties - there are several of them to cast a wider net over the electorate, and they can assemble together to run their always pro-Russian politics after getting in Parliament
It’s the dame playbook everywhere they care to get results and undermine their enemies.
Several of my alt accounts have been banned across the fediverse for calling out such nans. I figure if my alts get banned for that, then I should block them from my main.
(if anyone takes offense to me having “several” alts, that’s because without using 3rd party apps you can’t categorize interests like reddit’s multis feature without just having multiple accounts with their own sub list.)
Are you aware that USA spend 10 times as much money on war and propaganda than russia does? The current government of USA is fueling a genocide in gaza and supporting the fascist israel government. There sure is russian propaganda too around but keep in mind that is in the interest of the government to cover up its wrongdoing and keep trust among the public.
USA spend 10 times more money in war and propaganda than anyone else and they are being accused of supporting a genocide. Labeling as “russian trolls” these who are saying to not support the government or vote for criminals with blood on their hands sound more like the propaganda rather than people pointing the finger at war criminals.
Because Harris is open to ceasefire pressure and Trump want’s Israel to ‘Finish the job’.
One’s hands aren’t morally clean if you don’t vote and Trump wins. Not voting is functionally equivalent to voting for whoever wins, and if he does win with a low turnout then those who didn’t vote are responsible for whatever happens.
I’ve responded in detail to at least a dozen people like this saying the same stupid shit and it’s consistently a total waste of time. You just get back some idiocy like “okay U support genocide” and they don’t seem to comprehend anything at all or even read it. Kind of makes me doubt they’re serious about anything but helping Trumpy out.
Yeah… I still do it though, because it’s not necessarily for the person I’m replying to, but for anyone else who might stumble upon the thread and be bombarded with disinformation.
I get your frustration, but it is really important to keep spelling it out. I find it very frustrating to be on the receiving and of lines like I'm tired of explaining itto you people when I am earnestly engaging in a conversation for the first time, so I think it’s best to give people the benefit of the doubt that maybe they really don’t know, especially on forums where people other than those commenting will read it also.
We’ve been hearing this exact same stupid shit all year. It’s hard believing these people are serious. Getting Trump elected doesn’t help not ‘support genocide’ and they never, ever, ever address that.
Israel is already finishing the job with the help of USA
Not voting is functionally equivalent to voting for whoever wins
Don’t try to bend logic. Voting for criminals with blood on their hands is evil and will lead to nothing good. The responsible for what happens are the one who directly supported criminals into power not the ones who didn’t.
One of Harris and Trump is going to be the president. Sorry but that is the reality, the time for getting a better candidate has passed.
It is time to pick which one you want. If you don’t vote you don’t care so you accept either outcome.
Voting is not and should not be wholly endorsing the person, but securing the best outcome from the options. You want better options then go into politics yourself.
US government is supporting a genocide where kids are being murdered daily. It’s time to do something about it unless you are fine with your money being send to israel fascist government and being used to murder people.
Or maybe people actually see what’s going on and see children get shredded with America’s permission, democratic permission, and with American bombs with American intelligence and say hey we don’t want this to happen anymore.
Maybe they see the party that is supposedly the “good” party brutally shut down protests against a genocide funded by them inside college campuses and think oh hey, that doesn’t seem like free speech.
Maybe they see a party just as bought out and in lockstep with billionaires and think oh hey, that’s not democracy.
Maybe they see a party that for two election cycles in a row has stolen the candidacy – more people wanted Bernie than Clinton in 2016 but they gave it to Hillary because why? “It was her turn”
Then when half the party was pissed and worried with Biden, did they hold a snap election? Like every other civilized developed country? Nah, they just said here you are, take kamala.
And kamala has just been like yes we will keep bombing kids.
Maybe Muslim Americans and other brown Americans are tired of for 25 years being both sides boogeyman. They just expect us to sit there and vote democrat while they spend 25 years telling everyone that they are terrorists, that they bomb places, that they hate America, that they are an other, a column that doesn’t matter. And if trump wins it will be their fault again. Not the fault of the 55% white people who somehow think that he’s okay.
Maybe you guys need to get your head out your asses and see that america is not a beacon on a hill, it’s a 300.year old empire that is crumbling into the gutter in front of you, and when empires do that, fascism follows. And you lot really need to realize that at this point, whether it’s Democrat or republican, it’s fascist. There is no choice, just the illusion of one. And again, democrats are as bought out by billionaires as the Republicans are.
It’s like going to the store and seeing 15 different varieties of the same candy but they’re all made by the same company and taste just ever so slightly different.
And Trump straight up said that Israel needs to “finish the job” and that the Gaza Strip will make his beachfront property. So yeah, be sick of what’s been going on. Most of us are. But also think of the consequences of the inactions if Trump becomes president. You’ll also have to deal with that.
