Real question. I would like to know what drives you to hate Apple? (In terms of privacy of course because in terms of price it’s another story).
Security theater: All you stuff is encrypted but they have the decryption keys
Proprietary App Store: The apps and the store itself are proprietary and I don’t trust Apple.
Gaslighting their customers: Images shared with Android users from iPhone are purposely crushed to a unreviewable quality. The idea is to convince people that Android takes terrible photographs.
From recent experience: They read your screen which means the government reads your screen as well. Its okay. if you’re doing nothing illegal, you have nothing to hide! All history books that could tell you otherwise are paywalled anyway!
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About “Security theater”: you can enable what’s called “Advanced Data Protection” so the encryption keys are only stored on-device for most types of data including photos, backups and also notes for example. Mail and calendar is one exception that comes to mind, but you could also always use a different mail and calendar service. This is a fairly recent feature, so you may have missed it. Sure, it’s not your fully self-hosted “cloud” on which you can audit every single line of code and whatnot, but it might actually be the best “compromise” of ease-of-use vs. privacy for many people outside the tech bubble we’re in in this community.
About “Proprietary App Store”: the store itself and many apps on there are proprietary, but there are a lot of open source apps on the App Store as well. The bigger problem is the fact that the App Store is the only (hassle-free) way to install apps to the iPhone and only recently the EU seems to change that with alternative storefronts now emerging, but Apple is limiting the use of them to the EU, so they’re essentially doing the bare minimum to comply with EU law.
About “Gaslighting their customers”: I’d like to see hard proof on that. I think what you’re talking about is the fact that messages sent to Android users using the default “Messages” app are sent as MMS, which is an ancient technology and as such only support tiny, low-quality images. Android doesn’t support iMessage and Apple seems to like to keep it that way as it’s apparently selling a lot of iPhones this way in the US (and sure, I agree that’s a bad thing). It does get better with the just-announced RCS support (a supposedly open protocol which Google added so many proprietary extensions to you can’t really call it open anymore) so pictures can be send in full quality to Android users using the Messages app. Also, you could always use a third-party messenger like Signal or WhatsApp and send full-quality pictures just fine.
I’m not saying there aren’t any concerns, but some of the information you provided is at least out of date.
Android doesn’t support iMessage
I think it’s the inverse: iMessage doesn’t support Android.
Those aren’t equivalent statements; the first implies that something about Android makes it impossible for Apple to produce an iMessage client for it when that is purely a business decision on Apple’s part.
You are correct and the person you’re responding to is wrong about just about everything they said. Funny to me they think mms is why those images look so shitty when no android users have ever experienced that without an ios device involved
MMS does have size limits that can hurt image quality, but I have the impression iOS applies limits of its own that are considerably lower. I’m not sure why anybody in 2024 wouldn’t have at least a couple modern messaging apps, but it seems a lot of people don’t.
Well yes exactly. I have noticed for years that every photo or video an iPhone sends me is worse quality than flip phones used to send/receive. Amazing to me that iPhone users fall for this trick
Like they missed that the whole apple MO is to make them feel superior without evidence
It seems like an odd decision to me, as it would make the iPhone look like it has a substandard camera to someone receiving media from one by MMS.
The idea is to convince people that things only look good on iPhones
Android users would use RCS for communicating with each other via the default messaging app on Android.
MMS has a hard size limit depending on the carrier the sender uses, that’s independent of the sender using an Android phone or an iPhone. This limit can be as high as “more than 1 MB”, but also as low as 300 KB or even less. Compressing an image down to 300 KB will naturally incur a quality penalty.
Rcs is a new thing and not all android phones use it even now
Photos sent from iPhones look like shit today and they did years ago. Rcs is not a factor.
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Interest in RCS is recent - newer than iMessage, which launched in 2011. RCS with Google’s proprietary extensions is just another proprietary messaging app, and I am not particularly excited about it.
even so far as “patch” a fix that was created to make it possible for their customers to communicate securely with Android users.
There’s no shortage of options for doing that. What Apple wants is tight control over all of its walled gardens, which should be no surprise given the company’s history. They’re very good at making it appear as if decisions made to increase their profits are aligned with the interests of users. It’s probably even true that someone would have exploited the technique Beeper Mini was using to send spam if Apple hadn’t closed it.
