- cross-posted to:
- health
- cross-posted to:
- health
Eighty national public health groups, including the American Heart Association, the American Medical Association, the American Academy of Pediatrics and the American College of Preventative Medicine, placed a full-page ad in Sunday’s edition of the Washington Post in support of a federal ban on menthol in cigarettes and all flavored cigars.
“The answer is clear,” the full-page ad says. “Saving lives starts by ending the sale of menthol cigarettes and all flavored cigars.
“Smoking kills nearly half a million people in the United States each year, and these addictive, deadly products are a big part of the problem. The FDA and White House have our full support to release lifesaving rules prohibiting menthol cigarettes and all flavored cigars.”
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When are we going to start banning flavored alcohol like White Claw and Mike’s while we’re at it
Please don’t joke this into existence
It worked out so well the last time we tried.
Menthol and other flavoured cigarettes were banned in the EU years ago, and I don’t recall much of a fuss, not sure why this would be an issue in the US.
My experience was that long time smokers weren’t the ones smoking menthol and other weird stuff, it was mostly kids that didn’t like tobacco.
I was referring to the comment about banning certain types of booze in the US and what happened when we tried that before.
Yep, I know. Which is why I pointed to the example that is actually relevant, as the EU passed this exact law years ago.
But I don’t suppose you troubled yourself with that, and I get it. Going down that road might actually force you to reconsider your perspective at some point, or alternatively, deal with a massive and inconvenient cognitive dissonance, so instead you chose the safe path and stick to your cautionary tale because it validates your reasoning, if we just ignore for a moment the fact that it’s irrelevant regarding this specific instance and a better source was available to educate us about the effects of this legislation.
Yeah, I don’t know what has your panties in such a twist, but I also don’t really care enough about you or menthol cigarettes to be a part of it, so you’ll have to pick a fight with someone else.
I was just making a joke about America’s history of banning things people like.
There ain’t to laws when you cracking claws.
You do have a point but the danger is far higher on the tabaco side. Priorities and such, we won’t see anything like that for quite some time.
Is it though? I’m pretty sure alcohol is the most destructive legal drug there is. But prohibition didn’t go so great last time so don’t take that as a call to start banning sweet alcohol, I just disagree with the assertion that tobacco is worse.
According to global statistics, Alcohol was responsible for 5% of global deaths, while tobacco squeaked past with 8% of global deaths.
I’m suggesting that the negative health effects are more pronounced with tobacco.
And I disagree. I’ve been around a lot of barely functioning alcoholics in my life. But this isn’t me arguing that you’re flat out wrong, just questioning it because it doesn’t line up with my experience.
And yet someone with real data posted something that says that tobacco actually causes more deaths. I presume that yours was the one downvote.
Nah. I rarely downvote unless someone says something exceptionally stupid. I might argue that deaths is a narrow way to measure, but it’s certainly valid and facts are facts. I’m glad that was posted.
For the record I’m not attempting to disagree with you. When you add in the collateral toll that alcohol takes, its impact may indeed be greater than tobacco. I was referring specifically to the toxicity of cigarettes. Although there is likely a safe amount of alcohol you can consume, there is no safe level of smoking you can take on. My comments have been confined specifically to this area.
The real priority is to work to eliminate the power of public health to dictate private life choices.
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I have maybe a cigar a month. Sometimes, a nice dipped cigar is enjoyable. It’d be a shame to just outright ban them.
I sort of feel like this is the equivalent of banning white claws or even everything other than IPAs. During the summer I have a cigar most days. Once the temps drop below 60, I’m done with tobacco for six months or so. I don’t smoke flavored cigars, but I don’t like it for those who do.
Welcome to the ‘all drugs are bad unless I do them’ mentality.
Yeah, it’s unfortunate. I understand it. The flavours do make smoking more enticing to young people, who might not limit themselves to one cigar a month like you do. But it does suck to ban something outright just because some people will misuse it. Mind you, nicotine is addictive, which is a pretty critical facet to this (though I don’t think anyone starts smoking without knowing this risk).
I dislike smoking in general and do want things that are good for society as a whole. But the logic of banning stuff like this seems similar to, say, banning fast food because some people will overeat (or more extreme, having calorie rationing so that people can’t overeat on any kind of food). It’s admittedly always a balancing act for how much danger is acceptable before we just ban it for everyone. Some bans using this logic are very reasonable, some aren’t, and many are extremely debatable.