Kamala and Biden haven’t said finish the job, they’ve just given all the weapons and money anyway. They built a pier using billions of dollars saying it was for aid and then launched a massacre from the pier and then disabled it
They haven’t worked for a ceasefire they’ve vetoed every single one
I’m not saying vote for Trump. But the constant blackmail of oh if you don’t vote for one genocidal maniac you’ll get a worse genocidal maniac also doesn’t really seem like democracy does it?
I hold with what almost every peace keeper has said. If your uplift is rooted in another’s oppression, you are not free.
If the democrats really want to win, why not follow the will of the majority of the American people, who say they want an embargo of arms?
Why are the democrats courting Dick Cheney and a bunch of Reagan era politicians rather than listening to their voting base?
The fault isn’t going to be Muslim or black voters if kamala loses. It’s going to be the dems and the fact that they are not even a center left party at this point. They are what the Republicans used to be, and the republican party is now rabid and needs to be put down.
It’s true that the US vetoed a handful of UN ceasefire resolutions. However, public opinion seems to be swaying them. The last resolution the US proposed called for a ceasefire to protect civilians and aid relief (not far enough, but something), but was vetoed by Russia and China. All subsequent resolutions the US has voted for, but have likewise been vetoed by those 2 countries.
The Dems have no power in Congress, so any sort of embargo or can on their part is never going to pass. In fact early on there were multiple attempts at calls for a ceasefire by multiple Democrats, but it wouldn’t even make the floor thanks to conservative Democrats like Pelosi, Manchin, and Costa.
But by idly sitting by and showing protest by inaction, it’s potentially handing complete control over to the Republicans when they’re potentially at their most extreme. With Trump in command you’re now looking at mass deportation of Muslims and Latinos, active participation in Middle East conflicts like Palestine and Iran. Not to mention all of the other issues we’ll now have to contend with like states gaining the ability to limit the rights of LGBTQ, POC, and women to an extreme (Tennessee is already attempting to make it so people of “non-traditional” marriages can be denied a license based on individual ideologies of the official).
I agree that what’s going on in Palestine is horrible and I wish that the Biden administration and the rest of the old-guard Democrats weren’t so afraid of being called antisemitic just for standing up against the catastrophies of Israel, but that’s the hand we’ve been dealt.
As Cori Bush said, it’s about voting strategy over good conscience. There’s times in life where you don’t want to do something, but it’s what needs to be done. Ultimately do you feel that your want to vote against Harris is more important than the need for Trump to not be in office, because you need to understand that a non-vote is in fact a vote for Trump.
The US led ceasefire basically walked back any and all real war ending measures and was just basically a propaganda piece covering for Israel.
From the UNs own website:
The vetoed draft would have made imperative an immediate and sustained ceasefire in Gaza, with an “urgent need to expand the flow of humanitarian assistance” to all civilians and lifting “all barriers” to delivering aid
Council members disagreed over elements of the draft, and some highlighted glaring exclusions despite having raised multiple concerns with the US during negotiations
Ambassadors largely supported swift action to bring food and lifesaving aid at scale into Gaza, where a UN-backed report on Monday raised alarms about famine as Israel continues to block and slow walk shipments into the besieged enclave
Even when the dems did have power in congress, they did fuck all. As you said, the democratic establishment blocked any movement.
Not voting is intrinsically not a vote for anyone. I’ve voted dem in every single election since I’ve been old enough to vote. Genocide is not something I can countenance. If this was the Trump administration doing this the dems would be shouting from the rooftops about how it’s inconscionable. They’re in control and they are doing the same thing.
Stop relying on black and brown voters to save your asses each time.
I agree, the US resolution was not good. That being said, they’ve voted in favor of the other 2 resolutions put forward by other countries since then.
And I’m sorry, but in a two party system, withholding your vote for 1 candidate is a vote for the other one. Conservatives, since the moment this country was founded, have attempted to deny our dissuade voting to people. Now those people who they have been attempting to deny are just doing it themselves voluntarily.
I also really do not like the “stop relying on black and brown people” rhetoric. Is it true that the majority of white people are conservative while the majority of POC are progressive? Yeah. But that doesn’t mean the white progressives are relying on POC to “save [our] asses.” If we’re being honest, as a cis straight white middle class male I’ll probably be fine under a Trump presidency. I’ll pay more for goods and probably have my taxes go up, but so will 99% of the population. What I’m voting for though is the desire to lift every single person up and create an even playing field for everyone. Is it going to happen under a Harris presidency? Hell no. Is it going to happen in my lifetime? Probably not. But by voting Dem are we going to get just that little bit closer? Yes. But that’s definitely not going to happen under a Trump presidency, because they will do absolutely everything they can to prevent progress. In fact, they will do everything they can to enact regression as far back as they can. Most Republicans would be perfectly fine with only Anglo -Saxon male land owners being able to vote, and that’s what they’re striving for.