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SMS fallback. A feature which you can use with any app on Android
SMS fallback is not a common feature of internet-based messaging apps on Android. Signal used to do it, but does not now. I don’t think WhatsApp or Telegram ever did.
Yup, good point!
About “Security theater”:
keep in mind that companies can lie on how their stuff works, also I don’t think the nature of the store matters, as much as the fact that you’re only allowed to get the open source apps from there which will also run on top of a proprietary OS, with proprietary firmware
Gaslighting their customers": I’d like to see hard proof on that
Consider that I have a low standard on what a hard proof should be,… I consider telling people that : “Privacy, that’s iPhone”, while literally developing nothing in the open, which is the best and ONLY way to guarantee transparency, instead they went with the “trust me bruh” method, plus they display ads… like…they have… a… dedicated… ad … platform…
You don’t respect my Privacy while you target me with ads
Or being unable to install third-party apps or other browser engines is supposed to be for security reasons. Or being environment friendly through their recycling program when the truth is that they only do that to keep spare parts out of reach of independent repair shops. Pure gaslighting.
They can lie about how the advanced data encryption works…. But then they also tell you that you’re shit outta luck if you forget or screw up your decryption code. If they really had a back door, then I would expect them to take a much less hard line on you’re screwed if you lose the key.
I would be surprised if they had a back door too given how they’ve pushed back on back doors from the NSA and EU
I mean they understand their encryption algorithm, they made it after all, and with the advancements of Quantum computing it could be possible to decrypt someone’s data… So what good does providing quantum computing for Imessages do… If they : understand how the algorithm works + they have enough computing power to decrypt it + it’s proprietary.
I wouldn’t be surprised if it was all a theater, and it’s the best backdoor implementation to exist
This feels a lot like the argument of well what if they break TLS? A lot of hypotheticals when I don’t have any reason or proof to believe that they’ve made a back door
No, breaking an encryption is all about knowing how it works, many cryptographers make their algorithm proprietary in hopes that an attacker will have a hard time figuring how it works, however they turn out to be weak, other encryption algorithms are developed in the open so that many people look at it and see the flaws
The key word is : weak The idea is not making a backdoor directly, the idea is making it flawed, it’s like securing a bank with steel doors with the exception of one door, that door is made out of wood and only you know where it’s located.
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Regarding gaslighting: See Apple’s response on the CSAM backdoor shit show. All the critics were wrong, including the various advocacy groups.
Simp.
And in addition they run big adverts on caring about privacy, while in reality they do the same shit as all the other tech companies, but just use their monopoly power to push out surveillance advertisement competitors.
They don’t, actually. They only sell anonymized statistics and don’t allow advertisers to choose who they advertise to. As a result, they can’t charge as much for advertising. So they are actively taking less money to better protect your information in that respect.
Apple runs their own advertisement network these days. Its pointless to argue that they sell less data when they themselves still collect all of it for their own advertisement purposes.
Where is this information from an independent party (not from Crapple)?
I do like their laptops, but for literally everything else: the fact that I basically don’t own my own hardware.
I can’t install or distribute my own software without Apple’s arbitrary approval. When Apple decides it’s done supporting the products, I can’t even install a different OS like Linux because the hardware is completely locked down… they become paper-weights.
That is not how ownership is supposed to work.
What could you not install Linux on? I’ve never had that issue.
My 2011 iPad 3rd gen.
A lightweight Linux distribution would make that thing killer for word processing and document reading. Might even allow YouTube videos to be watched again.
Any equivalent Android tablet would have custom ROMs etc. to get a bit more functionality out of it. I know it’s not a tablet, but look at the Samsung galaxy SII - the amount of community development for that is incredible to this day.
I mean, I wouldn’t expect to have custom Linux ROMs for an iPad. For an Android device, which is already Linux based, that would make sense. But it wouldn’t surprise me if the newer iPads had builds for them since they’re built on the same processor as the MacBooks
I was able to install Linux on my 2015 MBP, but weird stuff didn’t work OOTB like the webcam and while I eventually got it working, it was less than polished because it was all reverse engineered workarounds by the Linux gods who managed to figure out the exact commands that were needed to be run.
