which side is really refusing negotiations: the ones getting armed by the biggest military power in the planet, with the intention of ethnic cleansing, or the ones getting their country leveled fighting with improvised bombs?
Hamas is holding Palestine hostage, they haven’t had elections in how long? Netanyahu is basically the George W Bush of Israel, curating the current situation in order to create the theatre of war. Meanwhile there are some ridiculously powerful Arab countries right next door who talk a lot of shit about Israel but curiously won’t lift a finger to aid Palestine. Why is that?
The leaders on both sides are at fault. And their neighbours leaders. And world leaders. We need everyday people to stand up to this populist war mongering bullshit. Fuck the nepo babies who inherit their positions of power and influence - if we don’t say something now we’re all doomed.
Hamas has called for elections numerous times in the last decades. Israel and the US’s client government in the west bank, the Palestinian authority, refuses because they recognize that they will lose. Hamas is at no fault. As a resistance organization they are of the utmost moral standing. They engaged in symmetric military combat with the Israeli military in a textbook act of honorable military resistance when they had no obligation to. They display humaneness towards Israeli colonizers that defies all the brutality that Israel has visited upon the Palestinian people. This is a war against colonialism and imperialism. The belligerents in this war are the united states and Israel. What needs to happen is that they are defeated.
Fuck the Israeli government with a cactus, but that doesn’t mean Hamas is anything other than horrible. Groups of “the utmost moral standing” don’t seek out civilian casualties or rape women in the street or accept funding from the Israeli government to keep the “war” (oppression and genocide of Palestinians) going as long as possible
The reality is they did not target civilians, they only targetted soldiers and policemen, and they did not rape anyone on the 7th of October. The first point is corroborated by the testimonies of the Israelis in kibbutz be’eri who said the fighters did not harm them but asked them to call the police. In addition to the testimonies that the IDF shelled homes with their inhabitants and fighters inside, fired from helicopters onto the music festival, and shot their own citizens while trying to target qassam fighters, and the casualty figures reported by Israel itself, where 200, half of the burned unidentified bodies turned out to be Palestinians, its evident that Israel caused the overwhelming majority of civilian deaths on 7/10.
The rape and sexual assault allegations are completely uncorroborated to this day, not even one testimony or piece of evidence supports them.
This is not to imply that Palestinian resistance would be wrong to target Israeli “civilian” settlers, they would not. Settlers are active participants and beneficiaries of violence, murder, oppression, and ethnic cleansing. The social order where their comfortable lives depend on Palestinian death and subjugation must be upended. For the oppressed to inflict violence on their colonizers is for them to assert their humanity.
They literally posted videos of it, the fuck are you talking about? Hamas is a piece of shit terrorist dictatorship that Israel supports and allows to exist as an excuse to keep killing Palestinian civilians. Btw the “they don’t want to be in power but nobody will let them step down” bullshit is very tired and very obviously bullshit, you sound like a tankie trying to explain how Stalin wasn’t a dictator. Hamas isn’t fighting for the people, they’re tin pot tyrants with suitcases full of money from their supposed enemy, a convenient excuse for Israel to drive out and kill everyone in Gaza. Hamas is a pawn in Netanyahu’s game, if you hate zionism you should hate Hamas too
Saying “this section of the planet belongs to a specific race because they’re fractionally descended from one of the people that lived there a long time ago” is dumb as fuck. Modern people have 0 connection to Jews that long ago and most modern Israeli Jews aren’t actually ethnically similar to Jews thousands of years ago, most Israelis are primarily European descendant or other non-Palestinian descendant.
Modern Israelis are not the same group as the various historical groups referred to as “Jews”. Your logic is flawed.
Just a slight correction; something like 60 percent of modern Israelis are Mizrahi, meaning they are from the Middle East and have no European ancestry or connection to Europe. Ethnically they are very similar to the Palestinians and if you put them together in a mixed group, you probably wouldn’t be able to tell them apart based on appearance alone.
There’s also no reason to think that Mizrahi Jews aren’t largely descended from the ancient Jewish population since wherever they’ve lived in the Middle East, they’ve never been fully integrated and have always been pretty insular. Most scholars think that the same is true to a lesser extent of Ashkenazi Jews as well, though obviously they have a lot more European ancestry.
Total war is not just an abstract political move, it’s an immense suffering and deaths of dozens of thousands of civilians.
It’s easy to play political mastermind from the safety and comfort of your home. People who witnessed war know full well what it entails, and they know it’s not just numbers and maps and politics.
It’s blood. It’s broken families. It’s famine. It’s the destruction of everything they valued. It’s PTSD for just about everyone who managed to survive.
Think twice before saying things like that. Please.
I’m simply describing the situation in Gaza for what it is, Total War. I’m not advocating for it, but I recognize that Israel is going to respond to October 7 as they see fit.
Would you rather I described it in a way that didn’t hurt your fragile sensibilities?
The fact that I described the current situation as “Total war”. Seems to offend you. Should I say both sides are making a “fluffy”, would that make you feel better?
Sorry it’s been a day between posting and responding. On top of that there are a lot of tools in this thread and it hard to keep every conversation straight.
