The inability to recognize the highly nuanced cognitive differences between different animal species is slightly putting me off of "strict" veganism - Lemmy.World
lemmy.world
Hi /c/vegan, I’m a baby “vegan”, just started about a month ago. I started watching the YouTuber MicTheVegan as my main influence. I’ve been really working on and developing my belief system. The issue is, my belief system so far, while it is like 97% consistent with veganism, does have some conflicts with veganism, and I think some people would say that I can’t call myself a vegan because of that. Basically, I think it’s too broad to simply lump all animals into one category and say that any at all exploitation of them is wrong. Instead, I like taking a very scientific approach about what we know about different animals’ cognitive and emotional abilities, and perhaps prioritize different groups of animals differently. While I’m still developing my belief systems, here’s a basic rundown of it: Tier 1: Primates, cetaceans (whales, dolphins), elephants, certain bird species (corvids, parrots), octopuses These animals are highly intelligent and should never be exploited for any manner. They should not be kept as pets or in zoos (I suppose exceptions for if an animal is injured beyond repair). Tier 2: Domesticated mammals (dogs, cats), farm animals (pigs, cows), other bird species, certain fish species (cleaner wrasse, groupers) The only difference between these animals and tier 1 animals, is that I believe they can be kept in captivity (pets or in zoos). However, they need to be kept up to really high standards. They need a lot of space and a lot of enrichment. Yes, I currently believe that most people who keep dogs as pets do not treat them well enough, but I also believe that if you do treat them well that it is okay. Tier 3: Reptiles, amphibians, remaining fish species. The only difference between these animals and tier 2 animals is that I think the standard for keeping them in captivity can be slightly lowered. I say this as a reptile lover, I have a couple lizards as pets. These animals still need very high standards for treatment, but I believe it’s okay to keep them in “cages” (really terrariums and aquariums). Basically, the science we have says that these animals just don’t need the same level as enrichment. Some lizards will literally sit in one spot for days. And yes, I highly believe that these animals are abused in reality. Many people keep these animals in far too small enclosures, among other problems. The discussion of whether or not it’s okay to breed these animals is highly nuanced, but I know with reptiles and amphibians, they really don’t have any connection to their offspring so I don’t think it’s unethical to separate them. Some reptiles who lay eggs will even lay eggs regardless of if they are fertilized or not. I haven’t made my mind up about it, but I think you could make an argument that you could ethically breed reptiles, maybe even argue that allowing them to breed let’s them live a more natural life. Tier 4: Insects, arachnids Okay this is where a lot of vegans will lose me. These animals should absolutely never be tortured, but I personally think that they can be ethically farmed and consumed. I think these animals have simple enough brains that their quality of life when in a farmed environment really isn’t that much different than their natural lives. I personally don’t eat bugs, but I feed them to my lizards. That being said, I still think they deserve a decent amount of space, some enrichment, and a cruelty free life up until their death. Tier 5: Bivalves (clams, mussels), annelids (earthworms), sponges. Once again will get some hate for it, but these animals I also believe can be farmed and with even less consideration than the tier 4 animals. I don’t really think these animals need any laws protecting them. Animal I’m not sure about: Crustaceans (somewhere between tier 3 and tier 4), Many fish species need more research (but I do standby that some fish, like carp and goldfish, belong in my tier 3). I’m curious what other vegan’s thoughts are about this. Can I not call myself a vegan because of this?

Hi /c/vegan,

I’m a baby “vegan”, just started about a month ago. I started watching the YouTuber MicTheVegan as my main influence.

I’ve been really working on and developing my belief system. The issue is, my belief system so far, while it is like 97% consistent with veganism, does have some conflicts with veganism, and I think some people would say that I can’t call myself a vegan because of that.

Basically, I think it’s too broad to simply lump all animals into one category and say that any at all exploitation of them is wrong. Instead, I like taking a very scientific approach about what we know about different animals’ cognitive and emotional abilities, and perhaps prioritize different groups of animals differently.