I think I currently prefer the sin tax approach, especially since that best accomodates occasional usage. A hefty tax makes the dangerous thing less accessible to impressionable young people and helps pay for the social cost (though IIRC, smokers actually cost society less because they die younger, reducing the many medical costs of old age). Price influences people’s choices, too. If healthy food is cheaper than unhealthy food, that encourages buying healthy stuff. But even sin taxes are imperfect, especially in a vacuum. They can make the cost of living higher for a vulnerable population. They need to be planned carefully.
Tobacco is fucking horrible, but Menthol and other flavorings make it so much worse. They increase the likelihood of addiction massively.
And is always the case in public health, you don’t put in rules to cater to the edge cases, you put in rules to protect the majority affected.
Because Prohibition worked out so well they first time. But yes, let’s learn that lesson again, it’s not like we haven’t been having it reinforced over the last half-century with the War Ear Drugs.
But this time it will be different, right?
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Tell me you’re not a smoker without telling me you’re not a smoker.
You clearly have no idea how tobacco addiction works.
Prohibition doesn’t work. Mind your own fucking business.
I can tell that you’re addicted just by the vitriol in your response here.
Did you start of menthols and other flavored tobacco? Because that’s how a lot of people start. Which is why people are pushing for a ban, so others won’t be as hopelessly addicted as you are.
Fuck you.
It’s my choice.
Mind your own fucking business you fucking asshole.
Here, childhood obesity is a MUCH larger issue than smoking.
Go ban all the artificial flavorings that are in all of the different bowls of sugar, ahem, breakfast cereals, that are shamefully aimed at children in an effort to give them diabetes, just leave the aisle full of plain rasin bran.
Do that and I’ll believe it’s about health and the kids and not simply a power trip controlling another person’s choices.
A lifetime of doctors visits, insulin vials, insulin pumps, blood sugar meters, etc are bleeding this country FAR more than 80 year olds with lung cancer (that probably wasnt even caused by the tobacco).
Go ban all the artificial flavorings that are in all of the different bowls of sugar, ahem, breakfast cereals, that are shamefully aimed at children
We should do that, without question. Marketing candy to children as part of a balanced breakfast should be a crime.
Your last sentence, dude. 🤣 Way to ruin your credibility.
Are you suggesting that bad eating habits cause type 1 diabetes?
Wow, denying that tobacco causes cancer is a level of delusion that I had thought died out with the 5th or 6th Marlboro Man (who all died of cancer).
Do you want to know one of the causes of cancer from Tobacco? It might surprise you.
But you’ll ignore this because you’re hopelessly addicted to nicotine, one of the single most addictive chemicals known.
You try to deflect with whataboutisms, but guess what? People are trying to solve those health problems as well. You’re just pissed that they’re trying to solve one that affects your personal addiction.
In places where healthcare is vaguely civilized, your unhealthy addiction becomes my business because it comes with negative social externalities in the form of additional cost and strain on a public health service.
Edit: Spelling
This is an article and discussion specifically about a federal ban in the US. So, unless you live here, it’s not your business.
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That’s not even getting into the possible “fun suprises” we’ll have from all of the microplastics in our bodies.
Should we ban junk food then? How about a fat tax? I’d wager obesity is a far bigger strain on the healthcare system than smoking is.
Doesn’t sound very civilized at all.
Sounds judgy, controlling, biased, and miserable.
That’s what you get from government run healthcare
Exactly why I’m so strongly against government run healthcare
I personally was addicted before I ever had even a single puff, and plenty of others started the same way I did. I took a job to earn spending money as a 13 y/o kid cause I wanted Secret of Mana and that was a $60 or $70 game. So I went down the road to the nearest tobacco farm, and started stripping tobacco for $4.25 an hour. I left each 4 hour shift with about ½cm of black tar completely coating the palms and fingers of my hands. After two weeks cigarettes smelled good. I’m far from alone in this experience. So, no. Menthol and flavorings actually cause me to turn down cigarettes, I like the taste of tobacco.
You’re just being ignorant and holier than thou.
Do a lot of teens work on tobacco farms for their first exposure to nicotine? No, that was just you?
I mean, you also bring up the specter of unsafe child labor. That’s something else that we need to tackle, but we can also ban flavorings that make the tobacco more addictive to those who didn’t spend their childhood harvesting tobacco.
Yes. Of my graduating class of 300, about 100 of us worked on the tobacco farms. In tobacco country this is a very common way for teens to make money. Note, I was working because I chose to. That doesn’t fall under child labor. I’m sure some of the other teens were working because they had to.
You were a child who was working. That’s child labor. Full stop.
You also were exposed to harmful chemicals. Even if you “wanted” to be there, you should not have been.
So you worked, got a video game, and a lifelong addiction. And you think that was a good thing?
But it still doesn’t matter. Yours is an edge case. This proposed ban on flavorings for tobacco is meant to help prevent thousands from getting addicted in the first place.
