I agree. Militant meat eaters are just as annoying as cliché vegans but there seem to be more of the former.
Reducing meat consumption is probably the best way to go for most people (I’ve reduced mine because of my vegetarian wife and don’t feel like I miss anything) but eating strictly vegan doesn’t seem right to me. Anything that requires supplementation in the long run cannot be the final answer.
Anything that requires supplementation in the long run cannot be the final answer.
Not trying to start an argument with you, you do you, but are you aware that most factory farmed animals are supplemented with B12? Meat and dairy consumers are taking supplements, just indirectly.
Also, anybody living in cloudy areas (North Europe, North US, Canada, etc) should be taking vitamin D supplements anyway, meat eater or vegan.
Not sure what’s worse though: cheap meat or ultra-processed vegan meat alternatives
There was a big news story in the UK last year about “the end of veganism”, which was pretty funny. Basically they were watching the cheap vegan processed shit drop heavily in sales. As people get more comfortable with the diet, they tend to get more whole foods and cook tofu/seitan/peas/etc for their protein, which led to a drop in sales of trash.
Militant meat eaters are just as annoying as cliché vegans but there seem to be more of the former.
I eat meat from time to time, so definitely not even vegetarian, but I’ve absolutely run into more offended meat eaters than vegans IRL, but meat at dinner is a big part of my home country’s culture.
I remember my sisters’ boyfriend fuming, thinking we were trolling him by not having meat at a family dinner. The meat eating mind cannot comprehend.
Literally the only strictly necessary supplement for vegans is b12, and if you understand the science of b12, then you know that you either should be supplementing it anyway, or you’re just rolling the dice.
By contrast there are entire whole-food plant-based communities who routinely report the near-miraculous benefits they gain after adopting the diet, such as cholesterol levels that aren’t deadly.
there are entire whole-food plant-based communities who routinely report the near-miraculous benefits they gain after adopting the diet, such as cholesterol levels that aren’t deadly.
That is a far more complex topic than just meat consumption though. People don’t just go vegan but completely change their diet and actually look at what they consume.
I’ve never had high cholesterol even back when I ate meat daily. Always ate lots of salads and veggies though and didn’t snack sugary shit all day.
They absolutely do. Endless repetitions of the same tired jokes, unprompted self justifications, odd assumptions. Happens all the time. They take offense at the sheer mention you are a vegetarian or vegan, you dont even have to try to convert them. Just be there, rejecting meat on your plate during dinner.
I try to be very tolerant of the unprompted self-justifications and maybe just ask a couple questions about it. At some level they feel a change is warranted, and humans change their minds messily over years, not instantly during arguments.
Yeah, I mean they are not fooling anyone, if they bring the topic up on their own trying to tell me why they eat meat it is quite obvious they have a guilty conscience and are trying to justify it to themselves more than me.
Your approach is a lot more conciliatory though, I am usually so annoyed that I just question why they are so defensive they are telling me those things unprompted.
If you are not preaching and you get those reactions, like I said elsewhere those people are then assholes. It goes both directions of course. You have the right to make your own choices, but telling others what they should do while acting smug then it’s a different matter.
Yeah I am the only vegan I know and I don’t get shit about it from anyone. In fact, my friends and family are very supportive. If people are going after someone for being vegetarian/vegan, they are exceptionally rude and by no means represent meat-eaters in general.
I am sympathetic to the commentors who are being given a hard time for their diet but that is not a universal experience and pretending otherwise is not going to help anyone.
They do in my experience. I’ve never once criticized someone else for eating meat, but I get made fun of a lot for looking for vegetarian/vegan options.
If you just order food without going all “am actually vegan” just to let everyone know and people still make fun of you… then those people are assholes. No one should be judged on their own choices.
Unfortunately, it’s super common. When it comes to my family, they stopped rubbing my face in it once I stood up for myself, which is nice. I had to publicly call out my brother for behaving towards me the way he imagines vegans do before he fully stopped. I have friends who I enjoy the company of, I play board games and tabletop RPGs with them. If I’m round at their place and they’re cooking, sometimes they go into a tirade about how being a vegan is terrible and I have to politely ask them to stop because I’m there to enjoy their company, not defend my eating practices.