But in short Israel is a sovereign nation whose citizens were just attacked in a large scale well coordinated manner. They have every right to go after the perpetrators. If total war and the leveling of Gaza is what it takes and they have the ability to execute it then so be it.
Sucks to be on the wrong side of history. No one wants to loose their communities, property or livelihoods. However the Jews had a claim to the area going back thousands of years and they needed to go somewhere.
There were many Jewish communities across the Middle East prior to the 1940s that no longer exist anymore either. I wonder who pushed them out… do they get the same sentiment from your bleeding heart?
There have been two state solutions on the table with Jerusalem as the Palestinian capital on the table multiple times. Palestinians turned every one of them down. Instead of building their own state they will be further pushed out of Gaza. Where they go is anyones guess no one wants them, especially other Muslim states.
What’s the ethnic makeup of Israel? What’s the ethnic makeup of Palestine? Which one is closer to the definition of an ethno state? Do words not mean anything to you?
You’re granted citizenship automatically if you’re Jewish and you get a free trip to go there. Being Jewish grants one special privileges. The country is based entirely on ethnicity and was established with that as a core principle. If it’s not technically considered an ethnostate, it’s about the closest that a country can be one without being one in that case.
Might makes right, huh? I already know Palestine will be completely ethnically cleansed and then israel will move onto taking parts of Syria and other countries in their goal of lebensraum. That doesn’t mean it’s morally right.
You either didn’t read my comment from earlier in the thread or you enjoy trying to frame an argument.
I’ll post it below for you to read and educate yourself.
There have been two state solutions on the table with Jerusalem as the Palestinian capital on the table multiple times. Palestinians turned every one of them down. Instead of building their own state they will be further pushed out of Gaza. Where they go is anyones guess no one wants them, especially other Muslim states.
The negotiations were argued in bad faith. Israel would put forth ridiculous demands and then lay the blame on Palestine for rejecting them. Why do you think Palestinians are being pushed out of Gaza and have been continually and constantly pushed out for decades? There was never a sincere effort for a two-state solution.
Nobody wants to take on many refugees all at once, it’s very difficult to manage. Why do you think Britain “volunteered” Palestinian land to relocate Jews out of Europe? It wasn’t out of the goodness of their heart.
Bullshit, there have been multiple attempts at a settlement with regional actors who were sympathetic to the Palestinians. Palestinians turned them all down.
Not a single country in the Middle East has volunteered to take in even a token amount of refugees… Egypt used to control the Sinai and govern that region… nada, zilch, zero refugees allowed to cross into their boarders.
Nobody in the Middle East except Iran wants anything to do with the Palestinians. Iran is only happy to use them to further their regional goals.
Saudi was in the middle of negotiations with Israel before this conflict broke out.
Why is this? Because everyone has tried to negotiate a peace and the Palestinians refuse to come to terms.
Israel is waging total war on Gaza. It’s ugly and civilians will be killed. Nobody is going to stop them because the region wants an end to this conflict one way or another and no one gives a shit about Palestine.
Brutalizing Gaza and driving Hamas out is the only way this is going to be solved.
I wouldn’t support the Nazis, but I’d realize they are going to act in their own self interest and influence the world around them to benefit their society to the best of their ability.
Finland realized it could not win fighting the Soviets and ceded territory for peace. I’d say it worked out well for them.
Palestinians have overplayed their hand for forty years and this latest conflict is just the consequence of their own actions.
Palestine isn’t genociding itself, and they were led by secular moderates until Israel backed Hamas to create the pretext for the genocide they’re now committing. They’ve been relegated to an open-air concentration camp as Israel kills orders of magnitude more Palestinians than Hamas kills Israelis. This is just far-right lunatics creating an ethnostate via genocide - like the Nazis.
The Nazis weren’t about improving society - they wanted to kill multiple groups and suppress the rest. It’s a deeply stupid ideology in addition to being monstrous.
Does your apparent “I think this monstrous bullshit is in my personal self-interest, so it’s justified” principle extend to Hamas attacking Israel? What if I’m homeless hungry and horny - do I get to kill you, take your house, rape your wife and eat your kid? If not, why not?
The Jews were going to end up somewhere after WW2. Their ancestral homeland won out. They also had the backing of major Western powers.
Nations fall and nations rise, such is life. Don’t be on the wrong side of his . Jews all over the Middle East have been pushed out of their communities since Israel was founded. Sucks for them as well, once again don’t be on the wrong side of history.
Israel is gonna wipe out everyone who was currently there, if you don’t like that you’re on the wrong side of history. Understood, all hail lord Netanyahu!
You don’t have to like it. The Palestinians could have made different decisions to prevent the current conflict (like don’t support terrorist organizations who will sneak attack civilians on a holiday as your method of government).
Who the fuck cares about a claim from thousands of years ago? Can you even count how many Greats you would have to add to even reach your goat herder of a grandpa back when Jesus was still around?
This is just trying to revive a dead dream and we all get to suffer for it.
A recent claim is better. I care about the partitioning of the lands with the Sykes Picot Agreement, I don’t care about some inbred king of sandland did back in 147AD.
Wouldn’t this mean that the millions of Israelis born in Israel over the last 80 years probably have the strongest claim to the land (at least the internationally recognized 1967 borders anyway)? 1916 is not particularly recent
Yeah i think a couple of Neanderthals descendants have claims that go back tens of thousands of years. do they get the same sentiment from your bleeding hearth?