Here’s how it works. A given teen will, at some point, try a cigarette. If it’s flavored, they are statistically more likely to try a second. If you ban flavorings, then that second cigarette will be less likely.
We know that nicotine is more addictive than pretty much any other chemical out there, but it’s not instantly addictive. The goal is to make smoking as unpleasant as possible. Which will also save the lives of some people who are currently addicted.
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We need to ban public health
Urgh, when they banned them in my country it was with this same stupid logic.
Now I don’t smoke (quit 15ish years ago) but this idea that anything flavoured somehow MUST be for the purpose of marketing towards children is insane. It manages to be wrong in two opposite ways:
One: This implies that anything with flavor is not for adults and everyone over the age of majority goes home to enjoy our grey flavourless mush.
Two: This implies that the flavors involved must be what appeals most to children. You know those menthol and whisky tipped smokes that all the children go nuts for.
This logic falls apart (both ways) when you look at any other legal market like booze, weed or vape.
It is almost as if after the US lost the war on drugs they want to try again on a smaller scale.
The flavour makes it so more people start. So it is good to ban it.
Does it? I have not been convinced. Also by that logic why should other not healthy things be flavoured? Why can you buy flavoured malt liquor, weed gummies, vapes or edible panties? With this same logic junk food should taste like sadness and regret for the future health of the children (won’t someone think of the children).
How this does not come off as ludicrous to anyone makes me question my own sanity. If smoking was such an issue and potential future addiction had to be stopped, banning the nicotine (you know the addictive) makes more sense then allowing the sale of the same addictive product as long as it does not taste minty.
Have you ever smoked a flavored cigar? Yeah, it tastes just like cherries or grape or cognac or whatever… right up until you light it. And then it tastes exactly like tobacco. Just like all other tobacco. Trust me, flavoring tobacco like anything is not the part that makes “children” want to keep smoking it.
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This is hypocrisy. Let people smoke whatever they want. We’re not living in the fifties, everybody and their mother knows nicotine kills.
What they don’t get is that not everybody has a wonderful life and wants to live forever.
There are bans in place for kids, and adults should have the right to decide what they want. Ban flavoured alcohol too then.
You know, I don’t really care what you smoke, but I care that it’s communal. Somebody drinking wine, beer, a white claw, etc a few feet away doesn’t immediately negatively impact my existence by depriving me of clean air … or cause a friend with breathing issues a panic attack.
Plenty of adults “decide” to smoke for kids by smoking with the kids around.
Plenty of adults “decide” to smoke in the entrances of buildings, on busy sidewalks, in an outdoor mall, etc.
Plenty of adults have “decided” to smoke because it’s “safe” per some anecdote that they heard about a family member that smoked 3 packs a day and lived to be 90.
It’s actually all pretty freaking infuriating. One of the best things that’s ever been done is banning smoking inside of most buildings.
At the very least the age should be raised to match alcohol.
We see fewer and fewer of the adults you mention with each passing day.
I recall as a child seeing adults smoking all the time. Now it’s a rare occurrence.
At the very least the age should be raised to match alcohol.
Jesus fucking christ, you people…
So the takeaway is that the health warnings are right?
Can you read?
The takeaway is that we don’t need further legislation against smoking. His use of the word ‘plenty’ isn’t accurate of reality.
We definitely need laws regulating salt intake, that much will kill you bro.
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/12/style/smoking-cigarettes-comeback.html?smid=nytcore-android-share
Yet, in 2020, for the first time in two decades, cigarette sales increased.
That’s not just an unsubstantiated “feeling.”
At the very least the age should be raised to match alcohol.
Jesus fucking christ, you people…
“You people” as if you know me.
In any case, the whole point of alcohol being 21 is that by 21 A) you’re not talking to that many people who are still in high school/not yet 18 and B) you should be making better decisions.
Which has a net effect of lowering the amount of people that engage in these behaviors, because it doesn’t spread as much in high schools.
Now, maybe that doesn’t work as well as “we” (society) thinks, but if we still think it’s a good idea for alcohol it absolutely should apply to cigarettes and vapes. Vaping was supposed to help people stop smoking, not create a whole new problem.
If you’re smoking cigarettes, and you’re proud or happy with that decision as an adult, you are an outlier among outliers. I can’t say I’ve ever met someone that smokes cigarettes that hasn’t tried to completely quit at least once (with the exception of the guy who believes “they’re completely safe” despite all the information to the contrary).
