Hi,

My question certainly stems from the imposter syndrome that I am living right now for no good reason, but when looking to resolve some issues for embedded C problems, I come across a lot of post from people that have a deep understanding of the language and how a mcu works at machine code level.

When I read these posts, I do understand what the author is saying, but it really makes me feel like I should know more about what’s happening under the hood.

So my question is this : how do you rate yourself in your most used language? Do you understand the subtilities and the nuance of your language?

I know this doesn’t necessarily makes me a bad firmware dev, but damn does it makes me feel like it when I read these posts.

I get that this is a subjective question without any good responses, but I’d be interested in hearing about different experiences in the hope of reducing my imposter syndrome.

Thanks

  • @lohky
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    8 hours ago

    8/10 Server-side JavaScript

    7/10 Ampscript

    3/10 SQL

    There is something about SQL that I can’t get to click with me. I can run basic queries and aggregation, but I can never get nested queries to work right.

    All of these also assume I have access to documentation. Without documentation, all of them are like a 2. 🤷

    • @FourPacketsOfPeanuts
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      27 hours ago

      I loathe debugging ampscript and anything to do with marketing cloud with a passion…

      • @lohky
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        1 hour ago

        Wrap the Ampscript in an ssjs try/catch block and debug all your shit on a cloudpage. ;)

        Everyone that works in SFMC for an extended period of time hates SFMC. Or at least has a love hate relationship with it. I think Salesforce is the most worthless company in existence and John Mulaney’s anti-SF rant at Dreamforce brought a little light to my life.

        I very rarely actually use Ampscript anymore. Almost everything is done in ssjs in my instance. Thank fuck I’m not consulting anymore and don’t have to deal with other company’s stuff.

  • @[email protected]
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    29 hours ago

    I think my job requires me to work in too many different areas. So although I can work in several languages and dev stacks, I am probably only a 2 or 3 or less out of 5 in all of them. However, network and server infrastructure, and cybersec/opsec I am probably more in the realm of a 4-4.5.

  • @SendMePhotos
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    29 hours ago

    1/10 in python. I took a college course or two and enjoyed it.

  • @[email protected]
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    714 hours ago

    After almost 12~15 years of programming in C and C++, I would give myself a solid “still don’t know enough” out of 10.

  • I should know more about what’s happening under the hood.

    You’ve just identified the most important skill of any software developer, IMO.

    The three most valuable topics I learned in college were OS design basics, assembly language, and algorithms. They’re universal, and once you have a grasp on those, a lot off programming language specifics become fairly transparent.

    An area where those don’t help are paradigm specifics: there’s theory behind functional programming and OO programming which, if you don’t understand, won’t impeded you from writing in that language, but will almost certainly result in really bad code. And, depending on your focus, it can be necessary to have domain knowledge: financial, networking, graphics.

    But for what you’re taking about, those three topics cover most of what you need to intuit how languages do what they do - and, especially C, because it’s only slightly higher level than assembly.

    Assembly informs CPU architecture and operations. If you understand that, you mostly understand how CPUs work, as much as you need to to be a programmer.

    OS design informs how various hardware components interact, again, enough to understand what higher level languages are doing.

    Algorithms… well, you can derive algorithms from assembly, but a lot of smart people have already done a ton of work in the field, and it’s silly to try to redo that work. And, units you’re very special, you probably won’t do as good a job as they’ve done.

    Once you have those, all languages are just syntactic sugar. Sure, the JVM has peculiarities in how its garbage collection works; you tend to learn that sort of stuff from experience. But a hash table is a hash table in any language, and they all have to deal with the same fundamental issues of hash tables: hashing, conflict resolution, and space allocation. There are no short cuts.

    • @[email protected]OP
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      115 hours ago

      Thanks for the input, it will make me think about how to approach how to get the skills I need.

      I’d say I am decent with FreeRTOS which is pretty much just a scheduler with a few bells and whistles.

      I haven’t used assembly in a long while, so I know where to look to understand all the instructions, but I can’t tell right off the bat what a chunk of assembly code does.

      Algorithms, I am terrible at these because I rarely use them. I haven’t worked in a big enough project where an algorithm is needed. I tend to work in finite state machine which is close to algorithms, but it’s not quite it. And a big part of my job is interfacing peripheral chips for other to use.

  • @[email protected]
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    315 hours ago

    I would give myself a solid 4.2/5 on python.

    • I have in deepth knowledge of more than a few popular libraries including flask, django, marshmallow, typer, sqlalchemy, pandas, numpy, and many more.
    • I have authored a few libraries.
    • I have been keeping up with PEPs, and sometimes offered my feedback.
    • I have knowledge of the internals of development tooling, including mypy, pylint, black, and a pycharm plugin I have created.