Also my cousin has Etruscan blood, should he kick Italians out of Italy as he has a claim that goes back TWO thousands years and he’s got nowhere to go since his wife kicked him out?
So those claims you talked about are just bullshit and it’s just about i want the land and am stronger so I just grab it. Fair enough you could have made it clear sooner so we wouldn’t all waste time pretending. While we are at it putin is also good for you isn’t it?
No Putin and Hamas are cut from the same cloth. Both are aggressors.
I fully support Ukraine and hope we ship them all the weapons they ask for. I hope they regain all the territory they lost and wipe Russia from the map. But at the same time if they are not able to secure the lands they lost I hope they have sense enough to know when to compromise.
The Palestinian leadership has displayed no such common sense as of yet.
Now imagine a civil war begins in the US. Both sides get too weak. And then the Cherokee, Apache, … receive all the military help they need from, let’s say, China. And they start killing “every non Nation person” because “that was our land”. Would you say that’s right and that all and every white/black/Asian person deserve it?
So your blame is on hamas and Gaza for what Israel is doing there? Here’s a question, if there are terrorists hiding under a school or who were hiding in Manhattan or Tel Aviv. Would it be justified to bomb everything like what happened in Gaza?
Well, New York is American soil, if Terrorists were hiding under a building there I hope our government can surgically remove them. I then hope that our government would glass whatever shit hole those terrorists came from.
Tel Aviv is Israelis territory, it’s response is up to their leadership and the will of populace.
Well yea, to be fair if half these Redditors Lemmies lived in the Middle East they would be calling for the genocide of the US after what happened in Afghanistan and Iraq
Maybe Israel shouldn’t fund Hamas over secular orgs to manufacture the pretext for the genocide they’re now committing in order to create an ethnostate.
Funding might be true. But do we have real evidence that it was done precisely for what you described? Did someone specific decided “let’s give them money, so they would build rockets to bomb us, then invade to kill our citizens in an attack we’ll be unprepared for and then have all the right to obliterate them and nobody would stop us”?
Incredibly loaded framing aside, what’s your explanation for Israel backing a Jihadist group, and helping them displace moderate, secular alternatives while consistently using genocidal language and displacing Palestinians?
I’d say it’s not loaded framing on my side, but convoluted assumptions (and possibly clairvoyance) on the other.
I may not have the explanation of why “Israel funded hamas”, but I know that half the world funded Palestine for years, and that most of that help naturally must’ve went through hamas.
Simply put, it doesn’t seem like Israel could avoid funding Palestine. Hamas could’ve put that money in improving lives of citizens.
Israel put a terrorist org that’s hostile to them in neighbouring territories they’re trying to ethnically cleanse via genocide and you can’t figure it why? I suppose critical thought was never fascists’ strong suit.
International funding went to Palestinians via aid orgs - not Hamas. That said, anything that did go to Hamas was because Israel put them in power - you don’t get to put terrorists in power, commit war crimes, then whine when the international community sends aid to the people you’re genociding. Israel is also a recipient of $3.8 billion dollars every year in US military support alone - that’s comparable to the total amount of internal aid sent to Palestine between 2014 and 2020.
The problem isn’t Israel funding Palestine - it’s with them funding a terrorist group to put them in power, removing the secular moderates that were in place already… You know - so they could justify the genocide they’ve been loudly telegraphing they want to commit.
You don’t get to play the victim on this one, Jitler.
it’s with them funding a terrorist group to put them in power
And I thought it was Palestinians who chose hamas during elections. The other candidate was also a terrorist group if I’m not mistaken though, so really don’t see how complicated the plan of Israel should’ve been for everything to play out exactly as it had.
so they could justify the genocide they’ve been loudly telegraphing they want to commit.
So basically the plan was “Kill us, so we could kill you” all along, huh? This is some flat earth level conspiracy.
Hamas is a terrorist org that Israel backed to replace the secular moderates - this isn’t half as complex as the narrative knots you idiots tie yourselves in to defend the genocide - in not sure why you’re finding this difficult.
So basically the plan was “Kill us, so we could kill you” all along, huh? This is some flat earth level conspiracy.
They’ve been signalling genocidal intent for years, but can’t just do it without losing the US backing they need to not get obliterated by their neighbours. Why else did they help the hostile jihadists over the secular moderates? Again, really straightforward stuff.
Meanwhile, you use Nazi-tier logic to defend Nazi-tier actions.
First, the whole matter of some country being able to affect political groups in another country being normal, as you’re saying about it, is more than lousy to say the least. Israel did not create hamas. Israel could not know how it will act over the years. Israel could not know who will win the elections.
Second, proposing the idea that a modern non-jihad government would put their own population at risk of terrorist attacks in order to have a chance to do genocide of other population is ridiculous.
Third, if the “second” thing above is incorrect, they would instead fiddle with the iron dome. More specifically, there would be no iron dome in the first place - they would take all the rocket hits they could in order to show the world how aggressive terrorists are and invade Gaza asap.
you use Nazi-tier logic to defend Nazi-tier actions.