This isn’t alcohol where the majority is split between people that happily consume alcohol in small quantities vs a subset of alcoholics. This is a thing where it’s universally harmful to the smoker, to the people around them, to the environment (cigarette butts), etc. It’s also much more addictive than alcohol and marijuana where people need smoke breaks. It’s just a regrettable mess from when society didn’t know better.
Cigarette filters are also fucking gross compared to joints, assuming you aren’t using weird fancy shit for your joints. Joint filters are rolled up paper and biodegrade rather quickly (technically the whole joint is easily biodegradable). Cigarette butts last forever.
A friend tossed a cigarette butt into our bonfire last weekend and it turned the flames green lolol.
Me. I never even attempted to quit smoking. I know it kills. And I want to be left alone and not harassed by other people as if they’re saving my life or something.
It is my choice.
🥱
At the very least the age should be raised to match alcohol.
FYI it has been, on a Federal level (in the US), since 2019. Donald Trump of all people on Earth signed that into law. The legal age to buy cigarettes and to buy alcohol in the US is the same, 21.
Wow, I missed that. Good catch!
In some places it has been raised to match alcohol. NY is an example of that: https://www.health.ny.gov/prevention/tobacco_control/current_policies.htm#:~:text=Article 13-F Section 1399-CC of the NYS Public,under the age of 21.
Good.
Sorry but it’s a witch hunt at this point. And don’t get me started about drunk people wanting to grope me every time I go out.
Where I live, every workplace has a designated area where you can smoke. Indoor smoking is forbidden.
The drinking age here is 16, so is buying tobacco. There really aren’t that many smokers anymore. Most kids vape or smoke pot.
Also if your friend has asthma, I don’t know, stay away from smoking people you see? It can’t be that hard.
Also, I started smoking because I was bored. Now I keep smoking because I want to. I’ve actively stopped kids in my family from starting with it, so I’m not trying to say smoking is ok. Just leave us be.
What a stupid fucking comment lol.
Ironically nicotine doesn’t kill, bud. Smoking does. I get what you mean but there’s no downside to nicotine other than addiction strictly speaking
Sure I’m fine with both bans, alcohol not only kills yourself but many others too. The only reason it’s not illegal is because it’s ingrained in society.
The only reason it’s not illegal is because it’s ingrained in society.
What about the history we learned from when it was illegal?
You… did learn from history, right?
Could you clarify your point? You think flavored cigarettes are just as ingrained as alcohol?
I’m saying we already banned alcohol and it didn’t work out.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prohibition_in_the_United_States
Ah that’s all, thought you were going deeper.
People who think smokers smoke for the flavor are not in touch with reality. This will do nothing for public health.
I think it will. It will drive menthols underground and they’ll become more dangerous just like alcohol during Prohibition.
You can just buy menthol infusers online. This law will do nothing
Some start for the flavour which is the issue
Like every time this comes up, this is straight up racism.
If they actually cared about protecting children, they’d put quality control restrictions on the fluids used in vape pens to prevent popcorn lung and the like BECAUSE KIDS DON’T REALLY SMOKE CIGARETTES ANYMORE.
You know who disproportionately smokes menthols and flavored cigarellos?
Black people.
If they actually had something against smoking, they’d ban ALL CIGARETTES.
If they were actually trying to protect kids, they’d go after what kids are using.
They’re going after the smoke of choice for large portions of the black community.
What does that tell you?
Is it really, though? My country banned menthols ages ago, because it made cigarettes less nasty and thus easier to get into. Makes sense to me. We don’t have the amount of segregation here like in the US. At least not racially-based. Not saying there isn’t any, but it’s definitely not on the same level.
Is it really, though?
Unfortunately, historically speaking, in the U.S. it both is and has been.
It is virtually impossible to get into any discussion involving menthol cigarettes in america without also getting into a discussion about the black community they were specifically marketed towards.
Literally:
Tobacco companies offered grants to HBCUs, sponsored hip-hop and jazz music festivals, and supported civil rights institutions including the NAACP. In the 1980s, industry-sponsored vans distributed free cigarette samples in the streets of Houston’s Black neighborhoods. The program would later expand to 50 cities.
“A total of 1.9M samples will be distributed to targeted smokers in 1983,” industry officials wrote in a Kool Market Development Program document. “Sample distribution will be targeted to: housing projects, clubs, community organizations and events where Kool’s Black young adult target congregate.”
An R.J. Reynolds executive actually said: “We don’t smoke that s—t. We just sell it. We reserve the right to smoke for the young, the poor, the Black and stupid.”
The reason a targeted menthol/flavored ban is problematic is that since something like 85% of black smokers choose menthols…
…that means this ban gives police ANOTHER free ticket to harass just about any black man, woman, or child/teen they see smoking. They’d likely get away with calling it “probable cause” which is twelve kinds of fucked up.