It’s thankfully gotten less common, but I honestly think that the whole “angry vegan” stereotype caused them to get on the offensive immediately, expecting a big verbal showdown. I think it’s also this perception of “you think you’re better than me, huh?”.
Now that people know what to expect, sometimes they have questions about why not dairy, or why not eggs. I’m happy to answer those questions, but I’ve never gone into the topic of my own accord.
They are just assholes. It’s not that difficult to make vegan food, they just don’t want to go out of their way to make some for you. I have bunch of vegan and vegetarian friends. Vegans are definitely harder to make food for, but if we are making some food, they better help out if with nothing else with advice or recipes. But I’ve never found it difficult to prepare extra meal or two. It’s just them being lazy.
they just don’t want to go out of their way to make some for you
But that’s the thing, they do. They just also supplement that with a healthy dose of their opinion. These people aren’t assholes (specifically my friends, there are of course assholes in every group), they just naturally get very defensive because I’m a walking contradiction to a few of their deeply held beliefs.
Well, black sheep always get that treatment and not only because of food. Doing anything different than what crowd expects will give you weird gazes. Though, I don’t understand the part where you need to get the lecture every time if they don’t mind making food for you. Either do it or don’t.
My MIL went full plant based (vegan but also only raw or minimally processed foods, doesn’t even eat tofu or olive oil if she can avoid it) after watching some documentary on Netflix and it is her entire personality now, including trying to force it on my wife I who already eat vegetarian 95% of the time (everything at home is vegetarian, occasionally eat meat out if none of the vegetarian options sound good) primarily for environmental and health reasons. Every time we visit her she makes some snide and not even veiled remarks about us still occasionally eating meat and still eating dairy, her favorite is referring to any sort of cheese as “congealed cow puss”.
She also 100% believes it can cure diabetes, Alzheimers, dementia, and cancer in a matter of months and that meat and dairy cause autism.
Eh. I lived in a place that has a lot of vegans and know a lot of them. In reality I think only a small percentage of vegans do this. But the ones who do are the most vocal, and the most likely to have negative interactions with non-vegans.
I’m in the same boat with a lot of commenters here, of trying to reduce my consumption for ethical reasons. Throughout my life I’ve tried being vegan and I’ve tried being vegetarian and always failed and now am just minimizing and it’s working very well for me.
Nonetheless, that picture gave me a chuckle. Life’s a ride, might as well have as good a time as possible and that usually coincides with being uptight as little as possible.
I’ve posted more in depth responses to ‘reducitarianism’ elsewhere. In one comment I made an analogy to quitting smoking, and how ‘reducing’ my cigarette count only led to a rebound where I smoked even more than before.
It’s well known in the scientific literature that people are so inaccurate at self-reporting what, and how much of what, they eat, that questionnaire-based studies are specifically designed to compensate for these inaccuracies. So anecdotal claims of people reducing their animal consumption mean very little, particularly when data seems to indicate the opposite.
And like Ed Winter’s post gets into, you need to put the concept of reduction within the concept of justice. Fewer animals being bred and slaughtered sounds nice, but what about for the animals still being abused and murdered? Do you find it acceptable when corporations promise only to reduce carbon emissions by about 10% by 2035? Or how would you feel if police unions claimed they would disproportionately arrest black people 20% less than they used to?
Sorry but ‘reduction’ is nothing but a self-soothe to make people feel like they’re doing something good, when in reality they are just continuing their injustice while assuaging their own guilt. Just another form of cognitive dissonance.
Most farm animals have been selectively bred for traits that fit human needs, at the expense of the animal’s own quality of life. For example, chickens being bred to produce so many eggs that they become calcium deficient and their bones break under the weight of their own bodies. Sanctuaries provide safe spaces for these animals to live out the rest of their lives in the most comfort possible, while going vegan is important for a future where we’re no longer breeding these poor beings into an inherently hellish existence.