So hold your vote, that’s your right. But that’s not what your responsibility should be.
Probs not he’d probably want me dead if he saw what I’ve said about him
Unless you’re saying you want everyone who disagrees with you to go get bombed?
Speaking of, how is what Putin is doing in Ukraine any different than what Israel is doing in Palestine?
In fact there have been less medics and journalists and civilians killed in the russia Ukraine war in the last what 3 years it’s been going on than israel murdered in the last year. Why is Biden saying that is illegal and everyone needs to listen to the UN, but when the same UN votes to censure Israel, it’s just crickets?
If anything, things are far worse in Palestine then they are in Ukraine.
But they’ll be worse in both locations if Trump wins, which Putin wants.
But he might decide that he should instead send his troll farms to the front line, if they are proving to be less effective than they were in the past.
That’s called logic. And a firm understanding of how things work. But also, that comes from people that know Harris will do what she is able to stop it once she’s elected, but needs to play the game to have a chance for that to happen.
How have you concocted such a fantasy? What sign has Harris given that she will deviate one iota from the current policy towards Israel? You just wish it to be so. Even if this were somehow true, it is almost worse! “No, you see, I have to support genocide now, so I can win all the pro genocide votes, and then as soon as I’ve won, I’ll betray the people that elected me by stopping the genocide.” Smell the logic, lol.
I’ve seen many: ‘feel free to vote 3rd party, its okay to not support a genocidal candidate’ very few ‘dont vote or you support genocide’ are you sure you’re reading peoples posts correctly?
its really not. ever heard of the saying: ‘its the journey, not the destination?’ maybe you should just try putting an ounce of effort into not supporting a genocide. even if that just means lieing to a pollster about your support for harris. make her sweat a little. maybe even at the end of the day change her position.
trust me its pretty easy. I’m doing putting that ounce in right now. emailing my critters, casting my 3rd party vote, dealing with you twits who are blinding running off a cliff for fear of trump and enabling a genocide in the process. I don’t expect you to go as far I do but thats okay. I dont mind if you vote for harris. I mind that she supports genocide. I mind she doesn’t support labor. I’m willing to sacrifice some of those things to avoid trump. but I’m not willing to leave her unbloodied while she supports a genocide.
We’re not responsible for harris’ genocidal positions. she is. she chose this. she can also not chose it. we’ll welcome her back to the family when she does.
is it though? would you be in such a panic over the issue if people like me were not doing what we’re doing? no? would harris be suffering in the polls and struggling if not for us telling everyone exactly what we’re going to do and why?
Would they have bothered trotting out bernie to ‘reason with us’? you know what harris needs to do to get our votes. the question is are you so callous that you’d support a genocide instead of telling harris and the DNC to stop being shit stains? the vote are here she just needs to take them.
there isnt anything for you to fear if you reach out and embrace your arab and jewish brothers and sisters. why are you trying so had to enable a genocide when you can just… not. you can still vote for harris in the end if you really want, I dont mind. its your vote. but couldn’t you just… try? even a little bit? maybe lie to a pollster about your support, email your critters daily this week? maybe follow through and vote 3rd party or leave the president blank if you’re in a 20+ blue state.
We’re not responsible for harris’ genocidal positions. she is. she chose this. she can also not chose it. we’ll welcome her back to the family when she does.
im convinced at this point that the “don’t vote or you support genocide” thing is a russian troll campaign
Oh It 100% is.
80% Russian campaign and 20% reaction to being lectured constantly by people who will forget that progressive votes are needed to beat Republicans when it comes time to pick a new candidate.
Progressive votes are already counted out. We know there will always be smug pseudo-intellectual “leftists” that will hold their vote as a threat to democracy if the don’t get their way with [current thing]. You do this every election year.
The problem is, you think people are going to give in to your demands when there is SO much more at stake than a war in a country you people couldn’t even locate on a map a year ago.
So no, you all can keep your votes. It’s too late to reason with trolls. The rest of us will be happy enough to not have to deal with you once you all disappear November 5th.
Typical. You don’t even know the difference between a progressive and a tankie.
Project much?
I would agree. Its like 80% russian disinfo or israeli settlers (I would love to see the IPs here) and like 20% people who feel icky about voting for a dem and are doing mental gymnastics.
We need to make the case that Kamala is better than Trump for Palestine, and do it without demonizing those on the fence. They need to understand that their voices will continue to be heard when the election is over, and a whole lot of the rhetoric being aimed at them says just the opposite, or at least implies it. “Let’s elect Kamala so we can continue to fight for Palestine” instead of “Palestine has to take a back seat to all these other issues.”