I don’t know what to say here. What nazi-tier even means is beyond me. But you here basically operate with extremes like every actor does exactly what they are programmed to do. It seems to me that even if some investigation will conclude that Israel, in fact, did not intent to fund any specific group, you’ll still find new twists in order to make Israel guilty of what hamas did.
Ok so you’re against Israel providing work permits to Palestinians?
Hamas was also included in discussions about increasing the number of work permits Israel granted to Gazan laborers, which kept money flowing into Gaza, meaning food for families and the ability to purchase basic products.
From one of your articles, they’re literally complaining that Israel allows Palestinians to have jobs in Israel and saying that this practice of not totally starving out Palestine is proping up Hamas.
Since Netanyahu returned to power in January 2023, the number of work permits has soared to nearly 20,000.
The article is angry at him for something you almost certainly use the opposite of as a reason to call it an apartheid state or open air prison or whatever, this is something you surely think should happen right? Palestinians should be able to work in Israel, right?
They go on to talk about how he shouldn’t be letting aid money into Gaza, etc
And do you agree with this from the article?
One thing is clear: The concept of indirectly strengthening Hamas — while tolerating sporadic attacks and minor military operations every few years — went up in smoke Saturday.
They argue that anything less than total military destruction of Hamas is equivalent to support, they want a boodier and more brutal war which is why they’re saying the claim in the headline - surely you don’t agree with that? Surely you don’t think that Israel shouldn’t let aid into Gaza and should attack more violently? Therefore surely you don’t agree with the claim in the title.
You’re parroting headlines without reading the article, probably because you’ve heard the claim repeated by so many people who also didn’t bother to read the article and just assumed it validated their existing view.
Ok so you’re against Israel providing work permits to Palestinians?
I’m against apartheid states that requires people of ‘undesirable’ ethnicity get work permits.
And do you agree with this from the article?
Yes - Israel has done away with sporadic attacks and launched into a more rapid genocidal approach.
Imagine defending an apartheid state committing a genocide, pointing to the apartheid to say there’s not apartheid, and rapid escalation in indiscriminate killing to say there’s not genocide.
You’ve purposely tried to redirect the topic to avoid the very clear fact that the conspiracy theory claim you made is based on them doing things that you think they should be doing.
You just spoke about the current conflict as worse than what was happening previously, the article you used up back up your conspiracy theory that Israel created Hamas is based on the argument they should have had a similar reaction sooner and that it should be more extreme.
You say genocide which I presume you count as starting before this current conflict and is based on the flimsy arguement they don’t let enough aid though, etc but you also want to use the flimsy arguement that they’re letting too much aid through which is propping up a terrorist organisation.
The reality that you don’t rely know or care about what you’re talking about is very clear, you’re throwing around buzzwords and meme talking points you haven’t even thought about and have no idea of how they relate to the wider situation. You’ve decided your team thinks Israel is bad and you’re on a quest to amplify that because you feel it will make you look like a passionate and intellectual person - unfortunately these hamfisted and empty arguments you’re making just make you look like a gullible blowhard.
The genocide that Israel is talking about pretty transparently as they indiscriminately bomb the shit out of civilians is a conspiracy - you got it, Jitler.
So your original claim? You’ve forgotten about that and your not going to respond to anything I’ve said but will continue to throw out emotive but meaningless statements?
Maybe Hamas shouldn’t start shit.
except the israelis were the ones starting shit 7 decades ago
hamas is just a convenient excuse for genocide
deleted by creator
which side is really refusing negotiations: the ones getting armed by the biggest military power in the planet, with the intention of ethnic cleansing, or the ones getting their country leveled fighting with improvised bombs?
Hamas is holding Palestine hostage, they haven’t had elections in how long? Netanyahu is basically the George W Bush of Israel, curating the current situation in order to create the theatre of war. Meanwhile there are some ridiculously powerful Arab countries right next door who talk a lot of shit about Israel but curiously won’t lift a finger to aid Palestine. Why is that?
The leaders on both sides are at fault. And their neighbours leaders. And world leaders. We need everyday people to stand up to this populist war mongering bullshit. Fuck the nepo babies who inherit their positions of power and influence - if we don’t say something now we’re all doomed.
Hamas has called for elections numerous times in the last decades. Israel and the US’s client government in the west bank, the Palestinian authority, refuses because they recognize that they will lose. Hamas is at no fault. As a resistance organization they are of the utmost moral standing. They engaged in symmetric military combat with the Israeli military in a textbook act of honorable military resistance when they had no obligation to. They display humaneness towards Israeli colonizers that defies all the brutality that Israel has visited upon the Palestinian people. This is a war against colonialism and imperialism. The belligerents in this war are the united states and Israel. What needs to happen is that they are defeated.
Fuck the Israeli government with a cactus, but that doesn’t mean Hamas is anything other than horrible. Groups of “the utmost moral standing” don’t seek out civilian casualties or rape women in the street or accept funding from the Israeli government to keep the “war” (oppression and genocide of Palestinians) going as long as possible
The reality is they did not target civilians, they only targetted soldiers and policemen, and they did not rape anyone on the 7th of October. The first point is corroborated by the testimonies of the Israelis in kibbutz be’eri who said the fighters did not harm them but asked them to call the police. In addition to the testimonies that the IDF shelled homes with their inhabitants and fighters inside, fired from helicopters onto the music festival, and shot their own citizens while trying to target qassam fighters, and the casualty figures reported by Israel itself, where 200, half of the burned unidentified bodies turned out to be Palestinians, its evident that Israel caused the overwhelming majority of civilian deaths on 7/10.
