That’s what this whole debate is. Some people think that a few hundred years is far enough back but others insist we should think about what happened in 1000 BC. There is no “right” answer. We just need a way to stop people getting killed.
Respectfully, I disagree. While there are definitely religious zealots on both sides who will argue about historical rights, the vast majority of people involved look at this as strictly a modern-day issue.
Israel was created as a solution to the problem that millions of Jews were homeless refugees after surviving the Holocaust.
The Arabs could have welcomed them, worked out two-state solution with mutual economic interests and good trade relations. Instead they absolutely refused to give up anything to these poor folks who just barely survived a horrific atrocity that killed a third of their entire population.
That’s not too say that the Jews didn’t also commit atrocities by driving Arabs from their towns.
Just saying, the lack of compassion from the Arab countries was legendary. And they immediately tried to wipe Israel off the map.
For Israel’s entire existence, everything has been about survival, surrounded by genocidal neighbors. They do what they do because they’ve literally been under attack for their nation’s entire history.
I’d also love to see and send to hostilities, but Palestinians with their ZERO bargaining power have decided for decades that they will not agree to any peace deal that doesn’t destroy Israel.
The ball is in their court. Has been for a very long time.
Yeah sorry but I think the “modern day” part has an issue you identified here:
Israel was created as a solution to the problem that millions of Jews were homeless refugees after surviving the Holocaust.
Exactly. Israel was created without the consent of the people already living there, in the British Mandate of Palestine aka Palestine.
The Arabs could have welcomed them, worked out two-state solution with mutual economic interests and good trade relations. Instead they absolutely refused to give up anything to these poor folks
Imagine that Russia renames Crimea and declares it an independent country. Should Ukraine accept the “two state solution”? You cannot brush over the fundamental history of what happened.
You’re right, it is a modern issue, and this is it. It is not accepted by the people who were already living there and it never has been.
Of course in practice I don’t think anyone should be removed from their homes. The solution to this problem shouldn’t be more atrocities. But when we lose sight of the fundamental cause of the issue it’s easy to create this narrative like you just did that people should have welcomed the colonial creation with open arms, even after people were driven from their homes in the nakba and have never been able to return.
It was created with the consent of the sovereign power that controlled the territory. You don’t like that the British controlled the territory, take it up with them. Not Israel’s problem.
I am British and no, I do not like what the British did.
I just think it’s relevant 🤷♂️ obviously you don’t.
Again I would say the Russia / Crimea example is valid. If they (the sovereign power that controls the territory) created a new state there should Ukrainians accept it? Would you?
The difference is that in your scenario, there is a realistic path towards Ukraine getting is territory back.
In Israel, there is NO realistic path towards them EVER getting territory back from Israel.
So the question is, do you then let go of the past, and you’re hatred for the enemy, and focus on giving your kids a future will the possibility of prosperity under a new normal?
Israel was created because all the countries that the Jews lived in for some reason didn’t want them back and so the western superpowers stole land from Palestine to give to the Jews. No one gave them a choice. Why should their land be stolen because your holy book 1000 years ago says you used to live there?
You guys clearly fucked off and moved. That was your choice. Why should the current people have to lose their land because you all of the sudden wanted to come back?
Also why couldn’t the Jews keep living in the countries that they lived in prior to WW2?
It’s not like the entire population of those countries decided to leave and go somewhere else.
How about we start it when the allies decided to dump refugees in the desert instead of integrating them in their own countries. instead their antisemitic asses said “let’s give the Jews a homeland”. Then a few generations of nationalist propaganda and you have the modern state of Israel with no historic ties to the kingdom of Israel besides a name pushing the most ironic genocide.
The difference would be that Palestinians would love to leave the, what do you guys like to call it? “Open air prison”.
You can try to move the Israelis if you want. Let me know how that goes for you.
Yes, the Palestinians would like to return to their homes, in the region that by all rights should be called Palestine.
Sure, if you want to look back in history and then stop when it’s convenient for you, and not dig any further.