I will say this. Actual leftists get arrested for protests so like the real people actually fighting for people’s rights know that we’ll be sacrificing less people to stupid shit if Kamala is elected. There is no argument that can be made to armchair leftists and russian trolls though. They have no stake in the outcome because they either have enough privelege to sit it out or they are bad faith.
Been saying it for weeks. Nobody with half a brain would fall for that shit.
A vote against Harris is a vote against protecting America. That may not be true next election(fuck, I hope it’s not), but right here…right now…it’s true.
It will absolutely true next election. Democrats will keep undermining progressives and running weak and ineffective candidates until the dice fall badly and the fascists win. That’s how these cycles always go.
Every election will be more dangerous than the one before until elections stop. The next Trump will be far more capable than the rapist toddler we’re dealing with now.
yeah, we all know that. “the next trump” has been waiting in the wings since that guy got stabbed in ancient Rome. democracy requires all of us to complain and demonstrate.
it’s a lot of good people on the far left side of twitter
Where we need to take America doesn’t need extremists, of any kind.
I don’t have a problem when Americans dislike abortions. I do have a problem when they try to take the option away from Americans.
I don’t have a problem with people protesting civil rights violations. I do have a problem with Americans rioting and killing each other.
Extremism of any kind is toxic and has no place in a stable future. That’s because all extremism is born out of a strong emotional desire or need from the people.
IMO the only way out of this is to stomp out the conservative extremist fires and roll back the damage they’ve done. Only this will appease the extreme left enough for them to walk back from the line.
Progress forward is a balancing act that requires a soft touch. Unfortunately we had four years of a crude daft orange ogre that destroyed that balance.
As long as we make it through the next two months, we should be fine. Extremists can’t do anything against a mind they can’t manipulate. Just don’t fall for the emotional trap.
Stay calm, stay vigilant, stay in control.
You won’t do anything, centrist, that’s the point of being a centrist.
“America in 2016 was perfect until orange man ruined it, we simply need to return to 2016 and everything will be ok”
American politics in 2016 wasn’t perfect, that’s why it’s been called the “Great American Experiment”.
But the world was a whole lot quieter in 2015. Wasn’t it?
Americans got along a lot better than they do today in 2015. Didn’t they?
My point was that we need to go back to that if we have any hope of moving forward.
Unfortunately, the Russian and Chinese governments have been trying to drive a wedge between the American public, and they’re succeeding. Their actions have fractured American conservative parties into useless, “do-nothings”. Now they’re trying to do the same thing to the left. Until now they’ve been unsuccessful.
The United States of America has peered into the abyss before, similar to how we are now. I’ll quote something that someone very wise said at that time that still rings true today.
As we stand upon the precipice, with baited breath, I hope for a future that my children can inherit.
So, Make America Great Again
America is just Exceptional that way
This was reported, I’m not sure its rule breaking, but its weirdly aggressive.
Just like me personally
XD
I’m pretty sure this has been the scare tactic for the last 8 presidential elections of my lifetime
You don’t need much of a brain to understand that voting and supporting criminals with blood on their hands is bad. You also don’t need to be too smart to understand that your choice isn’t limited to vote between two colors.
I mean… you said it.
But I agree, only idiots believe that third parties are viable in our broken electoral saystem
The system is so broken that only an idiot could believe in it. Third parties are the lesser evil choice.
The genocide will continue no matter who wins. The argument is dumb.
Sounds like a hell of a system.
Campaign locally to change the system - we need more places to use preferential voting like ranked choice before third parties will matter.
Until that happens, you can either work within the system that does exist or decide that your feelings matter more than the results 🤷♂️
From my perspective, I am the one that cares about results more than feelings, and “blue no matter who” voters are the opposite. The results of democrat leadership have been a horror show of ghoulish support for genocide. The current administrations policies have directly resulted in tens of thousands of deaths (at least) in Gaza. I see a lot of democrats expressing feelings about how Biden and Kamala are actually good people, and are working hard towards a ceasefire. Let me know when to expect another result.
That’s easy - when Trump is elected and he fully opens our arsenal and actually provides troops instead of maintaining current levels of support.
He has explicitly said that we aren’t doing enough and that Israel isn’t doing enoughevery single time he has spoken on the topic. Believe him.
You’re saying killing innocent people is wrong?
I agree! We should stop doing that.
Trump has to say things that differentiate him from democrats. He wants to look ‘tougher’. This is a fucked up result of democrats moving right on things like this and “border security”. Democrat leadership is already doing everything it can to support Israel. Can you think of anything more they could do, that Trump would say “good job, no notes”? Trump talks a lot of shit, but he hasn’t said he would send US troops (Biden already has, BTW).