In what way is the hardware locked down? Is this something new with the M chips?
Everything except the Mac line has a locked boot process. So your iPhone or iPad must run the latest iOS, must have an Apple ID, must source apps from Apple, and Apple has gotten so good at securing their devices that its basically killed hobbyist jailbreaking.
Anything you do on these multi thousand dollar devices is only because Apple allows you to— reluctantly, I might add.
- price
- closed ecosystem that funnels you into buying more overpriced hardware
- general feeling of superiority apple customers often seem to aquire
(e.g. my former project lead refused to touch other peoples devices because using them “doesn’t feel like apple, eww”)
Overpriced hardware comes with a boon: It lasts longer. I am by no means an apple fanboy, but when I discovered the 12 year old Mac of my dad still performed like mid-range PCs with Windows, I was quite surprised.
Still not buying their hardware though…
Except a 12 year old Mac isn’t supported by Apple anymore and will likely be riddled with vulnerabilities. You could just load Linux on it since it’s probably an Intel based chipset.
It depends on the chipset. The big changes in chipset have been the big barriers for Mac upgradability. My father ran a 10 year old MacBook that was still running the latest MacOS until he found that his 4GB of RAM wasn’t going to be enough and bought a new one (without talking to me first). I had a PPC MacBook that ran on the latest MacOS for about 6 years after Apple switched to Intel.
Also the hardware support is not great, for example the webcam. I installed Linux on my old MBP but it was a hassle to get the webcam working involving some dubious command line entries with
sudo
As long as the OS was supported, updates were available.
But yes, I loaded a nice Fedora on it… 😉
Check out Louis Rossman on youtube. Especially his apple hardware design analysis.
Rossman has a vendetta against Apple ever since he got caught importing counterfeit batteries (You can’t slap the Apple logo on batteries that Apple did not make, even if you call them “refurbished”)
Planned obsolescence: the other day I was setting up a refurbished MacBook air from 2017. It officially runs only up to macOS 12. I wanted to install apple’s productivity suite iWorks (pages, keynotes, numbers) on it.
But the AppStore said I would need macOS 13 to download and install it. Why the eff doesn’t it allow me to install an older version of those apps, and why does the 2017 not support macOS 13?
So I installed Open core Legacy Patcher, built a macOS 13 installer. Installed 13 with absolutely no issues and finally was able to install iWorks.
Any non versed or risk taking user would need to buy a newer Mac… good job apple.
Conversely I have a dell xps from 2018 that run very well with fedora atomic (kde). I upgraded the SSD, WiFi card and replaced the battery. Should easily last me another 5 years
User repairability and serviceability should be(come) mandatory!
It’s Intel, you too can have fedora atomic, and it’ll likely last another 5 years.
If it would be my device and not a gift I would, yeah :)
Ahh, not so sure how great a gift an insecure computer is, but I imagine you have your reasons…
Uhm how would be it insecure?
OS hasn’t been updated for how many years?
Seeing as no-one’s answering the question in terms of privacy (although I agree with their sentiment)
Trust. You have to trust that they will respect your privacy. They actually talk a good game, are probably superior in privacy to the average android (but not GrapheneOS or Linux) in so much as they fend off other entities trying to hoover your data, mostly so they have exclusive access (at least to metadata, actual data may currently even be secure but that can change and possession is nine tenths and all that). At the end of the day, they’re a greedy mega-corporation and cannot be trusted if they need to keep that line going up this quarter. I much prefer transparent systems that keep me in control and possession of my data.
I like their hardware, excellent build quality (shame about long term support and e-waste though). Will probably pick up a cheap M1 Air once Asahi linux stabilises.
Yes, thank you for answering the privacy issue. To be honest, I use Apple products but not so much iCloud. I’m in the Proton ecosystem and I’m waiting for Firefox to become less terrible than it currently is, otherwise in the meantime I’m using Safari with AdGuard…
I don’t hate Apple in terms of privacy. I hate Apple for a myriad of other reasons. Mostly related to locked down ecosystems.
I don’t like closed systems, vendor lock-in, overpriced tools, or buying equipment that I’ll never truly own.