Wild animal suffering is a hot debate in the vegan communities these days. There is no cut and dry answer for that. However, whatever we do or don’t do to alleviate or eliminate wild animal suffering says nothing about whether we also create and maintain our own system of animal suffering. We can end the human exploitation of animals, and doing so can teach us a lot about ending our exploitation of each other as well.
I’m not really concerned with whether animals are being exploited by humans anymore than I am the same of plants or fungi. I do think animals shouldn’t suffer because I consider pain to be of negative utility even when experienced by non-persons. With that said, I don’t think the goal of reducing or eliminating animal suffering is better-served by the total elimination of livestock than by ensuring humane farming practice. On the off-chance it wasn’t obvious, I don’t think the utility calculation is clear-cut because of the aforementioned problem of wild animals suffering.
Would you rather live a normal life and at some point be mauled to death, or live your entire life in a prison and at some point be killed more painlessly?
Yes, animals suffer and die in the wild. They also suffer and die in captivity, just in different measures, but I would argue they suffer more as farm animals.
If by “normal life” you mean a life riddled with far more anxiety and danger than I currently have, then I guess it would depend on the prison, but I’m leaning towards prison. This is particularly true if I were to lack boredom and the overbearing curiosity that humans have. Turns out, most animals (especially herbivores) don’t get bored and don’t experience curiosity in the same way humans do. It’s almost like we’re different species with different brains.
Also, most animals aren’t people, and my answer doesn’t actually change the utility values.
Maybe you should look into why it’s bad to be ableist, asshole. I’m autistic, not psychopathic; I use logic when approaching abstract ethical problems. Fuck you.
People eating less cows would drastically reduce the cow population. I’m sure they would be culled, with entire plants electing to kill the cows rather than sustain them unprofitably.
Okay, I’ll be serious for a moment because logical consistency is important to me.
I am responding to the image above. The image above is making the suggestion that higher rates of veganism means that cows will get to live. I am not arguing here in any capacity that we should only care about cows, I am making the statement that the premise suggested in the image, that there are cows that would be alive if there were more vegans is flawed at best.
If the image showed a fox, you’d be saying they think you eat foxes. It’s not a good faith interpretation of the argument being presented - you might as well infer that they’re only talking about men in suits, too.
This is very true. Look at pigeons, for example. Used to value pigeons as a tool for communication and they even saved lives, but when technology advanced with things like the telegram, we abandoned pigeons. Cows have been domesticated for tens of thousands of years, meaning they are dependent on us for survival, and even if we don’t use then for food, we will still have to take care of them as cows have many things wrong with they’re biology such as the fact that they will die if not milked, and no, the calf can’t keep up with that as the modern cow produces far more milk than they did in the wild so long ago. In essence, cows would either become white elephants or go extinct if we didn’t care for them.
“They have to suffer or else they would be extinct” is a very easy argument to make about other beings when you’re not the one doing the suffering. Personally, I would rather not exist than have a few short years of abysmal suffering and no chance to have a meaningful life.
People who “are something”, in general are annoying as fuck. As soon as you make something your identity you’ve probably fucked up.
That said I’ve tried to reduce meat consumption as much as possible, for the environment and the animals.
I agree. Militant meat eaters are just as annoying as cliché vegans but there seem to be more of the former.
Reducing meat consumption is probably the best way to go for most people (I’ve reduced mine because of my vegetarian wife and don’t feel like I miss anything) but eating strictly vegan doesn’t seem right to me. Anything that requires supplementation in the long run cannot be the final answer.
Not trying to start an argument with you, you do you, but are you aware that most factory farmed animals are supplemented with B12? Meat and dairy consumers are taking supplements, just indirectly.
Also, anybody living in cloudy areas (North Europe, North US, Canada, etc) should be taking vitamin D supplements anyway, meat eater or vegan.
No, you’re right, mass-produced meat comes from livestock with all kinds of deficiencies itself.
As I said I reduced my meat consumption - to maybe 1-2 times per week. And I try to avoid cheap mass-produced meat and aim for quality instead.
