for the record, like almost all big classic sci-fi, these books (dune) are remarkably bigoted and reductive. i still like space stories and political intrigue tho.

alt text: Trade Offer from Sand Worm Leto Atreides. You receive: 4000 years of planet bound subjugation. Spice, eventually. Famine. Sex ninjas from outer space. Golden Path… I recieve: Like 70 something Duncan Idahos. Gentle Hwi.

    • @[email protected]
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      3010 months ago

      Yeah, later books seem like Frank Herbert was way too obsessed with sex. The idea of Honored Maitres as using sex to control humans seemed pretty misogynistic, even at the time (yes, eventually there was a guy, too). Still, I think the whole “put humanity in a pressure cooker so they explode outwards when the lid is gone” concept was pretty thought-provoking. Also the Siona project; if prescience is a real thing in that universe, it can be studied and understood, then weaponized. How do you defend against an enemy that knows where and when you’ll be?

      • @A_Union_of_Kobolds
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        2110 months ago

        I’m reading Chapterhouse right now and my God Frank has some real sexual issues doesn’t he? I thought the Idaho gholas in God-Emperor were weird enough.

        Still, as a critique on power structures, Dune as a whole is phenomenal

        • Dr. Bob
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          1010 months ago

          May I introduce you to John Norman and the wholesome little planet of Gor?

          • @[email protected]
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            10 months ago

            Jesus, i bought one of those from a little book store years ago because “cool cover!”

            I remember that I was making small talk with the clerk/owner and said something like “this book looks rad!” And he gave me one of those slightly long “suuurree” replies.

            I was maybe 30 pages in later and just put it down. “Really fucked up misogyny as a civilization” aint exactly a great genre.

            • Dr. Bob
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              10 months ago

              Or is it the best genre?

              Don’t look for a film adaptation any time soon.

              eta: I went to look Gor up in wikipedia and Holy Shit! He’s still publishing them as ebooks! #38 is coming out this year.

      • @[email protected]
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        1810 months ago

        It gets overlooked today, but Barron Harkonnen is a gay stereotype. Overlooked because gay men being hyperviolent is a stereotype that’s long died out, but it was a thing.

        Dune starts in a weird place and it gets weirder as it goes.

        • @L3mmyW1nks
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          110 months ago

          IIRC, Frank Herbert very explicitly described how Leto II was applying homosexuality to his Fish Speakers in order to keep control over the violent traits common for any army. Luckily, it was just a few pages of it.
          Then in the last book he started writing about Space Jews and I got a little frightened where that might end up…

    • @SzethFriendOfNimi
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      2810 months ago

      Absolutely but it still kinda fits with the story.

      Mankind, all the eggs in one basket.

      Some evil is coming… and mankind just tends to want to congregate

      So… what they need is a truly horrible despot whose influence and power is so absolute that once they’re free of him they’ll disperse and never look back.

      So… yeah… it makes a kind of odd sense… still bonkers though

      • @[email protected]
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        1610 months ago

        Yes, “teach them a lesson they’ll feel in their bones.” Although I thought the focus of being a despot, along with the Scattering, was to teach a humanity a lesson about avoiding the “Pharaonic Disease”; to reject authoritarians.

        • @Stamau123
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          810 months ago

          That was one of the points, yes. The lives of almost all humans in the galaxy were reduced to the same conditions, and put under ever increasing authoritarianism, that they would all break at once and forever have a shared hatred for despots.

        • @SzethFriendOfNimi
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          310 months ago

          You’re right. I can’t remember if was also to drive them away or if I just misremembered that. It’s been a bit since I last read them

        • Uriel238 [all pronouns]
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          110 months ago

          Curiously this was an objective of the French Reign of Terror, to create consequences for an oppressive ruling class so dire it would make tyranny unthinkable. It didn’t work in the short term (as demonstrated by the recurring piles of heads when the aristocracy forgot about the last batch.)

          Of course, French history doesn’t have oracles, but the Hellenists did, and still nobody listened to Cassandra.