While I’m still developing my belief systems, here’s a basic rundown of it:

Tier 1: Primates, cetaceans (whales, dolphins), elephants, certain bird species (corvids, parrots), octopuses

These animals are highly intelligent and should never be exploited for any manner. They should not be kept as pets or in zoos (I suppose exceptions for if an animal is injured beyond repair).

Tier 2: Domesticated mammals (dogs, cats), farm animals (pigs, cows), other bird species, certain fish species (cleaner wrasse, groupers)

The only difference between these animals and tier 1 animals, is that I believe they can be kept in captivity (pets or in zoos). However, they need to be kept up to really high standards. They need a lot of space and a lot of enrichment. Yes, I currently believe that most people who keep dogs as pets do not treat them well enough, but I also believe that if you do treat them well that it is okay.

Tier 3: Reptiles, amphibians, remaining fish species.

The only difference between these animals and tier 2 animals is that I think the standard for keeping them in captivity can be slightly lowered. I say this as a reptile lover, I have a couple lizards as pets. These animals still need very high standards for treatment, but I believe it’s okay to keep them in “cages” (really terrariums and aquariums). Basically, the science we have says that these animals just don’t need the same level as enrichment. Some lizards will literally sit in one spot for days. And yes, I highly believe that these animals are abused in reality. Many people keep these animals in far too small enclosures, among other problems.

The discussion of whether or not it’s okay to breed these animals is highly nuanced, but I know with reptiles and amphibians, they really don’t have any connection to their offspring so I don’t think it’s unethical to separate them. Some reptiles who lay eggs will even lay eggs regardless of if they are fertilized or not. I haven’t made my mind up about it, but I think you could make an argument that you could ethically breed reptiles, maybe even argue that allowing them to breed let’s them live a more natural life.

Tier 4: Insects, arachnids

Okay this is where a lot of vegans will lose me. These animals should absolutely never be tortured, but I personally think that they can be ethically farmed and consumed. I think these animals have simple enough brains that their quality of life when in a farmed environment really isn’t that much different than their natural lives. I personally don’t eat bugs, but I feed them to my lizards. That being said, I still think they deserve a decent amount of space, some enrichment, and a cruelty free life up until their death.

Tier 5: Bivalves (clams, mussels), annelids (earthworms), sponges.

Once again will get some hate for it, but these animals I also believe can be farmed and with even less consideration than the tier 4 animals. I don’t really think these animals need any laws protecting them. They don’t have central nervous systems.

Animal I’m not sure about: Crustaceans (somewhere between tier 3 and tier 4), Many fish species need more research (but I do standby that some fish, like carp and goldfish, belong in my tier 3).

I’m curious what other vegan’s thoughts are about this. Can I not call myself a vegan because of this?

  • @HaggunenonsEnglish
    5•1 year ago

    Imagine a level 0 species that is as much more intelligent and aware than the level 1 species that you listed as the level 1 are from the level 2 animals. For example, maybe level 0 species are capable of trapping level 1 creatures into geographic and economic situations, sometimes even without the level 1 species being aware that this is happening, and limiting the freedom that they otherwise could have had, and preventing them from expressing their natural desire to see and explore as much as they are naturally driven to do. Now imagine a -1 level, -2, -3, etc. Would you be ok with being treated increasingly worse so long as the one doing the abuse was a succifiently high enough intelligence/capability/rank above you? Just because some people really want to trap other animals in little boxes for their own amusement doesn’t mean the animals want it. In almost all cases, if you leave the cage open, even the level 3 and below animals will naturally choose to wonder off and take advantage of their newly acquired right to freedom of movement and exploration.

    I think the original position argument is valid here. If you knew that you had a 50/50 chance of being 1)a lifelong pet who will never get to experience the natural freedom that your genes have evolved for over billions of years, or 2)a human with a pet, would you still vote for this pet-having system? Or is your decision to deprive animals of their natural habitat and curiosity just one that you’ve come to after realizing that you are a human who would like to have an extra interesting thing to look at when you are bored?