wow, after his family sued the agencies responsible, " In early 2013, a judge dismissed the lawsuit, saying public safety officials had no legal duty to save Zack."
what in the actual fuck is wrong with these people?
it’s really hard to know exactly what happened.
Imagine that one of the first rules of being a rescue person is not to endanger yourself.
There’s plenty that could go wrong rescuing someone who’s potentially violent and doesn’t necessarily want to be rescued and neck deep in the ocean.
It sounds like an easy rescue but it would be very difficult to defend yourself if things went the wrong way.
I was BSA lifeguard certified when I was a kid and a bigger part of the training than you’d think was about how to make sure that a panicking, drowning person doesn’t kill the both of you. One of the things they drill into your head over and over is that it’s really easy to get overwhelmed because in the water there’s nothing to push off of, and if you let yourself get overwhelmed two people are going to die instead of one.
Law enforcement is the US exists for 2 reasons:
1 - Suppress minorites, and funnel them into prisons for slave labor. 2 - protect the lives and assets of the wealthy ruling class.
That’s it.
Yeah but some police don’t realize that at least and try to be alright.
Some go into the job wanting to do good. Most of them quit when they realize what’s really going on.
They had moral duty, but apparently not legal duty. I see nothing wrong with this ruling, if this is what the law says.
Actually I found this:
“The court finds that under the circumstances presented, there was no moral blame attendant to the conduct of the responding officers and firefighters,” Hernandez said in his ruling at the Hayward Hall of Justice.
The reporting is a mess though. Hard to know exactly what happened.
Yep. Has been case precedent since 89’ ya dummies. DeShaney v. Winnebago. No duty to protect legally speaking.
Police officers also have no legal duty to help anyone, as fucked as that ruling is. Thanks, Supreme Court.
A lot of American firefighters are volunteers. Telling them that they can be personally liable in civil court if someone comes along after they try to rescue someone and thinks they could have done a better job is a great way to make sure that each and every one of those volunteer firefighters quits tomorrow.
I feel for the guy, and the agencies didn’t exactly coordinate well, but he was the one who wanted to die… so mission accomplished.
Bad form for his family to sue.
Oh fuck off. For all you know it could have been a cry for help, and when no one helped, he followed through. A crowd of people had formed on the beach ffs, if you’re depressed and you realize there’s a whole crowd waiting for you to die, that’s going to fucking suck.
Bad form are the “public safety” officials, the legal system, and all of the bystanders that did nothing. Bad form is your lackadaisical response to this tragedy, as if it’s okay to just shrug off someone’s life as “mission accomplished”. Shame on them, and shame on you.
Bad form are the “public safety” officials, the legal system, and all of the bystanders that did nothing
I’d like to point out that several civilian bystanders prepped to go out and help him, only to be told by the police to not enter the water. Even once he collapsed, it was a young civilian woman ignoring police orders who entered the water a retrieved his body.
Even once he collapsed, it was a young civilian woman ignoring police orders who entered the water a retrieved his body.
I’d also like to point out that they only waited until the guy collapsed (and ultimately drowned) before someone actually did something, despite being told not to do it.
That’s assuming they were there the whole time? Also, it’s pretty well known that people are susceptible to the bystander effect, especially when someone of perceived higher authority is at the scene.
Yes. And? That’s why they failed him.
Yes. And? That’s why they failed him.
So excuses for the trained first responders, blame the victim, and then blame the untrained bystanders who attempted to help? Is that how you want to frame this picture?
The civilians didn’t fail him, the first responder system did. If the first responders would have taken action he’d be fine, if the first responders weren’t at the scene the civilians would have saved him.
This situation happened because the people who are paid to help chose not too.
You think I’m blaming the victim?
No, no. I would never blame Raymond Zack - or anyone in his position. Never. Anybody who contemplates or ideates suicide is someone who needs our upmost attention and seriousness. For someone to actively start the process, regardless of intention, deserves it even more so.
I speak from personal experience.
I understand the emotional reaction people are giving me. It’s sad when someone leaves us.
He was wading… he could have walked back at any time, with no issue. Individuals from the shore who go out to him could get involved in a struggle and drown, so I understand why first responders didn’t wade out with rescue line like they would with someone trapped in a flood.
He was wading… he could have walked back at any time, with no issue.
Spoken like someone who’s never helped anyone during a mental health crisis.
Individuals from the shore who go out to him could get involved in a struggle and drown
That is the same exact risk that anyone trying to prevent a drowning faces. Anyone with basic water rescue training knows that they have to expect to struggle with the person they are rescuing.
I understand why first responders didn’t wade out with rescue line like they would with someone trapped in a flood.
Why are we forced to pay for these people’s jobs, if there’s no consequence of them not doing their jobs? If you don’t want a job that forces you to endanger your health for the sake of others…don’t become a fist responder.
That is the same exact risk that anyone trying to prevent a drowning faces.
You’re negating the fact that non-suicidal people being rescued will not actively try to harm you or prevent their own rescue once the panic subsides. Many people in this thread do not understand the risk a rescuer would face in this situation. Your first duty is ALWAYS to your own safety so that, at minimum, you don’t compound the problem.
You’re negating the fact that non-suicidal people being rescued will not actively try to harm you or prevent their own rescue once the panic subsides
I’m guessing you have zero experience or training on this subject? Drowning people usually don’t stop panicking until they loose consciousness, or are back on land and have stopped hyperventilating. You literally just put them in a headlock and something to grab at that isn’t you.
You are also conflating suicidal behavior with homicidal behavior, just because someone is having a mental health crisis doesn’t mean they are inherently violent.