Not sure what’s worse though: cheap meat or ultra-processed vegan meat alternatives (often severely lacking protein too) filling the shelves nowadays.
There was a big news story in the UK last year about “the end of veganism”, which was pretty funny. Basically they were watching the cheap vegan processed shit drop heavily in sales. As people get more comfortable with the diet, they tend to get more whole foods and cook tofu/seitan/peas/etc for their protein, which led to a drop in sales of trash.
Fuck ‘meat alternatives’; they’re a dumb idea. Maybe a transitional step?
Ok mooOOOOoOom. Geez.
I eat meat from time to time, so definitely not even vegetarian, but I’ve absolutely run into more offended meat eaters than vegans IRL, but meat at dinner is a big part of my home country’s culture.
I remember my sisters’ boyfriend fuming, thinking we were trolling him by not having meat at a family dinner. The meat eating mind cannot comprehend.
Literally the only strictly necessary supplement for vegans is b12, and if you understand the science of b12, then you know that you either should be supplementing it anyway, or you’re just rolling the dice.
By contrast there are entire whole-food plant-based communities who routinely report the near-miraculous benefits they gain after adopting the diet, such as cholesterol levels that aren’t deadly.
That is a far more complex topic than just meat consumption though. People don’t just go vegan but completely change their diet and actually look at what they consume.
I’ve never had high cholesterol even back when I ate meat daily. Always ate lots of salads and veggies though and didn’t snack sugary shit all day.
The thing I want to be clear about here is that a vegan diet is nutritionally adequate for all our needs, and at every stage of life.
Eat nutritional yeast. Sourdough. Beer.
I’ve met more militant meat assholes. By a lot. Including when I was vegan.
Meat eaters don’t come in your face and call you weed whacker or tree huger whenever there’s food being mentioned.
LMAO yes they fucking do!
They absolutely do. Endless repetitions of the same tired jokes, unprompted self justifications, odd assumptions. Happens all the time. They take offense at the sheer mention you are a vegetarian or vegan, you dont even have to try to convert them. Just be there, rejecting meat on your plate during dinner.
I try to be very tolerant of the unprompted self-justifications and maybe just ask a couple questions about it. At some level they feel a change is warranted, and humans change their minds messily over years, not instantly during arguments.
Yeah, I mean they are not fooling anyone, if they bring the topic up on their own trying to tell me why they eat meat it is quite obvious they have a guilty conscience and are trying to justify it to themselves more than me.
Your approach is a lot more conciliatory though, I am usually so annoyed that I just question why they are so defensive they are telling me those things unprompted.
Or just ordering something without meat because it sounds fucking tasty. Their shit is equally lost.
If you are not preaching and you get those reactions, like I said elsewhere those people are then assholes. It goes both directions of course. You have the right to make your own choices, but telling others what they should do while acting smug then it’s a different matter.
Yeah I am the only vegan I know and I don’t get shit about it from anyone. In fact, my friends and family are very supportive. If people are going after someone for being vegetarian/vegan, they are exceptionally rude and by no means represent meat-eaters in general.
I am sympathetic to the commentors who are being given a hard time for their diet but that is not a universal experience and pretending otherwise is not going to help anyone.
They do in my experience. I’ve never once criticized someone else for eating meat, but I get made fun of a lot for looking for vegetarian/vegan options.
If you just order food without going all “am actually vegan” just to let everyone know and people still make fun of you… then those people are assholes. No one should be judged on their own choices.
Unfortunately, it’s super common. When it comes to my family, they stopped rubbing my face in it once I stood up for myself, which is nice. I had to publicly call out my brother for behaving towards me the way he imagines vegans do before he fully stopped. I have friends who I enjoy the company of, I play board games and tabletop RPGs with them. If I’m round at their place and they’re cooking, sometimes they go into a tirade about how being a vegan is terrible and I have to politely ask them to stop because I’m there to enjoy their company, not defend my eating practices.
It’s thankfully gotten less common, but I honestly think that the whole “angry vegan” stereotype caused them to get on the offensive immediately, expecting a big verbal showdown. I think it’s also this perception of “you think you’re better than me, huh?”.
