Ok, imagine this, you are on reddit (say, a slow hobby focused subreddit), everybody there is nice and knowledgeable, and one day, the mods there announced that since there is not enough “content” on the sub, they are going to use a bot to repost content from 9gag in order to “bolster engagement” and “grow the community”.
How would you feel about that?
If you feel upset and grossed out, you’re exactly right.
I don’t think there is a single non-spam subreddit where that kind of behavior would be tolerated without being called out for blatant mod abuse. No community in the world would ever tolerate automated reposting from another website, not reddit, not 4chan, not any forums of any size, even 9gag, I repeat, BLOODY 9GAG, was tired of being called out for reddit reposting and started making original content.
So why exactly should this kind of behavior be tolerated here?
Now, I’m sure some mods here did it with good intentions, but again, the road to the hell that is modern reddit is PAVED with good intentions. Content for the sake of content is bad, and we already knew it is bad, which is why Gallowboob was so thoroughly disliked, he generates “”“”““content””“”“”, in other words, spam that drowns out the normal people who can’t compete with a professional marketer, much less a bot, which is exactly the reason why “Just block the bots” doesn’t work, because it ruins the genuine engagements on a forum by drawing people to the lowest common denominator of “”“”“”“”“”“content”“”“”“”“”“”“”.
Reddit, over the years, has turned into a platform for “bolstering engagement” for advertisers, and it does that by algorithmically stoking conflicts between people so they would endlessly argue and doomscroll. Why would we want that here? Now, I think most of us like the Lemmy/kbin right now because of the lack of bots here, and the conversations happen naturally and genuinely. I’ve even seen people here try to engage the bots, not realizing that they would never get a response out of them, because it felt normal to just talk about things.
(Eat your robot hearts out, @L4s and @BotIt)
Suppose then, if this repost bot situation was indeed temporary, why would people want to make original content if they are just going to be drowned out by bots? What’s to stop someone from turning on bots from /r/dankmemes or /r/tiktokcringe? The bots are not members of the community, because they are not people (save the /r/botsright joke for more appropriate times), and over time, we will just become dependent on the bots hosing us down directly from that burning dumpster fire and become doomscrolling addicts again.
That’s the number two lesson from the failure of Voat: that repost bots, like hate, should also not be tolerated, and Reddit will never die if we keep feeding it.
Everybody here are still currently all “Oh fuck reddit, fuck spez, I deleted my reddit account and all of my comments and will never go back again”, but after finally getting away from reddit, why are you so insistent on trying to turn this place back to the worst part of reddit again?
And if the reddit migration on July 1st does indeed occur, do you think they would be ecstatic to see a place that’s mostly reddit reposts, but with less “”“”“”“”“”“”“”“”“”“content”“”“”“”“”“”“”“”“”“”? If they wanted reddit, why wouldn’t they just go back to reddit?
When will we finally be rid of reddit, if we are the ones keeping it on life support?
I will say, if I sound frustrated, it’s because I am frustrated, because I actually can’t believe I even had to say this. Judging from the comments on this thread yesterday, I think a majority of people here would agree with me. We have something good here, and I’d like to keep it that way a bit longer.
Now, I very much appreciate that our admins here at lemmy.world and their amazing job of preemptively blocking suspicious bot infested instances, so I’m asking politely for @ruud, @Antik and the rest of our good admin team here to put their foot down on not allowing reddit repost spambots and nip this problem in the bud before it takes root, so I can get back to shitposting in peace.
Be better than reddit.
Burn reddit down.
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Hi!
We actually had a talk about bots this week between admins and some mods!
There was a bot from Lemmy.online that did nothing but import Reddit threads to their instance and when we checked they imported nearly 40k threads from different subreddits. All these threads were posted into communities where the Lemmy.online bot was the only moderator. So that would mean there would be actually zero moderation there and it would ultimately fall on us as admins. So we blocked that bot and instance. We nipped that one right in the bud already!
We are still discussing in where to draw the line, ofcourse there are useful bots: I like those tldr-bots for example. But those should only be active in communities where they have been activated by the moderators.
As you probably noticed this week has already been a big one on the part of decision making and behind the scenes work trying to get this instance updated to 0.18.1 and such, so we didn’t finish talking about this amongst the LW team yet. So yes, feel free to express your thoughts on bots and how you feel this should be handled in this thread and you can be sure everything here will be considered.
Hi Antik! Appreciate you for listening to mine and many people here’s concerns. My thoughts on this is pretty clear, I don’t want bots here, but I will concede that the tl;dr bot is useful to others, even though I don’t personally use it, so it should stay where it’s needed.
However, having a bot running around reposting 5 articles a minute from reddit sets a very dangerous precedent for the quality and community here, and the moderators that set them up usually don’t even check what they are posting as they are automated feeds, they have comments calling the article out, but of course, there won’t be any response from a bot.