They’ve redefined privacy to be privacy from everyone except themselves, and then indoctrinated people that they are the most privacy conscious company.
iPhone user here, that is…
…quite accurate actually.
I have used Android and even tried to switch to Android a few years ago, but whenever I use Android, I can’t shake the feeling that uncle Google watches whatever I do, I don’t get the same feeling when I use iOS.
Weather either feeling is accurate I can’t say, but I hesitate to trust an ad compny’s OS over a computer company’s OS.
Again, that is just a feeling, I make no claim wither way which is factually better.
iPhones tend to send close to the same types of info back home. When started, idle, inserting a SIM, on the settings screen, even when not logged in. Like, its very similar even when you look at comprehensive lists which a lot of people either don’t know or ignore. I’m not saying that there aren’t specific benefits or reasons to feel more comfortable with Apple. But saying its because they intrinsically are more private, I feel like that’s a bridge too far
Try GrapheneOS (on a Google pixel, ironically) if you truly want privacy
Just use a custom rom
feeling
Classic Apple user, IMO
Android users also have those, and they also do let their feelings dictate the choice of field communications device
Anti-open(source), anti-open(standards) l, anti-consumer, anti-planet, anti-repair, anti-honest. What else do you need?
Few reasons, first is this:
. Seems like as long as something has a clean interface, or it looks shiny enough, then all its privacy faults are overlooked.Apple also seems to intentionally cultivate and sell their products as privacy-friendly, which is clearly not the case (see image above).
2nd reason is that I had an iphone 2g (one of the first models, I forget which one), and it had bluetooth support. An iOS update broke it, and when I reached out to apple, they lied to me and told me my device had no bluetooth module at all. They’re one of the worst offenders of planned obsolescence, and have become one of the richest companies on the planet because of it.
3rd reason: they sell overpriced products to mainly to high-income imperial-core consumers, selling an image of “upper-class professional”. Look at a graph of iOS market share worldwide, vs its market share in the richest countries. Apple didn’t even bother to condescend to make affordable products for the global south.
The markup on iphones is something outrageous, like 40% of the purchase price is going to the shareholders of apple, not the workers who built the phones. By buying apple, you are mainly supporting these wealthy parasites. Its also why other smartphone brands have higher performance at half the cost of iphones. They really bank on the fact that they’re selling an upper-class identity, and less of a phone.
4th reason: Their ecosystem is locked down in such a way as to make it difficult for open source development. iirc apple won’t even let you use the GPL for any app on their app store.
Wow, this is the most complete answer I have ever seen. But is it wrong if I stay at Apple? Are there any competitors on the Android side that are worth it (I am thinking in particular of a pixel on which GrapheneOS is installed)?
I don’t think it’s wrong to stay with apple, you could always just go with something else for your next phone, although if you are concerned enough about the privacy aspect, you could always sell your phone, and get some advice about which are the best smartphone models to run the privacy-focused android variants.
Some of them list the devices they work on, like lineageOS.
There’s ppl here a lot more knowledgeable than I am here that could help you choose one.
I was thinking about Nothing Phone 2. Does the brand give off a good image in terms of privacy?
I’m currently using Graphene and I love it. There are some features in this OS that i have never seen before. It feels like I’m just running a regular OS. I don’t notice anything unusual.
One thing I really like with gOS is the ability to remove network permission on apps. I use Gboard with no network, and I have found it so far to be the best keyboard for me.
I’ll mention that a pixel with CalyxOS works great as well, no google code code other than AOSP which helps battery life a lot.
Some things like voice controlled companion or android auto are being implemented, but I never really gave a fuck about that stuff, being on bicycle or motorcycle only.
I wonder if younger millennials’ and Gen z’s overwhelming preference for iPhones over Androids is indicative anything in the future
Only in imperial-core countries, most Gen Z’s worldwide don’t use apple products.
apple products are coveted both in and out of imperial core; whether or not they can afford them.
my point is that the most well educated and leftist leaning generations we’ve ever had (i’m assuming) continues to place a premium on products like these and that makes the eventuality of breaking out of this imperialist cycle seem unrealistic.
Cos i dont trust anything that says privacy but doesnt open source and provide reproducible builds.
