• @FooBarrington
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    121 year ago

    No, this is bullshit. FOSS advocates don’t have faith in the one true RMS or whatever you’re trying to peddle here. They have a principled stance derived from logic. You’re free to disagree with them, but you can’t just paint them as religious because they have a stance you disagree with!

    • @MooseBoys
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      1 year ago

      principled stance derived from logic

      Those logical conclusions must inherently flow from philosophical axioms that comprise the person’s world view. Two of the most fundamental axioms that lead to supporting FOSS are not supported by everyone. Namely:

      1. What is “good” exists independent of human convention (i.e. Kantian vs. Utilitarian ethical belief system)
      2. Humans should endeavor to be morally good (i.e. Altruism vs. Egoism)

      Those axioms cannot be logically derived from some fundamental truth - they must come from one’s own personal belief system, i.e. their “religion” (definition 3).

      Someone following Kantian ethics and Altruism morality (whether or not they’re aware of the names) will probably end up favoring FOSS. Someone who has a more Utilitarian and Egoistic world view will probably be okay with proprietary software.

      This is all kind of a moot point because I don’t think this sense of the word is what Musk was referring to - he was probably using it as sense 1 sarcastically and mockingly.

      • @FooBarrington
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        61 year ago

        Those axioms cannot be logically derived from some fundamental truth - they must come from one’s own personal belief system, i.e. their “religion” (definition 3).

        You’re re-defining religion here, because even if fundamental axioms are arbitrarily chosen, it doesn’t mean they are adhered to based on faith. I don’t have faith in my principles. I think they are good due to the evidence I’ve seen for them, but if I saw evidence for problems with my fundamental axioms, I’d adopt new axioms. This is fundamentally different from believing in something due to faith.

        • @MooseBoys
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          -61 year ago

          it doesn’t mean they are adhered to based on faith

          If not “faith” then what? Note that “faith” doesn’t need to mean some higher power; it just needs to be something you believe without evidence. Any “evidence” you claim to have experienced to support your worldview must inherently be interpreted through an existing lens of one’s own world view, which circularly depends on one’s axioms. You fundamentally cannot have a worldview without some amount of faith in something.

          More concretely, the only thing one can prove a priori is “cogito ergo sum” (“I think, therefore I am”). Any further cognitive reasoning requires faith in one or more axioms about the world, e.g. “the world exists independent of my own perception”.

          • @FooBarrington
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            1 year ago

            If not “faith” then what?

            Because I haven’t been convinced by something better. That’s it.

            Note that “faith” doesn’t need to mean some higher power; it just needs to be something you believe without evidence.

            According to what definition? Let’s look at Merriam Webster, since you’re basing your whole argument around their definitions:

            1 a : allegiance to duty or a person : LOYALTY lost faith in the company’s president b (1) : fidelity to one’s promises (2) : sincerity of intentions acted in good faith

            2 a (1) : belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2) : belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion b (1) : firm belief in something for which there is no proof clinging to the faith that her missing son would one day return (2) : complete trust

            3 : something that is believed especially with strong conviction especially : a system of religious beliefs the Protestant faith

            None of these apply to me, or other FOSS advocates I know. I don’t have a strong conviction towards my basic axioms, since as I said, I simply haven’t come across better ones.

            More concretely, the only thing one can prove a priori is “cogito ergo sum” (“I think, therefore I am”). Any further cognitive reasoning requires faith in one or more axioms about the world, e.g. “the world exists independent of my own perception”.

            And thus you completely devalue the terms “faith”, “religion” etc., because according to you literally everything past “Cogito ergo sum” is faith. Every word you wrote is faith. Everything you think beyond your basic capability to think is faith. It’s fine if you want to decide for yourself that this is how you view these words, but it’s not how other people use them, because they simply have no utility the way you use them.

            • @MooseBoys
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              -41 year ago

              It’s fine if you want to decide for yourself that this is how you view these words, but it’s not how other people use them

              Oxford English Dictionary:

              faith: …. a strongly held belief or theory. “the faith that life will expand until it fills the universe”

              • @FooBarrington
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                41 year ago

                Once again: my axioms are not strongly held beliefs. How often do I have to repeat this?

      • @zeppo
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        21 year ago

        I view it more like: don’t let proprietary software manufacturers fuck you over, not something about morality.

      • @kaffiene
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        21 year ago

        I have a degree in Philosophy. You are redefining words to make your argument. That’s not how good arguments work.