The rape and sexual assault allegations are completely uncorroborated to this day, not even one testimony or piece of evidence supports them.
This is not to imply that Palestinian resistance would be wrong to target Israeli “civilian” settlers, they would not. Settlers are active participants and beneficiaries of violence, murder, oppression, and ethnic cleansing. The social order where their comfortable lives depend on Palestinian death and subjugation must be upended. For the oppressed to inflict violence on their colonizers is for them to assert their humanity.
They literally posted videos of it, the fuck are you talking about? Hamas is a piece of shit terrorist dictatorship that Israel supports and allows to exist as an excuse to keep killing Palestinian civilians. Btw the “they don’t want to be in power but nobody will let them step down” bullshit is very tired and very obviously bullshit, you sound like a tankie trying to explain how Stalin wasn’t a dictator. Hamas isn’t fighting for the people, they’re tin pot tyrants with suitcases full of money from their supposed enemy, a convenient excuse for Israel to drive out and kill everyone in Gaza. Hamas is a pawn in Netanyahu’s game, if you hate zionism you should hate Hamas too
Points to the October attack on Israel.
Total war on Gaza looks pretty damn justified to me.
Ah yes. History began on October 7th. There is no context to anything involving anything prior to October 7th 2023.
Although even looking at just October 7th and what has happened since… kind of elucidates what the fuck has been going on.
Hell even 7 decades ago Einstein was looking at what was just starting and went “Well this is some Nazi shit.”
deleted by creator
Saying “this section of the planet belongs to a specific race because they’re fractionally descended from one of the people that lived there a long time ago” is dumb as fuck. Modern people have 0 connection to Jews that long ago and most modern Israeli Jews aren’t actually ethnically similar to Jews thousands of years ago, most Israelis are primarily European descendant or other non-Palestinian descendant.
Modern Israelis are not the same group as the various historical groups referred to as “Jews”. Your logic is flawed.
Just a slight correction; something like 60 percent of modern Israelis are Mizrahi, meaning they are from the Middle East and have no European ancestry or connection to Europe. Ethnically they are very similar to the Palestinians and if you put them together in a mixed group, you probably wouldn’t be able to tell them apart based on appearance alone.
There’s also no reason to think that Mizrahi Jews aren’t largely descended from the ancient Jewish population since wherever they’ve lived in the Middle East, they’ve never been fully integrated and have always been pretty insular. Most scholars think that the same is true to a lesser extent of Ashkenazi Jews as well, though obviously they have a lot more European ancestry.
That’s all Israelis including non-Jews afaik, when we specify Israeli Jews the number is allegedly at least 50-60% being of mainly European descent.
The more reasonable and manageable timeframe might be closer to living generations currently in existence.
The hyperbole kind of misses its intended mark when itself misses the context of a call for context.
Derp a derp
200 dead from a terrorist attack committed by terrorists justifies 20,000 civilian deaths by carpet bombing and levelling entire communities?
If Hamas is wiped out then yes, that is what total war is.
If Hamas really cared for the people under its authority, it would not have attacked nor would it use them as human shields.
hamas is a terrorist organization that does not encapsulate all Palestinians. That’d be like killing everyone in the US to dispose of the KKK.
Don’t threaten me with a good time
yea it’d almost be like, if the kkk was the government
Here’s a more apt analogy: It’d be like killing everyone in North Korea to get Kim Jong Un and pals
“Points to the GOP”
Total war is not just an abstract political move, it’s an immense suffering and deaths of dozens of thousands of civilians.
It’s easy to play political mastermind from the safety and comfort of your home. People who witnessed war know full well what it entails, and they know it’s not just numbers and maps and politics.
It’s blood. It’s broken families. It’s famine. It’s the destruction of everything they valued. It’s PTSD for just about everyone who managed to survive.
Think twice before saying things like that. Please.
I’m simply describing the situation in Gaza for what it is, Total War. I’m not advocating for it, but I recognize that Israel is going to respond to October 7 as they see fit.
Would you rather I described it in a way that didn’t hurt your fragile sensibilities?
You claim “total war is justified”. I say it’s pretty much never justified.
What kind of fragile sensibilities are you talking about here?
The fact that I described the current situation as “Total war”. Seems to offend you. Should I say both sides are making a “fluffy”, would that make you feel better?
Nope, you ignored my last message.
You said, and I cite you here: “Total war on Gaza looks pretty damn justified to me.”
This is total war, yes, wholeheartedly agreed here. It is not justified in any way, shape or form.
Sorry it’s been a day between posting and responding. On top of that there are a lot of tools in this thread and it hard to keep every conversation straight.
But in short Israel is a sovereign nation whose citizens were just attacked in a large scale well coordinated manner. They have every right to go after the perpetrators. If total war and the leveling of Gaza is what it takes and they have the ability to execute it then so be it.
missed the /s?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba
Sucks to be on the wrong side of history. No one wants to loose their communities, property or livelihoods. However the Jews had a claim to the area going back thousands of years and they needed to go somewhere.