Their latest announcements are interesting because they say some of their privacy claims will be verifiable by independent firms (mainly when it comes to their custom built AI servers iirc). Is this actually worth something or is it just marketing fluff?
Independent firms hired by them? Right. I don’t think “independent” means what they think it means.
I mean, the Linux lmza exploit was found by a Microsoft engineer. Just because dollars exchange hands doesn’t mean the data provided is invalid.
Companies hire Jepsen to validate their code for example, and you’d be a damn fool not to accept their analysis.
Are you under the impression Microsoft was being paid to find that exploit or something? How is that at all related?
That truly was an independent third-party finding an exploit, and do you know why it was possible? Because the code was open source.
Great point.
That could very well be the case. However, I would have to be seriously gullible to believe anything those closed companies promote an “independent” party paid by them found, moreso if the findings only serve to push their proven lies forward for "public perception’.
In this case it’s and actual independent party auditing open source code, that makes much more sense.
Just because dollars exchange hands doesn’t mean the data provided is invalid.
You are absolutely correct. What means the provided data is invalid is the fact that these companies are regularly found lying about how they handle our " privacy" or how secure they are. Just search for “Apple lied” and see all the instances and how they try to bury it all via PR bullshit.
I believe that, out of Amazon, Google, Meta, Microsoft and Apple, Apple is the lesser evil, but that means shit when they all do the same, just in different ways and at varying degrees.
Who gives a fuck what the server was running when tested. Its not like large companies have ever designed software specifically designed to fool when being tested is it cough vw cough. Its worth something so its probs gonna be fine for the majority of people but never trust anythibg that isnt on hardware u control running verifiably open source code or e2e encrypted.
Major privacy issues that come to mind include:
- App store lock-in on iOS combined with terms incompatible with the GPL mean that some of the most privacy-respecting software cannot be distributed for Apple’s mobile devices.
- Apple proposed, but ultimately did not implement client-side scanning for end-to-end encrypted cloud storage. That such a thing even made it to the public proposal stage shows either incompetence (unlikely) or a lack of serious commitment to privacy (more likely). Apple’s proposal may have emboldened EU regulators who are trying to mandate client-side scanning for encrypted chat apps.
- Browser engine lock-in on iOS means hardened third-party browsers are unavailable.
- The popularity of Apple’s platform-exclusive iMessage service in the USA may be hindering adoption of cross-platform encrypted messaging. On the other hand, without it perhaps most of its current users would use SMS, which is obviously worse.
Wife spilled some beer in the keyboard. Screen doesn’t turn on, it doesn’t hold a charge, keyboard doesn’t work. But we need sensitive data off the drive.
Take it to their “genius” bar where we are told there is nothing that can be done for the old data and we should just buy a new one.
I take it home, Google a bit and try target disk mode. Et Voila I’m in and can get that data from the hard drive as though it was an external HDD.
Why the Apple “genius” didn’t share this option with me? They don’t actually care about helping.
And that’s the rub with Apple. They don’t give a fuck about their users or developers. Just want to herd them around to make more money off their overpriced garbage.
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This, Apple is very anti consumer and you have no freedom to use their devices how you want, only how apple wants.
Walled garden, overpriced exploitation of that locked ecosystem ($5000 monitor stand kind of shit), green bubbles/blue bubbles, dominating all tech with their middle of the road/copycat approach where Android was eventually saturated with same type of execs and “gave up” on differentiating until everything was the same sealed back glass rectangle without MICRO SD expansion memory, leading the charge on “brave” feature killing enshitification like removing the headphone jack, plenty more…
what are ‘green and blue bubbles’?
An elitist dog whistle built to “other” the “poor” people - people that may have otherwise been successfully socializing or “passing” with wealthy people to the point of the first text message sent. Also a quiet tool for labor discrimination.
Only took them about 20 years of oppression to finally announce they would potentially end the practice.
Tbf that’s more of an apple fanboy thing (though apple created, encouraged, and exploited that as an advertising technique, it’s an extension of iPods and their “white headphone cord”).
Basically apple cultists judge you as less than because you’re too poor to afford an iphone and use android instead.
Apple is actually just a really good marketing company that hawks mediocre tech, not a mediocre tech company with a really good marketing team.
iMessage and sms