If they cared about public health they would do one of two things:
1: Ban all cigarettes
2: Use awareness campaigns (THESE ARE PROVEN TO WORK, LOOK AT THE DECLINE OF THE YOUTH SMOKING RATE)
Given the other viable options it is really, really hard to see this as anything other than a racially targeted decision.
Yikes. Today I learnt, unfortunately…
If we don’t stand with smokers and stop the American Heart Association now, then by the time it comes to force us to eat right and exercise, it’ll be too late.
I’d love to stand with smokers, but standing makes me winded.
Have you run a marathon this week? No? Your medical insurance rates are 2x until you resolve this problem.
Non-menthol cigs are fine, we just can’t stand for the ones black people prefer.
Didn’t know I was black.
congratulations!
🥳
The only reason I ever smoked menthol was because of the rumor that they got you higher after smoking.
Sigh. The only good drugs are the ones I take.
Let’s stop policing what people put in their bodies, eh?
You can’t legislate morality, this isn’t going to make people smoke less it will make people grumpy while smoking
When they banned flavored cigarettes where I am, they had to make a carveout for menthol cigarettes. The claim at thie time was, banning menthol was racist because black people mostly smoke menthols. Early aughts ftr.
That’s hilarious. Next the ATF is going to bring back 4 loko because it’s ageist not to have preventable heart attacks in your teens.
Or you know, we could just regulate and test what goes into these products rather than create another black market for ones that will only inevitably be produced with even less quality overseas and imported
What the fuck?
I don’t smoke but isn’t flavored vape essentially the same and that is legal?
Lots of places are banning those too.
Which is really stupid, because they’re also banning the zero-nicotine ones that aren’t harmful and aren’t addictive (though may be habit-forming in the same way as snacking or drinking any beverage). Also they’re useful to people trying to quit smoking because even the ones with nicotine are far less harmful than smoking.
is it?
you have to invest quite a bit more than the $6 that a pack of menthol cigarettes is going to cost into a vaporizer setup.
vaporizers also dont use tobacco, but nicotine, and have varying levels of nicotine - some formulations have no nicotine. there’s also no tar or the 400+ chemicals involved with burning tobacco.
$6 that a pack of menthol cigarettes
Not sure where you are, but a pack is almost $25 here.
wow where is that?
New York. For better or worse, they’re essentially trying to tax people out of smoking.
Unless you’re going to a reservation any cigarettes you buy are going to be at least $15 a pack. The bigger the city the bigger the price.
$6 a pack was like 30 years ago
1993 I could get a pack of GPCs for $0.99. The name brands were about $2.00 a pack when bought as a carton. I remember watching the prices climb, hearing NYC was like $8.00, and I was like fuuuuuck.
It’s probably $6-7 in KY, NC, and SC still. I was in Lexington KY last year this time, and IIRC the packs were around that. I roll with a topomatic so I get pipe tobacco which runs $22 a pound in CA where I live, and was $13 a pound in KY. Just not for Camels, Newports, or Marlboro those are all like $10 in KY
Oh NC is like a magical land of good cigarette prices. If you’re a snowbird that doesn’t fly you’re stopping in NC and loading up.
There are very few places in the US where a pack of cigarettes is $15+
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Disposable vapes should be illegal for sure. Everywhere. Like it’s not fucking hard to change a coil. It’s not hard to even wrap a coil and change a cotton wick. Disposables are the shittiest laziest things and create insane amounts of waste, like you said.
Quick edit: make your own juice, wrap your own coils, and vaping is basically free from then on.
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There are flavoured cigars?
I don’t know about “real” cigars, but they make the ones people roll blunts with in a bunch of different flavors like vanilla and grape.
“Real” cigars tend to be flavored with things like whisky or other alcohols. But anyone who draws an arbitrary line defining what is and isn’t a real cigar, it starts to feel gatekeepy, so I just live and let live. If someone smokes grape cigars and enjoys them, more power to them.
Totally agree! I guess “regular” cigar would have been better? I smoke both cigars and blunts and have no issue with either, I just don’t know what they call the wrap ones.
I used to smoke flavored cigarettes. When they were made illegal where I live they were modified and re-released as flavored cigarillos(mini cigars).
They were similar, but different enough that I no longer enjoyed smoking them.
Blunt wraps are what these are mainly targeting I imagine (Backwoods, Swisher Sweets, White Owls)… BUT Acid cigars are pretty nice and the brand I always point out. They used to advertise in cigar magazines back when I would read them and would feature interesting rolling methods that leaned in to the name. (Cheaper end as far as cigars go)