There were many Jewish communities across the Middle East prior to the 1940s that no longer exist anymore either. I wonder who pushed them out… do they get the same sentiment from your bleeding heart?
There have been two state solutions on the table with Jerusalem as the Palestinian capital on the table multiple times. Palestinians turned every one of them down. Instead of building their own state they will be further pushed out of Gaza. Where they go is anyones guess no one wants them, especially other Muslim states.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-state_solution
That’s funny that you think you’re on the right side of history for supporting a genocidal ethnostate.
What’s the ethnic makeup of Israel? What’s the ethnic makeup of Palestine? Which one is closer to the definition of an ethno state? Do words not mean anything to you?
You’re granted citizenship automatically if you’re Jewish and you get a free trip to go there. Being Jewish grants one special privileges. The country is based entirely on ethnicity and was established with that as a core principle. If it’s not technically considered an ethnostate, it’s about the closest that a country can be one without being one in that case.
I guess we’ll see in 50 years which nation still exists.
Looks at all of Palestine’s immediate neighbors in the Middle East who won’t even lift a finger to even admit refugees.
I think I know where I’ll put my money.
Might makes right, huh? I already know Palestine will be completely ethnically cleansed and then israel will move onto taking parts of Syria and other countries in their goal of lebensraum. That doesn’t mean it’s morally right.
You either didn’t read my comment from earlier in the thread or you enjoy trying to frame an argument.
I’ll post it below for you to read and educate yourself.
There have been two state solutions on the table with Jerusalem as the Palestinian capital on the table multiple times. Palestinians turned every one of them down. Instead of building their own state they will be further pushed out of Gaza. Where they go is anyones guess no one wants them, especially other Muslim states.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-state_solution
TLDR: Palestine will be wiped of the map unless they choose a different path. Israel isn’t going anywhere.
The negotiations were argued in bad faith. Israel would put forth ridiculous demands and then lay the blame on Palestine for rejecting them. Why do you think Palestinians are being pushed out of Gaza and have been continually and constantly pushed out for decades? There was never a sincere effort for a two-state solution.
Nobody wants to take on many refugees all at once, it’s very difficult to manage. Why do you think Britain “volunteered” Palestinian land to relocate Jews out of Europe? It wasn’t out of the goodness of their heart.
No response to this of course. Don’t even expect one. They are currently with their fingers in their ears yelling “LALALLALALALA”
Bullshit, there have been multiple attempts at a settlement with regional actors who were sympathetic to the Palestinians. Palestinians turned them all down.
Not a single country in the Middle East has volunteered to take in even a token amount of refugees… Egypt used to control the Sinai and govern that region… nada, zilch, zero refugees allowed to cross into their boarders.
Nobody in the Middle East except Iran wants anything to do with the Palestinians. Iran is only happy to use them to further their regional goals.
Saudi was in the middle of negotiations with Israel before this conflict broke out.
Why is this? Because everyone has tried to negotiate a peace and the Palestinians refuse to come to terms.
Israel is waging total war on Gaza. It’s ugly and civilians will be killed. Nobody is going to stop them because the region wants an end to this conflict one way or another and no one gives a shit about Palestine.
Brutalizing Gaza and driving Hamas out is the only way this is going to be solved.
So if the Nazis won WWII, you’d support them? You’ve already made it clear you’re willing to support far-right genocidal ethnostates.
I wouldn’t support the Nazis, but I’d realize they are going to act in their own self interest and influence the world around them to benefit their society to the best of their ability.
Finland realized it could not win fighting the Soviets and ceded territory for peace. I’d say it worked out well for them.
Palestinians have overplayed their hand for forty years and this latest conflict is just the consequence of their own actions.
Palestine isn’t genociding itself, and they were led by secular moderates until Israel backed Hamas to create the pretext for the genocide they’re now committing. They’ve been relegated to an open-air concentration camp as Israel kills orders of magnitude more Palestinians than Hamas kills Israelis. This is just far-right lunatics creating an ethnostate via genocide - like the Nazis.
The Nazis weren’t about improving society - they wanted to kill multiple groups and suppress the rest. It’s a deeply stupid ideology in addition to being monstrous.
Does your apparent “I think this monstrous bullshit is in my personal self-interest, so it’s justified” principle extend to Hamas attacking Israel? What if I’m homeless hungry and horny - do I get to kill you, take your house, rape your wife and eat your kid? If not, why not?
Israel hasn’t existed for a long ass time until the last century, shouldn’t that be evidence that Jewish people don’t belong there by your logic?
The Jews were going to end up somewhere after WW2. Their ancestral homeland won out. They also had the backing of major Western powers.
Nations fall and nations rise, such is life. Don’t be on the wrong side of his . Jews all over the Middle East have been pushed out of their communities since Israel was founded. Sucks for them as well, once again don’t be on the wrong side of history.
Blood and soil? Rudolph Jitler shit.
No just real politik. Nations and people act in their own self interest and influence the world around them to the best of their abilities.
Facism is just stupid.
Israel is gonna wipe out everyone who was currently there, if you don’t like that you’re on the wrong side of history. Understood, all hail lord Netanyahu!