Now that people know what to expect, sometimes they have questions about why not dairy, or why not eggs. I’m happy to answer those questions, but I’ve never gone into the topic of my own accord.
They are just assholes. It’s not that difficult to make vegan food, they just don’t want to go out of their way to make some for you. I have bunch of vegan and vegetarian friends. Vegans are definitely harder to make food for, but if we are making some food, they better help out if with nothing else with advice or recipes. But I’ve never found it difficult to prepare extra meal or two. It’s just them being lazy.
But that’s the thing, they do. They just also supplement that with a healthy dose of their opinion. These people aren’t assholes (specifically my friends, there are of course assholes in every group), they just naturally get very defensive because I’m a walking contradiction to a few of their deeply held beliefs.
Well, black sheep always get that treatment and not only because of food. Doing anything different than what crowd expects will give you weird gazes. Though, I don’t understand the part where you need to get the lecture every time if they don’t mind making food for you. Either do it or don’t.
Are you saying people should hide the fact that they’re vegan?
Yes they do. I’m not even vegan anymore, and I still deal with them starting shit. The most obnoxious assholes.
My MIL went full plant based (vegan but also only raw or minimally processed foods, doesn’t even eat tofu or olive oil if she can avoid it) after watching some documentary on Netflix and it is her entire personality now, including trying to force it on my wife I who already eat vegetarian 95% of the time (everything at home is vegetarian, occasionally eat meat out if none of the vegetarian options sound good) primarily for environmental and health reasons. Every time we visit her she makes some snide and not even veiled remarks about us still occasionally eating meat and still eating dairy, her favorite is referring to any sort of cheese as “congealed cow puss”.
She also 100% believes it can cure diabetes, Alzheimers, dementia, and cancer in a matter of months and that meat and dairy cause autism.
Most likely she suppresses envy, one way or another.
She wants that “congealed cow puss” herself.
Exactly. I don’t label myself as a vegan. But when I go somewhere where they try to feed me meat/eggs, I tell them that I don’t eat meat/eggs.
It’s defi becoming more common to avoid assuming everyone is cool with whatever food.
Eh. I lived in a place that has a lot of vegans and know a lot of them. In reality I think only a small percentage of vegans do this. But the ones who do are the most vocal, and the most likely to have negative interactions with non-vegans.
I think a lot of basic assholes hate on anyone with an identity. Whether it’s actually annoying or not.
So do you also find people that are allergic annoying? We all are something.
That’ll just make them throw a tantrum and stop trying to quit.
“I’m going to be a cunt to people who are making an effort”
You’re giving us a bad name. 80% of people eating 50% less meat is a lot better and easier to achieve than 20% of people eating eating no meat.
I’m in the same boat with a lot of commenters here, of trying to reduce my consumption for ethical reasons. Throughout my life I’ve tried being vegan and I’ve tried being vegetarian and always failed and now am just minimizing and it’s working very well for me.
Nonetheless, that picture gave me a chuckle. Life’s a ride, might as well have as good a time as possible and that usually coincides with being uptight as little as possible.
I’ve posted more in depth responses to ‘reducitarianism’ elsewhere. In one comment I made an analogy to quitting smoking, and how ‘reducing’ my cigarette count only led to a rebound where I smoked even more than before.
It’s well known in the scientific literature that people are so inaccurate at self-reporting what, and how much of what, they eat, that questionnaire-based studies are specifically designed to compensate for these inaccuracies. So anecdotal claims of people reducing their animal consumption mean very little, particularly when data seems to indicate the opposite.
And like Ed Winter’s post gets into, you need to put the concept of reduction within the concept of justice. Fewer animals being bred and slaughtered sounds nice, but what about for the animals still being abused and murdered? Do you find it acceptable when corporations promise only to reduce carbon emissions by about 10% by 2035? Or how would you feel if police unions claimed they would disproportionately arrest black people 20% less than they used to?