Wait, so who’s arguing on feelings instead of the issues and results, again? 🤔
You.
Trump is an infamous liar. You feel like he would be worse for Palestinians, because you feel like Trump is bad (he is) and that Biden/Harris/Walz are good (they aren’t). The results from the dem leadership have been total support for genocide that is still ongoing.
I’m looking at results: full throated political, and unlimited material support for genocide. Currently. Ongoing. You have a feeling that Trump will be worse ‘somehow’. There is no result to indicate this. Only the campaign bluster of a famous liar.
My moral standards do matter more than the human world, yes.
Your moral standards matter more than the lives of people actually affected by the results. Yes, we all know how selfish you are, don’t worry.
My moral standards are that peoples’ lives are important, so killing them is wrong. That’s why I don’t accept that there is a good reason to bomb civilians.
My moral standards are not that you can say “well, killing people is wrong, but I prefer these people, so I will sacrifice others”. If killing people is wrong, you do not accept sacrifice.
And my level of understanding of reality is that the trolley problem is a thought experiment which does not exist, and it’s not a zero sum either/or game where the safety of people in America is only ensured by sacrificing people in the Middle East.
Source: medium
You are free to dislike me because I don’t rationalise myself into supporting something I, in the same sentence, say I do not agree with.
I am a very straightforward person, being autistic. If it is wrong to kill innocent people, it is wrong to kill innocent people. No amount of rationalising that can change that obvious fact.
You are a slave to a practical human world wherein, to be good, some humans must die. ‘Le shrug, oh well, it is the price of being practical.’
Yes, the system sucks, and we should do what we can to fix it.
What is also important is Order of Operations. It will be much harder (if not impossible) to effect any positive change on the systems that be if the orange orangutan wins the election, while those changes will be at least possible under the leadership of the blue candidate.
I like to think that people who are not able to figure this out are victims of republican/russian propaganda. To think otherwise would be both depressing and enraging and I have too much of my own shit going on to deal with any of that.
I don’t think you can end up anywhere good by bargaining with genocide. “Sucks” doesn’t even come close to describing such a system. The order of operations you’re talking about sounds to me like: 1- elect the more decorous monster 2- go back to ignoring all the suffering. I’ll definitely agree that it’s depressing, but it doesn’t require any foreign propaganda to be that.
Thank you for saying this. If we keep choosing the ‘lesser of two evils’, we just keep allowing things to get worse, albeit more slowly.
So you admit that the options are literally “get worse slowly” or “burn it all,” and you would rather see everyone suffer? Cool. No wonder everyone loves far-leftists.
I would rather not see innocent people die.
And you actually believe that not participating pushes towards that goal? Or can we live in reality and admit that it just makes you feel better while having the opposite effect?
Everyone loves civilians in the Middle East too, so much they send them explosive gifts.
Sure, but one side seems to be advocating for more of the same shittiness we’ve had for decades, and the other side for a final solution to the Palestinian problem. It’s not like the choices are equal.
I’ve got a question for you… I’m sure you are familiar with the famous, “First They Came” sermon/poem/whatever by Martin Niemöller? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came_…
At what point during that poem would you consider a genocide underway? Would it be when they started murdering all of the communists? Or maybe after they eliminated all of the trade unionists?
Let’s extend that poem to include all of the categories of people that the Nazis killed:
They started with trans people, was it a genocide yet? How about after they started including homosexuals?
Maybe it becomes a genocide when they go after the mentally and physically disabled?
Or does it only become a genocide when they go after the Jews?
Obviously, the answer is all of the fucking above.
Guess what: Genocide very much can and does get worse. Much much worse. This concept that it is all or nothing is completely ahistorical and illogical.
Sounds like you agree it’s bad enough now to want to stop it.
Bad enough to do what is in my power to reduce it. Which means voting for Harris.
That’s been my experience on Lemmy recently too. It feels like there is a push to disenfranchise to “teach them a lesson we dont support genocide by ensuring a somewhat more genocidal maniac gets in instead”.
I get the sentiment, but it ignores the two party system, and not voting does not fix that broken system, it ensures it. And I think the trolls know this too.
Somewhat?
It’s the same in my Eastern European country - Russians run two troll campaigns:
to disenfranchise any pro-democratic voters, with slogans like “all candidates are shit and corrupt, you should hate them, politics, and the whole democratic process”
to boost nationalist, far-right, anti-establishment parties - there are several of them to cast a wider net over the electorate, and they can assemble together to run their always pro-Russian politics after getting in Parliament
It’s the dame playbook everywhere they care to get results and undermine their enemies.