    I wouldn’t give myself a 5/5 since I would consider that an attainable level of expertise, with maybe a few expections around the globe. IMO the fun part of being really good at something is that you understand there still is to learn ❤️

  • @FourPacketsOfPeanuts
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    591 day ago

    With about 12 years in my primary language I’d say my expertise is expressed in knowing exactly what to Google…

    • @[email protected]
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      201 day ago

      This is probably the true highest level of expertise you’ll get out of most professional coders.

      It takes a real monk level of confinement to understanding the language to break out of being proficient in looking shit up and start being proficient in being the person that writes the shit people are looking up.

  • Ephera
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    521 hours ago

    What helped me a lot with pushing deeper down into the language innards is to have people to explain things to.

    Last week, for example, one of our students asked what closures are.
    Explaining that was no problem, I was also able to differentiate them from function pointers, but then she asked what in Rust the traits/interfaces Fn, FnMut and FnOnce did (which are implemented by different closures).

    And yep, she struck right into a blank spot of my knowledge with that.
    I have enough of an idea of them to just fill in something and let the compiler tell me off when I did it wrong.
    Even when designing an API, I’ve worked out that you should start with an FnOnce and only progress to FnMut, then Fn and then a function pointer, as the compiler shouts at you (basically they’re more specific and more restrictive for what the implementer of the closure is allowed to do).

    But yeah, these rules of thumb just don’t suffice for an actual explanation.
    I couldn’t tell you why these different traits are necessary or what the precise differences are.
    So, we’ve been learning about them together and I have a much better understanding now.

    Even in terms of closures in general (independent of the language), where I thought I had a pretty good idea, I had the epiphany that closures have two ways of providing parameters, one for the implementer (captured out of the context) and one for the caller (parameter list).
    Obviously, I was aware of that on some level, as I had been using it plenty times, but I never had as clear of an idea of it before.

    • @[email protected]OP
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      215 hours ago

      I work in a small start-up where I am the only one doing what I do, so my epiphanies come from the struggles I have.

      Other people I work with often have a blank look in their eyes when I try to explain some issues or what the code does because they don’t have the skillset to comprehend what I am doing. So this isn’t a path for me (yet, hopefully we can grow enough where we need more people in my field).

      But I appreciate your experience. I will certainly think about a way to play in the innards of my language so that I can understand it better.

  • @[email protected]
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    211 day ago

    I’ve learned a lot by breaking things. By making mistakes and watching other people make mistakes. I’ve writing some blog posts that make me look real smart.

    But mostly just bang code together until it works. Run tests and perf stuff until it looks good. It’s time. I have the time to write it up. And check back on what was really happening.

    But I still mostly learn by suffering.

    • @[email protected]
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      111 day ago

      But I still mostly learn by suffering.

      That resonates so much. Almost every time someone is deeply impressed with something I know, it brings back a painful memory of how I learned it.

    • @[email protected]OP
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      21 day ago

      I really like brain twisters. It can get frustrating at times, but it’s the most fun out of the profession to me.

  • SuperFola
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    116 hours ago

    I’ve been using Scala professionally for 3 years. I don’t know what I’m doing most of the time because we have a ton of implicites and monads and extension methods. I just know the general idea and can get where I want by reading types.

    I’ve been creating a language for fun for nearly 6 years. I often don’t know what’s going on under the hood because it’s somewhat complex. I think this is normal for every language. You don’t have to know everything to be able to use it. You don’t have to write blog posts once a week about the language subtleties you found.

    • @[email protected]OP
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      115 hours ago

      The blogposts are the example I had because this is usually where I find my solutions.

      I do understand that I don’t need an in depth knowledge of everything about my language, but I sometime feel like I should know more. But again, this is the imposter syndrome talking.

      I am thinking about blogging once my kids are older and I have more time because I am grateful when someone else does and I want to contribute as well.

  • @hperrin
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    181 day ago

    Knowing the footguns in your language is always useful. The more you know, the less you’ll shoot your foot.

    • @[email protected]OP
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      51 day ago

      I think that one of my issue is that I’d like to be more knowledgeable to the smaller bits and bytes of C, but I don’t have the time at work to go deeper and I don’t have any free time because I have young kids.

      • @[email protected]
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        1 day ago

        I don’t have any free time because I have young kids.

        That’s a healthy thing to acknowledge.

        It’s a brutal phase for professional development, hobbies, free time, sex, basic housekeeping…

        It gets better as the little ones grow.

        • @[email protected]OP
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          214 hours ago

          At least, we know emotionally that it will get better with the second one haha, even if the day to day is rought.

          With the first one, it felt like we would never get to the other side of it. But we did and we will for the second one.

          I am eager to learn new things, so having so little free time is definitely tough. And the lack of sleep/energy makes it even harder.

          Thanks for the encouragement, it’s nice to be acknowledged by someone else that went through the same thing. We often forget that we are not alone and a lot of people got through it before us.

      • @[email protected]
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        219 hours ago

        There’s a lot to talk about from this point alone, but I’ll be brief: having gone through university courses on processor design and cutting my teeth on fighting people for a single bit in memory, I’m probably a lot more comfortable with that minutia than most; having written my first few lines of C in 10 years to demo a basic memory safety bug just an hour ago, you’re way way ahead of me.