You don’t have to like it. The Palestinians could have made different decisions to prevent the current conflict (like don’t support terrorist organizations who will sneak attack civilians on a holiday as your method of government).
Who the fuck cares about a claim from thousands of years ago? Can you even count how many Greats you would have to add to even reach your goat herder of a grandpa back when Jesus was still around?
This is just trying to revive a dead dream and we all get to suffer for it.
That’s what drives me crazy about dated religions and ultra nationalism. We could have flying cars if people stopped with this shit
I don’t really get the logic: is an older claim or a more recent claim to land “more valid”?
A recent claim is better. I care about the partitioning of the lands with the Sykes Picot Agreement, I don’t care about some inbred king of sandland did back in 147AD.
Wouldn’t this mean that the millions of Israelis born in Israel over the last 80 years probably have the strongest claim to the land (at least the internationally recognized 1967 borders anyway)? 1916 is not particularly recent
Yeah i think a couple of Neanderthals descendants have claims that go back tens of thousands of years. do they get the same sentiment from your bleeding hearth?
Also my cousin has Etruscan blood, should he kick Italians out of Italy as he has a claim that goes back TWO thousands years and he’s got nowhere to go since his wife kicked him out?
Maybe check your fireplace if it’s bleeding.
Does your friend have superior weaponry and the backing of major world powers? If no then he should probably live in peace in modern unified Italy.
So those claims you talked about are just bullshit and it’s just about i want the land and am stronger so I just grab it. Fair enough you could have made it clear sooner so we wouldn’t all waste time pretending. While we are at it putin is also good for you isn’t it?
No Putin and Hamas are cut from the same cloth. Both are aggressors.
I fully support Ukraine and hope we ship them all the weapons they ask for. I hope they regain all the territory they lost and wipe Russia from the map. But at the same time if they are not able to secure the lands they lost I hope they have sense enough to know when to compromise.
The Palestinian leadership has displayed no such common sense as of yet.
Now imagine a civil war begins in the US. Both sides get too weak. And then the Cherokee, Apache, … receive all the military help they need from, let’s say, China. And they start killing “every non Nation person” because “that was our land”. Would you say that’s right and that all and every white/black/Asian person deserve it?
I’ll take “Imaginary things that will never happen” for $500 Alex.
The story doesn’t start on oct 7th.
But the current chapter does. Gaza would look a lot different today if the October 7th attack had not happened.
Shit it would look like a fucking paradise if they had taken one of the many two state solution deals they were offered.
This shit has been planned for a long time. Here’s just one example of the plan being shown out in the open before october 7th: https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/netanyahu-brandishes-map-of-israel-that-includes-west-bank-and-gaza-at-un-speech/
All they needed was a “justification” to ramp up their ethnic cleansing and genocide.
So your blame is on hamas and Gaza for what Israel is doing there? Here’s a question, if there are terrorists hiding under a school or who were hiding in Manhattan or Tel Aviv. Would it be justified to bomb everything like what happened in Gaza?
Well, New York is American soil, if Terrorists were hiding under a building there I hope our government can surgically remove them. I then hope that our government would glass whatever shit hole those terrorists came from.
Tel Aviv is Israelis territory, it’s response is up to their leadership and the will of populace.
…Just make sure not to pay any attention to Netanyahu’s approval rating.
You apply this principle consistently and argue Hitler did nothing wrong because the German public supported his actions, right?
Hot take, but I think genocide is bad, personally.
By your logic, the Innocents killed on 9/11 brought it on themselves.
Well yea, to be fair if half these
RedditorsLemmies lived in the Middle East they would be calling for the genocide of the US after what happened in Afghanistan and IraqThe United States created the conditions for the blowback that resulted in the 9/11 attacks
selfawarewolf?
american war on taliban was the well accepted result. israels war on gazians… same.
Wow that is some amazing mental gymnastics there. I sure do hope you don’t strain yourself with all those logical fallacies you are jumping through.
Maybe Israel shouldn’t fund Hamas over secular orgs to manufacture the pretext for the genocide they’re now committing in order to create an ethnostate.
Funding might be true. But do we have real evidence that it was done precisely for what you described? Did someone specific decided “let’s give them money, so they would build rockets to bomb us, then invade to kill our citizens in an attack we’ll be unprepared for and then have all the right to obliterate them and nobody would stop us”?
Incredibly loaded framing aside, what’s your explanation for Israel backing a Jihadist group, and helping them displace moderate, secular alternatives while consistently using genocidal language and displacing Palestinians?
I’d say it’s not loaded framing on my side, but convoluted assumptions (and possibly clairvoyance) on the other.
I may not have the explanation of why “Israel funded hamas”, but I know that half the world funded Palestine for years, and that most of that help naturally must’ve went through hamas.
Simply put, it doesn’t seem like Israel could avoid funding Palestine. Hamas could’ve put that money in improving lives of citizens.
Israel put a terrorist org that’s hostile to them in neighbouring territories they’re trying to ethnically cleanse via genocide and you can’t figure it why? I suppose critical thought was never fascists’ strong suit.