Pretty strong clues that it’s organized bullshit propaganda.
To be fair, with a stance so immensely stupid, there isn’t much else to say.
It’s kind of obvious
Several of my alt accounts have been banned across the fediverse for calling out such nans. I figure if my alts get banned for that, then I should block them from my main.
(if anyone takes offense to me having “several” alts, that’s because without using 3rd party apps you can’t categorize interests like reddit’s multis feature without just having multiple accounts with their own sub list.)
I’m* convinced
It’s just the left eating itself. Many such cases.
Are you aware that USA spend 10 times as much money on war and propaganda than russia does? The current government of USA is fueling a genocide in gaza and supporting the fascist israel government. There sure is russian propaganda too around but keep in mind that is in the interest of the government to cover up its wrongdoing and keep trust among the public.
I’m aware that the US government does propaganda too, yes. I have no idea what it has to do with this.
USA spend 10 times more money in war and propaganda than anyone else and they are being accused of supporting a genocide. Labeling as “russian trolls” these who are saying to not support the government or vote for criminals with blood on their hands sound more like the propaganda rather than people pointing the finger at war criminals.
We fucking know, dude.
That’s why we’re voting for Harris. And no, I’m not going to explain why for the 1000th fucking time.
You are voting for them because "The current government of USA is fueling a genocide in gaza and supporting the fascist israel government. "?
Because Harris is open to ceasefire pressure and Trump want’s Israel to ‘Finish the job’.
One’s hands aren’t morally clean if you don’t vote and Trump wins. Not voting is functionally equivalent to voting for whoever wins, and if he does win with a low turnout then those who didn’t vote are responsible for whatever happens.
Thanks for this… I’m tired of typing the same shit over and over and over.
I’ve responded in detail to at least a dozen people like this saying the same stupid shit and it’s consistently a total waste of time. You just get back some idiocy like “okay U support genocide” and they don’t seem to comprehend anything at all or even read it. Kind of makes me doubt they’re serious about anything but helping Trumpy out.
Yeah… I still do it though, because it’s not necessarily for the person I’m replying to, but for anyone else who might stumble upon the thread and be bombarded with disinformation.
I get your frustration, but it is really important to keep spelling it out. I find it very frustrating to be on the receiving and of lines like
I'm tired of explaining it to you peoplewhen I am earnestly engaging in a conversation for the first time, so I think it’s best to give people the benefit of the doubt that maybe they really don’t know, especially on forums where people other than those commenting will read it also.We’ve been hearing this exact same stupid shit all year. It’s hard believing these people are serious. Getting Trump elected doesn’t help not ‘support genocide’ and they never, ever, ever address that.
Well, luckily you can tag people with most Lemmy apps, so sometimes it’s easy to know when people are acting in bad faith.
Don’t worry buddy, someone else typed it for you. You can now go back chilling while USA government aid israel fascist government in murdering kids
I’m not your buddy.
They are the vice president of an administration that is fueling the genocide and aiding israel fascist government with “whatever it needs”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_support_for_Israel_in_the_Israel–Hamas_war
Israel is already finishing the job with the help of USA
Don’t try to bend logic. Voting for criminals with blood on their hands is evil and will lead to nothing good. The responsible for what happens are the one who directly supported criminals into power not the ones who didn’t.
One of Harris and Trump is going to be the president. Sorry but that is the reality, the time for getting a better candidate has passed.
It is time to pick which one you want. If you don’t vote you don’t care so you accept either outcome.
Voting is not and should not be wholly endorsing the person, but securing the best outcome from the options. You want better options then go into politics yourself.
US government is supporting a genocide where kids are being murdered daily. It’s time to do something about it unless you are fine with your money being send to israel fascist government and being used to murder people.
Whew, got the trolls following me around today, boyeeee! Let’s go!
Or maybe people actually see what’s going on and see children get shredded with America’s permission, democratic permission, and with American bombs with American intelligence and say hey we don’t want this to happen anymore.
Maybe they see the party that is supposedly the “good” party brutally shut down protests against a genocide funded by them inside college campuses and think oh hey, that doesn’t seem like free speech.
Maybe they see a party just as bought out and in lockstep with billionaires and think oh hey, that’s not democracy.
Maybe they see a party that for two election cycles in a row has stolen the candidacy – more people wanted Bernie than Clinton in 2016 but they gave it to Hillary because why? “It was her turn”
Then when half the party was pissed and worried with Biden, did they hold a snap election? Like every other civilized developed country? Nah, they just said here you are, take kamala.
And kamala has just been like yes we will keep bombing kids.