        There are different ways to learn and gain experience and each path will train us in different skills. Then we build teams around that diversity.

        • @[email protected]OP
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          215 hours ago

          Thanks for the insight. I guess one thing that causes my imposter syndrome is that I want to know how everything works in details.

          I agree that for other people, what I know seems like magic to them. It’s easy to look at what we don’t know, but we don’t take the time to appreciate how far we’ve come. We should do that more often.

      • @[email protected]
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        324 hours ago

        I don’t know about your workplace, but if at all possible I would try to find time between tasks to spend on learning. If your company doesn’t have a policy where it is clear that employees have the freedom to learn during company time, try to underestimate your own velocity even more and use the time it leaves for learning.

        About 10 years ago I worked for a company where I was performing quite well. Since that meant I finished my tasks early, I could have taken on even more tasks. But I didn’t really tell our scrum master when I finished early. Instead I spent the time learning, and also refactoring code to help me become more productive. This added up, and my efficiency only increased more, until at some point I only needed one or two days to complete a week’s sprint. I didn’t waste my time, but I used it to pick up more architectural stuff on the side, while always learning on the job.

        I’ll admit that when I started this route, I already had a bunch of experience under my belt, and this may not be feasible if you have managers breathing down your neck all the time. But the point is, if you play it smart you can use company time to improve yourself and they may even appreciate you for it.

        • @[email protected]OP
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          114 hours ago

          I work in a startup, so I’d say that almost every day, I learn something new. So I don’t really need to look in-between tasks because a lot of tasks bring new challenges.

          When I worked in corpos, my job was restricted to the same tasks and specific knowledge. Now it’s the opposite where I need to learn what I need to create a feature or fix an issue.

          I guess that lately, a lot of new things have popped up and I need to absorb a lot of information to implement the features I need. And that is probably what is triggering the imposter syndrome.

          Thanks for the insight, it is appreciated.

  • @[email protected]
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    23 hours ago

    I am very proficient in my primary language, C#.

    Writing more context out feels like boasting, so I think I will skip that and go to a summation/conclusion directly.

    Knowledge and expertise comes from more than the language. Which you hinted at. The language is only our interface. How is the language represented, how will it transform the code, how will it be run. There’s a lot of depth in there - much more than there is in the language itself.

    I learned a lot, through my own studies and reading, studying, projects, and experience. I’m a strong systematic thinker. It all helps me in interpreting and thinking about wide- and depth- context and concerns. I also think my strengths come at the cost of other things, at least in my particular case.

    You’re not alone. Most developers do not have the depth or wide knowledge. And most [consequently] struggle to or are oblivious to many concerns and opportunities, and to intuitively or quickly understand and follow such information.

    Which does not necessarily mean they’re not productive or useful.

    • @[email protected]OP
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      215 hours ago

      Through the different replies, I reflected on what I know and what I do for work and I feel like my skillset is more akin to a generalist/integrator, which is needed. But I also feel like everyone in my domain does that. Which might or might not be true.

      I guess knowing our strengths and weaknesses is also a skill in itself and a little bit of self doubt here and there can help us grow and direct our knowledge in a certain direction.

      Thanks for the insight.

  • @[email protected]
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    161 day ago

    how do you rate yourself in your most used language?

    I know things that no human should have to carry the knowledge of

    Do you understand the subtilities and the nuance of your language?

    My soul is scarred by the nuanced minutia of many an RFC.

    in the hope of reducing my imposter syndrome.

    There’s but two types in software - those who have lived to see too much…and those who haven’t…yet.

  • @Professorozone
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    91 day ago

    A one out of ten. I consider myself the world’s second worst programmer.

      • @Professorozone
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        111 hours ago

        Nope. I’m just that bad. I feel like I have a logical mind but it just seems like the command don’t do what I think they will, won’t operate on a certain type of variable or Holy crap I forgot a friggin space or semi-colon or something.

        Languages in order of proficiency: C++ HTML/CSS Matlab Basic Fortran (1 class taken)

        But when I say proficient I seriously mean looking stuff up on the internet for every single line. And I haven’t used Basic in decades.

      • @Professorozone
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        111 hours ago

        You mean the worst? I don’t know. I’m just hopeful that I’m not actually the worst. Fingers crossed.

      • @istoff
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        61 day ago

        Odds are the worst one is still using Twitter.

  • magic_lobster_party
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    322 hours ago

    I’m mostly working in Java now. I’m proficient to the degree that I can solve most things without looking for reference online. I think that matters most to me.

    • @[email protected]OP
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      115 hours ago

      It’s funny because I often have to look for the prototype of a function because I often forget all the arguments a standard C function uses, but otherwise, i feel like I am proficient enough to know where to look for, which in my case is normal because I won’t memorize all the details of how each peripheral of the mcu works.