That’s what this whole debate is. Some people think that a few hundred years is far enough back but others insist we should think about what happened in 1000 BC. There is no “right” answer. We just need a way to stop people getting killed.
Respectfully, I disagree. While there are definitely religious zealots on both sides who will argue about historical rights, the vast majority of people involved look at this as strictly a modern-day issue.
Israel was created as a solution to the problem that millions of Jews were homeless refugees after surviving the Holocaust.
The Arabs could have welcomed them, worked out two-state solution with mutual economic interests and good trade relations. Instead they absolutely refused to give up anything to these poor folks who just barely survived a horrific atrocity that killed a third of their entire population.
That’s not too say that the Jews didn’t also commit atrocities by driving Arabs from their towns.
Just saying, the lack of compassion from the Arab countries was legendary. And they immediately tried to wipe Israel off the map.
For Israel’s entire existence, everything has been about survival, surrounded by genocidal neighbors. They do what they do because they’ve literally been under attack for their nation’s entire history.
I’d also love to see and send to hostilities, but Palestinians with their ZERO bargaining power have decided for decades that they will not agree to any peace deal that doesn’t destroy Israel.
The ball is in their court. Has been for a very long time.
Yeah sorry but I think the “modern day” part has an issue you identified here:
Exactly. Israel was created without the consent of the people already living there, in the British Mandate of Palestine aka Palestine.
Imagine that Russia renames Crimea and declares it an independent country. Should Ukraine accept the “two state solution”? You cannot brush over the fundamental history of what happened.
You’re right, it is a modern issue, and this is it. It is not accepted by the people who were already living there and it never has been.
Of course in practice I don’t think anyone should be removed from their homes. The solution to this problem shouldn’t be more atrocities. But when we lose sight of the fundamental cause of the issue it’s easy to create this narrative like you just did that people should have welcomed the colonial creation with open arms, even after people were driven from their homes in the nakba and have never been able to return.
It was created with the consent of the sovereign power that controlled the territory. You don’t like that the British controlled the territory, take it up with them. Not Israel’s problem.
I am British and no, I do not like what the British did.
I just think it’s relevant 🤷♂️ obviously you don’t.
Again I would say the Russia / Crimea example is valid. If they (the sovereign power that controls the territory) created a new state there should Ukrainians accept it? Would you?
The difference is that in your scenario, there is a realistic path towards Ukraine getting is territory back.
In Israel, there is NO realistic path towards them EVER getting territory back from Israel.
So the question is, do you then let go of the past, and you’re hatred for the enemy, and focus on giving your kids a future will the possibility of prosperity under a new normal?
For me, that would be a yes.
Israel was created because all the countries that the Jews lived in for some reason didn’t want them back and so the western superpowers stole land from Palestine to give to the Jews. No one gave them a choice. Why should their land be stolen because your holy book 1000 years ago says you used to live there?
You guys clearly fucked off and moved. That was your choice. Why should the current people have to lose their land because you all of the sudden wanted to come back?
Also why couldn’t the Jews keep living in the countries that they lived in prior to WW2?
It’s not like the entire population of those countries decided to leave and go somewhere else.
People still believe this? Ain’t no way.
Look at the first statement on the Wikipedia page of Zionism. When was it made?
What about the Balfour Declaration? C’mon, there is no way you’re this ignorant. I mean you even typed up a whole-ass paragraph.
The ball is in their court?
Yeah?
Yeah?
Just committed atrocities by driving Arabs from their towns, yeah?
Yeah?
Yeah?
“They just drove them.”
It’s always a treat seeing genocide-apologists trying to twist the narrative.
You just have to look at the date of Israel’s founding to understand that the Holocaust was the catalyst for it’s creation.
How about we start it when the allies decided to dump refugees in the desert instead of integrating them in their own countries. instead their antisemitic asses said “let’s give the Jews a homeland”. Then a few generations of nationalist propaganda and you have the modern state of Israel with no historic ties to the kingdom of Israel besides a name pushing the most ironic genocide.
Genocide?
My bad, I confused you with a serious person for a minute.