Maybe Muslim Americans and other brown Americans are tired of for 25 years being both sides boogeyman. They just expect us to sit there and vote democrat while they spend 25 years telling everyone that they are terrorists, that they bomb places, that they hate America, that they are an other, a column that doesn’t matter. And if trump wins it will be their fault again. Not the fault of the 55% white people who somehow think that he’s okay.
Maybe you guys need to get your head out your asses and see that america is not a beacon on a hill, it’s a 300.year old empire that is crumbling into the gutter in front of you, and when empires do that, fascism follows. And you lot really need to realize that at this point, whether it’s Democrat or republican, it’s fascist. There is no choice, just the illusion of one. And again, democrats are as bought out by billionaires as the Republicans are.
It’s like going to the store and seeing 15 different varieties of the same candy but they’re all made by the same company and taste just ever so slightly different.
And Trump straight up said that Israel needs to “finish the job” and that the Gaza Strip will make his beachfront property. So yeah, be sick of what’s been going on. Most of us are. But also think of the consequences of the inactions if Trump becomes president. You’ll also have to deal with that.
What’s worse?
Kamala and Biden haven’t said finish the job, they’ve just given all the weapons and money anyway. They built a pier using billions of dollars saying it was for aid and then launched a massacre from the pier and then disabled it
They haven’t worked for a ceasefire they’ve vetoed every single one
I’m not saying vote for Trump. But the constant blackmail of oh if you don’t vote for one genocidal maniac you’ll get a worse genocidal maniac also doesn’t really seem like democracy does it?
I hold with what almost every peace keeper has said. If your uplift is rooted in another’s oppression, you are not free.
If the democrats really want to win, why not follow the will of the majority of the American people, who say they want an embargo of arms?
Why are the democrats courting Dick Cheney and a bunch of Reagan era politicians rather than listening to their voting base?
The fault isn’t going to be Muslim or black voters if kamala loses. It’s going to be the dems and the fact that they are not even a center left party at this point. They are what the Republicans used to be, and the republican party is now rabid and needs to be put down.
It’s true that the US vetoed a handful of UN ceasefire resolutions. However, public opinion seems to be swaying them. The last resolution the US proposed called for a ceasefire to protect civilians and aid relief (not far enough, but something), but was vetoed by Russia and China. All subsequent resolutions the US has voted for, but have likewise been vetoed by those 2 countries.
The Dems have no power in Congress, so any sort of embargo or can on their part is never going to pass. In fact early on there were multiple attempts at calls for a ceasefire by multiple Democrats, but it wouldn’t even make the floor thanks to conservative Democrats like Pelosi, Manchin, and Costa.
But by idly sitting by and showing protest by inaction, it’s potentially handing complete control over to the Republicans when they’re potentially at their most extreme. With Trump in command you’re now looking at mass deportation of Muslims and Latinos, active participation in Middle East conflicts like Palestine and Iran. Not to mention all of the other issues we’ll now have to contend with like states gaining the ability to limit the rights of LGBTQ, POC, and women to an extreme (Tennessee is already attempting to make it so people of “non-traditional” marriages can be denied a license based on individual ideologies of the official).
I agree that what’s going on in Palestine is horrible and I wish that the Biden administration and the rest of the old-guard Democrats weren’t so afraid of being called antisemitic just for standing up against the catastrophies of Israel, but that’s the hand we’ve been dealt.
As Cori Bush said, it’s about voting strategy over good conscience. There’s times in life where you don’t want to do something, but it’s what needs to be done. Ultimately do you feel that your want to vote against Harris is more important than the need for Trump to not be in office, because you need to understand that a non-vote is in fact a vote for Trump.
The US led ceasefire basically walked back any and all real war ending measures and was just basically a propaganda piece covering for Israel.
From the UNs own website:
The vetoed draft would have made imperative an immediate and sustained ceasefire in Gaza, with an “urgent need to expand the flow of humanitarian assistance” to all civilians and lifting “all barriers” to delivering aid Council members disagreed over elements of the draft, and some highlighted glaring exclusions despite having raised multiple concerns with the US during negotiations Ambassadors largely supported swift action to bring food and lifesaving aid at scale into Gaza, where a UN-backed report on Monday raised alarms about famine as Israel continues to block and slow walk shipments into the besieged enclave
https://news.un.org/en/story/2024/03/1147856
Even when the dems did have power in congress, they did fuck all. As you said, the democratic establishment blocked any movement.
Not voting is intrinsically not a vote for anyone. I’ve voted dem in every single election since I’ve been old enough to vote. Genocide is not something I can countenance. If this was the Trump administration doing this the dems would be shouting from the rooftops about how it’s inconscionable. They’re in control and they are doing the same thing.
Stop relying on black and brown voters to save your asses each time.
I agree, the US resolution was not good. That being said, they’ve voted in favor of the other 2 resolutions put forward by other countries since then.
