Hi /c/vegan,
I’m a baby “vegan”, just started about a month ago. I started watching the YouTuber MicTheVegan as my main influence.
I’ve been really working on and developing my belief system. The issue is, my belief system so far, while it is like 97% consistent with veganism, does have some conflicts with veganism, and I think some people would say that I can’t call myself a vegan because of that.
Basically, I think it’s too broad to simply lump all animals into one category and say that any at all exploitation of them is wrong. Instead, I like taking a very scientific approach about what we know about different animals’ cognitive and emotional abilities, and perhaps prioritize different groups of animals differently.
While I’m still developing my belief systems, here’s a basic rundown of it:
Tier 1: Primates, cetaceans (whales, dolphins), elephants, certain bird species (corvids, parrots), octopuses
These animals are highly intelligent and should never be exploited for any manner. They should not be kept as pets or in zoos (I suppose exceptions for if an animal is injured beyond repair).
Tier 2: Domesticated mammals (dogs, cats), farm animals (pigs, cows), other bird species, certain fish species (cleaner wrasse, groupers)
The only difference between these animals and tier 1 animals, is that I believe they can be kept in captivity (pets or in zoos). However, they need to be kept up to really high standards. They need a lot of space and a lot of enrichment. Yes, I currently believe that most people who keep dogs as pets do not treat them well enough, but I also believe that if you do treat them well that it is okay.
Tier 3: Reptiles, amphibians, remaining fish species.
The only difference between these animals and tier 2 animals is that I think the standard for keeping them in captivity can be slightly lowered. I say this as a reptile lover, I have a couple lizards as pets. These animals still need very high standards for treatment, but I believe it’s okay to keep them in “cages” (really terrariums and aquariums). Basically, the science we have says that these animals just don’t need the same level as enrichment. Some lizards will literally sit in one spot for days. And yes, I highly believe that these animals are abused in reality. Many people keep these animals in far too small enclosures, among other problems.
The discussion of whether or not it’s okay to breed these animals is highly nuanced, but I know with reptiles and amphibians, they really don’t have any connection to their offspring so I don’t think it’s unethical to separate them. Some reptiles who lay eggs will even lay eggs regardless of if they are fertilized or not. I haven’t made my mind up about it, but I think you could make an argument that you could ethically breed reptiles, maybe even argue that allowing them to breed let’s them live a more natural life.
Tier 4: Insects, arachnids
Okay this is where a lot of vegans will lose me. These animals should absolutely never be tortured, but I personally think that they can be ethically farmed and consumed. I think these animals have simple enough brains that their quality of life when in a farmed environment really isn’t that much different than their natural lives. I personally don’t eat bugs, but I feed them to my lizards. That being said, I still think they deserve a decent amount of space, some enrichment, and a cruelty free life up until their death.
Tier 5: Bivalves (clams, mussels), annelids (earthworms), sponges.
Once again will get some hate for it, but these animals I also believe can be farmed and with even less consideration than the tier 4 animals. I don’t really think these animals need any laws protecting them. They don’t have central nervous systems.
Animal I’m not sure about: Crustaceans (somewhere between tier 3 and tier 4), Many fish species need more research (but I do standby that some fish, like carp and goldfish, belong in my tier 3).
I’m curious what other vegan’s thoughts are about this. Can I not call myself a vegan because of this?
I mostly agree on how you sorted these animals based on their intellect and I can agree with at least the first three tiers conclusions. But as you already suspected, I disagree on the 4th and 5th tiers conclusions.
You can never ethically kill any animal. To truly call oneself a vegan, one must desire to not cause any unneccesary harm on animals. Based on their intellect, you may change the requirements to keep them ‘happy’, but their ability to suffer is not purely based on intellect. I’m not sure to what extend insects are capable of suffering, but they seem to actively avoid pain which is enough for me to not cause them any. To draw a line which animals are intelligent enough to protect is the kind of hubris that created the current meat farming system in the first place.
That being said, you’re almost there and I’d call you a proper vegan based on my information. Surely there are ‘perfect vegans’ out there, but I’d never exclude someone who tries in earnest. After all, I’m not perfect either and cannot judge. While I try to avoid it whenever possible, I’ve killed bugs myself since turning vegan and I’m still keeping the cat I had before going vegan.
There’s definitely an extent to which my conclusion of “it’s okay to eat insects” stems from trying to cope with the fact that I have pet reptiles that need to eat insects.
I definitely believe that insects feel pain, which is why I try to give them a good life while they are alive. I guess I’m saying that if they are killed instantly, then they could potentially die a painless death, and maybe that’s okay because they don’t live that long in the first place.
Suspected as much. I’m not into reptiles that much, so I cannot speak about their dietary requirements. But if they have to eat insects, I’d still consider you vegan despite feeding them. If you did not feed them, either someone else would do so or you would inflict harm on animals dear to your heart by starving them. Feeding them youself and minimizing the suffering of any insects along the way is probably the best outcome here. The only hard requirement on pets I would personally stand by is to only get them out of shelters, therefore not supporting commercial breeding or capturing. But that’s only for future animals you might get.
Be careful with the last reasoning you gave, that’s the sams kind of logic that people use to justify killing cows. “Bolt guns kill them instantly and are therefore okay. They had enough of an fulfilled live (assuming the highest grade of keeping them).” - which is very much not the case.