International funding went to Palestinians via aid orgs - not Hamas. That said, anything that did go to Hamas was because Israel put them in power - you don’t get to put terrorists in power, commit war crimes, then whine when the international community sends aid to the people you’re genociding. Israel is also a recipient of $3.8 billion dollars every year in US military support alone - that’s comparable to the total amount of internal aid sent to Palestine between 2014 and 2020.
The problem isn’t Israel funding Palestine - it’s with them funding a terrorist group to put them in power, removing the secular moderates that were in place already… You know - so they could justify the genocide they’ve been loudly telegraphing they want to commit.
You don’t get to play the victim on this one, Jitler.
What?
And I thought it was Palestinians who chose hamas during elections. The other candidate was also a terrorist group if I’m not mistaken though, so really don’t see how complicated the plan of Israel should’ve been for everything to play out exactly as it had.
So basically the plan was “Kill us, so we could kill you” all along, huh? This is some flat earth level conspiracy.
Hamas is a terrorist org that Israel backed to replace the secular moderates - this isn’t half as complex as the narrative knots you idiots tie yourselves in to defend the genocide - in not sure why you’re finding this difficult.
They’ve been signalling genocidal intent for years, but can’t just do it without losing the US backing they need to not get obliterated by their neighbours. Why else did they help the hostile jihadists over the secular moderates? Again, really straightforward stuff.
Meanwhile, you use Nazi-tier logic to defend Nazi-tier actions.
First, the whole matter of some country being able to affect political groups in another country being normal, as you’re saying about it, is more than lousy to say the least. Israel did not create hamas. Israel could not know how it will act over the years. Israel could not know who will win the elections.
Second, proposing the idea that a modern non-jihad government would put their own population at risk of terrorist attacks in order to have a chance to do genocide of other population is ridiculous.
Third, if the “second” thing above is incorrect, they would instead fiddle with the iron dome. More specifically, there would be no iron dome in the first place - they would take all the rocket hits they could in order to show the world how aggressive terrorists are and invade Gaza asap.
I don’t know what to say here. What nazi-tier even means is beyond me. But you here basically operate with extremes like every actor does exactly what they are programmed to do. It seems to me that even if some investigation will conclude that Israel, in fact, did not intent to fund any specific group, you’ll still find new twists in order to make Israel guilty of what hamas did.
Do you know that’s a baseless conspiracy you’re pedaling?
Yeah - nah.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2014/07/30/how-israel-helped-create-hamas/
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/10/world/middleeast/israel-qatar-money-prop-up-hamas.html
https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/
Plenty of credible news outlets are reporting that one. It’s not a remotely controversial statement.
Ok so you’re against Israel providing work permits to Palestinians?
From one of your articles, they’re literally complaining that Israel allows Palestinians to have jobs in Israel and saying that this practice of not totally starving out Palestine is proping up Hamas.
The article is angry at him for something you almost certainly use the opposite of as a reason to call it an apartheid state or open air prison or whatever, this is something you surely think should happen right? Palestinians should be able to work in Israel, right?
They go on to talk about how he shouldn’t be letting aid money into Gaza, etc
And do you agree with this from the article?
They argue that anything less than total military destruction of Hamas is equivalent to support, they want a boodier and more brutal war which is why they’re saying the claim in the headline - surely you don’t agree with that? Surely you don’t think that Israel shouldn’t let aid into Gaza and should attack more violently? Therefore surely you don’t agree with the claim in the title.
You’re parroting headlines without reading the article, probably because you’ve heard the claim repeated by so many people who also didn’t bother to read the article and just assumed it validated their existing view.
I’m against apartheid states that requires people of ‘undesirable’ ethnicity get work permits.
Yes - Israel has done away with sporadic attacks and launched into a more rapid genocidal approach.
Imagine defending an apartheid state committing a genocide, pointing to the apartheid to say there’s not apartheid, and rapid escalation in indiscriminate killing to say there’s not genocide.
You’ve purposely tried to redirect the topic to avoid the very clear fact that the conspiracy theory claim you made is based on them doing things that you think they should be doing.
You just spoke about the current conflict as worse than what was happening previously, the article you used up back up your conspiracy theory that Israel created Hamas is based on the argument they should have had a similar reaction sooner and that it should be more extreme.
You say genocide which I presume you count as starting before this current conflict and is based on the flimsy arguement they don’t let enough aid though, etc but you also want to use the flimsy arguement that they’re letting too much aid through which is propping up a terrorist organisation.
The reality that you don’t rely know or care about what you’re talking about is very clear, you’re throwing around buzzwords and meme talking points you haven’t even thought about and have no idea of how they relate to the wider situation. You’ve decided your team thinks Israel is bad and you’re on a quest to amplify that because you feel it will make you look like a passionate and intellectual person - unfortunately these hamfisted and empty arguments you’re making just make you look like a gullible blowhard.
The genocide that Israel is talking about pretty transparently as they indiscriminately bomb the shit out of civilians is a conspiracy - you got it, Jitler.
So your original claim? You’ve forgotten about that and your not going to respond to anything I’ve said but will continue to throw out emotive but meaningless statements?
Maybe you shouldn’t talk shit
Oooo internet tough guy.
Removed by mod
Thats it, shut it down people, we’ve gone full circle. Israel is killing its own people by killing the people who want to kill them…
Your mental gymnastics deserve a gold medal for that performance.