And I’m sorry, but in a two party system, withholding your vote for 1 candidate is a vote for the other one. Conservatives, since the moment this country was founded, have attempted to deny our dissuade voting to people. Now those people who they have been attempting to deny are just doing it themselves voluntarily.
I also really do not like the “stop relying on black and brown people” rhetoric. Is it true that the majority of white people are conservative while the majority of POC are progressive? Yeah. But that doesn’t mean the white progressives are relying on POC to “save [our] asses.” If we’re being honest, as a cis straight white middle class male I’ll probably be fine under a Trump presidency. I’ll pay more for goods and probably have my taxes go up, but so will 99% of the population. What I’m voting for though is the desire to lift every single person up and create an even playing field for everyone. Is it going to happen under a Harris presidency? Hell no. Is it going to happen in my lifetime? Probably not. But by voting Dem are we going to get just that little bit closer? Yes. But that’s definitely not going to happen under a Trump presidency, because they will do absolutely everything they can to prevent progress. In fact, they will do everything they can to enact regression as far back as they can. Most Republicans would be perfectly fine with only Anglo -Saxon male land owners being able to vote, and that’s what they’re striving for.
So hold your vote, that’s your right. But that’s not what your responsibility should be.
Will Putin send you to the front lines if Trump loses?
Probs not he’d probably want me dead if he saw what I’ve said about him Unless you’re saying you want everyone who disagrees with you to go get bombed?
Speaking of, how is what Putin is doing in Ukraine any different than what Israel is doing in Palestine?
In fact there have been less medics and journalists and civilians killed in the russia Ukraine war in the last what 3 years it’s been going on than israel murdered in the last year. Why is Biden saying that is illegal and everyone needs to listen to the UN, but when the same UN votes to censure Israel, it’s just crickets?
If anything, things are far worse in Palestine then they are in Ukraine.
But they’ll be worse in both locations if Trump wins, which Putin wants.
But he might decide that he should instead send his troll farms to the front line, if they are proving to be less effective than they were in the past.
And what about the “vote for genocide or you support genocide-plus!” posts?
That’s called logic. And a firm understanding of how things work. But also, that comes from people that know Harris will do what she is able to stop it once she’s elected, but needs to play the game to have a chance for that to happen.
But you all know this already. Don’t you?
How have you concocted such a fantasy? What sign has Harris given that she will deviate one iota from the current policy towards Israel? You just wish it to be so. Even if this were somehow true, it is almost worse! “No, you see, I have to support genocide now, so I can win all the pro genocide votes, and then as soon as I’ve won, I’ll betray the people that elected me by stopping the genocide.” Smell the logic, lol.
I’ve seen many: ‘feel free to vote 3rd party, its okay to not support a genocidal candidate’ very few ‘dont vote or you support genocide’ are you sure you’re reading peoples posts correctly?
Same thing. The fact that most of these accounts, very similar to your own, are new accounts speaks volumes.
its really not. ever heard of the saying: ‘its the journey, not the destination?’ maybe you should just try putting an ounce of effort into not supporting a genocide. even if that just means lieing to a pollster about your support for harris. make her sweat a little. maybe even at the end of the day change her position.
trust me its pretty easy. I’m doing putting that ounce in right now. emailing my critters, casting my 3rd party vote, dealing with you twits who are blinding running off a cliff for fear of trump and enabling a genocide in the process. I don’t expect you to go as far I do but thats okay. I dont mind if you vote for harris. I mind that she supports genocide. I mind she doesn’t support labor. I’m willing to sacrifice some of those things to avoid trump. but I’m not willing to leave her unbloodied while she supports a genocide.
We’re not responsible for harris’ genocidal positions. she is. she chose this. she can also not chose it. we’ll welcome her back to the family when she does.
It’s the same fucking thing, oh my god
is it though? would you be in such a panic over the issue if people like me were not doing what we’re doing? no? would harris be suffering in the polls and struggling if not for us telling everyone exactly what we’re going to do and why?
Would they have bothered trotting out bernie to ‘reason with us’? you know what harris needs to do to get our votes. the question is are you so callous that you’d support a genocide instead of telling harris and the DNC to stop being shit stains? the vote are here she just needs to take them.
there isnt anything for you to fear if you reach out and embrace your arab and jewish brothers and sisters. why are you trying so had to enable a genocide when you can just… not. you can still vote for harris in the end if you really want, I dont mind. its your vote. but couldn’t you just… try? even a little bit? maybe lie to a pollster about your support, email your critters daily this week? maybe follow through and vote 3rd party or leave the president blank if you’re in a 20+ blue state.
We’re not responsible for harris’ genocidal positions. she is. she chose this. she can also not chose it. we’ll welcome her back to the family when she does.