Sorry but ‘reduction’ is nothing but a self-soothe to make people feel like they’re doing something good, when in reality they are just continuing their injustice while assuaging their own guilt. Just another form of cognitive dissonance.
https://ourworldindata.org/meat-production
Haha this is funny
If your goal is preserving the life of cows, everyone becoming vegan will not help; most farm animals can’t survive without human intervention.
Most farm animals have been selectively bred for traits that fit human needs, at the expense of the animal’s own quality of life. For example, chickens being bred to produce so many eggs that they become calcium deficient and their bones break under the weight of their own bodies. Sanctuaries provide safe spaces for these animals to live out the rest of their lives in the most comfort possible, while going vegan is important for a future where we’re no longer breeding these poor beings into an inherently hellish existence.
Yes, much better to have wild animals gutting each other and devouring live prey than to have any farm animals at all. Greatest plan.
Wild animal suffering is a hot debate in the vegan communities these days. There is no cut and dry answer for that. However, whatever we do or don’t do to alleviate or eliminate wild animal suffering says nothing about whether we also create and maintain our own system of animal suffering. We can end the human exploitation of animals, and doing so can teach us a lot about ending our exploitation of each other as well.
I’m not really concerned with whether animals are being exploited by humans anymore than I am the same of plants or fungi. I do think animals shouldn’t suffer because I consider pain to be of negative utility even when experienced by non-persons. With that said, I don’t think the goal of reducing or eliminating animal suffering is better-served by the total elimination of livestock than by ensuring humane farming practice. On the off-chance it wasn’t obvious, I don’t think the utility calculation is clear-cut because of the aforementioned problem of wild animals suffering.
Would you rather live a normal life and at some point be mauled to death, or live your entire life in a prison and at some point be killed more painlessly?
Yes, animals suffer and die in the wild. They also suffer and die in captivity, just in different measures, but I would argue they suffer more as farm animals.
If by “normal life” you mean a life riddled with far more anxiety and danger than I currently have, then I guess it would depend on the prison, but I’m leaning towards prison. This is particularly true if I were to lack boredom and the overbearing curiosity that humans have. Turns out, most animals (especially herbivores) don’t get bored and don’t experience curiosity in the same way humans do. It’s almost like we’re different species with different brains.
Also, most animals aren’t people, and my answer doesn’t actually change the utility values.
maybe try getting a professional to look into that psychopathy of yours
Maybe you should look into why it’s bad to be ableist, asshole. I’m autistic, not psychopathic; I use logic when approaching abstract ethical problems. Fuck you.
People eating less cows would drastically reduce the cow population. I’m sure they would be culled, with entire plants electing to kill the cows rather than sustain them unprofitably.
There would be other animals there instead
Oh wow, do these goalposts have legs?
Who set the goalposts of cows only? If we’re playing logical fallacy bingo, then that’s a straw man.
Okay, I’ll be serious for a moment because logical consistency is important to me.
I am responding to the image above. The image above is making the suggestion that higher rates of veganism means that cows will get to live. I am not arguing here in any capacity that we should only care about cows, I am making the statement that the premise suggested in the image, that there are cows that would be alive if there were more vegans is flawed at best.
If the image showed a fox, you’d be saying they think you eat foxes. It’s not a good faith interpretation of the argument being presented - you might as well infer that they’re only talking about men in suits, too.
This is very true. Look at pigeons, for example. Used to value pigeons as a tool for communication and they even saved lives, but when technology advanced with things like the telegram, we abandoned pigeons. Cows have been domesticated for tens of thousands of years, meaning they are dependent on us for survival, and even if we don’t use then for food, we will still have to take care of them as cows have many things wrong with they’re biology such as the fact that they will die if not milked, and no, the calf can’t keep up with that as the modern cow produces far more milk than they did in the wild so long ago. In essence, cows would either become white elephants or go extinct if we didn’t care for them.
“They have to suffer or else they would be extinct” is a very easy argument to make about other beings when you’re not the one doing the suffering. Personally, I would rather not exist than have a few short years of abysmal suffering and no chance to have a meaningful life.
I never said they would have to suffer, I’m saying without a purpose that society finds useful, the majority of society will stop caring about them.