A lot of it is just ragebait from /r/politics and fearmongering bait from /r/technology. I just don’t want that feeling of awfulness here, and I think many would agree with me too.
The consensus so far was a bit like this: as long as the bot is in a channel that is actively moderated and not just spamming as you say “5 articles per minute”, then that would be ok. We’re still a bit unsure where to draw the line here, as I said we haven’t really finished that discussion yet - this week has already been quite eventful.
But even yesterday I received a report from a bot that reported a post from a user who simply said they were “having a shitty day” as “Toxic and Rude”. Those kind of bots will only give us more work with the false positives. So I reached out to the owner of that bot and told them we definitely didn’t want that kind of “help”.
My concern is that usually those bots are setup by the moderators of communities, such as @[email protected] or botit on WorldNews here, and, of course, if they are the ones that set it up, then they will not exert any oversight onto them.
(Again, I don’t think they did it with bad intentions, so don’t attack them please.)
I think that would just lead to what we disliked about reddit’s power mods in that they control the full content to push onto everyone, because they are faster.
Again, my stance on this is that Lemmy should be a place for human beings, and we should minimize the use of bots to what’s only necessary, there’s enough places on the internet for bots to post spam, so automated content repost, especially from reddit, needs to be stopped.
Thanks for blocking that instance.
I tried to explain to their admin why the entire concept was bad for the fediverse but they didn’t seem to understand.
People can do whatever they want with their instances, but something like that should defederate themselves and live in a void.
That isn’t the way to try and build content or community over here. We have the high ground. We don’t need to stoop down to their level.
All these threads were posted into communities where the Lemmy.online bot was the only moderator.
That’s the heart of the problem for me. 40k posts with zero moderation is a problem.
There’s a bot I’ve been seeing these past couple of days that is constantly reposting posts with the title cut off in half. Like, it’d just cut it off mid sentence and replace the rest with three dots. I think it’s called @[email protected]
My apologies, it is due to the character limit as far as I understand it.
We nipped that one right in the bud already!
Please see https://lemmy.world/post/863082
Fwiw, I suggested curation ( in response to op) as a solution to the problems the repost bots bring. Human curation to control a bot works very well. I did it at r/goodlongposts for a few years until spez shit the bed over the API. Obviously, a bot like lemmy.online needs a full team to handle the flow, but there’s plenty of folks the would be willing to dip their toes into lemmy moderation like that, if only to learn the ropes for real moderation.
So, if you wanted to allow bot based reposting from reddit, pairing that with humans supervising would be a good option on a human driven instance like yours. Shit, I’d curate one just to contribute, and I’m kinda burnt on moderation overall.
Totally agree - when the server was quiet and empty it was one thing, but the server isn’t quiet or empty anymore.
It’s annoying seeing memes reposted by bots (people can do that just fine all on their own), but I’ve seen stuff like AITA threads - the OP isn’t even here to read it… Is the idea to judge people behind their backs?
I found it extra upsetting because I’m hoping the Lemmy version will be more like AITA using to be - it turned from “who is the problem here” to “did you have the right to do this”
We’re not on reddit here, we can just call out AITA for the cesspool of lazy creative writing and the absurdly judgemental responses it always was. Nothing like that sub that embodies the worst of reddit should make it over here.
Like a lot of people here on Lemmy, I was on reddit for 10+ years… and I’d say for a couple of years that half of redit are reposts… the same pic, the same caption, and often the same top comments reposted by bots to gain karma.
At one time I was blocking reposters but now that there’s certainly hundreds of bots doing it, it’s harder.
I will not miss reddit.
And we need to prevent this place from turning into reddit, and getting rid of the repost bots is the first item on the list.
Absolutely! There is even an instance that reposts every reddit posts, but it has ben deferedated by about anyone IIRC
I posted a few days ago about this and got tons of agreement that it’s at least dumb, really hoping we can get the admins to stop this shit. Manually blocking them myself as they show up is a losing war.
The admins here have been very reasonable so far, and I hope they will see this as a serious issue that would affect all of us here. This needs to be addressed at that level, because the content here will always tend drift to the lowest effort garbage, but only if we let it.
There is a setting to not show bots.
- The bots that repost reddit were not properly marked as bots.
- I’ve stated why “just block them if you don’t want to see them” doesn’t work, because they are by nature, attention sucking black holes that ruin the feeling of community by splitting them and drawing them into low effort content.
In jerboa at least, the boys are disabled by default and you have to turn them on yourself to view them
Well I don’t want all bot accounts disabled, I would like to be able to see useful bots. These are not useful.
In jerboa at least, the boys are disabled by default and you have to turn them on yourself to view them
This is the best typo. Please keep it.
I agree. Bots should only be allowed if they show exceptional utility to the community.
Yeah, nobody really needs a bot that counts how many times you say “this” or smugly correcting your grammar. It was so awful there at reddit.
BEEP BOOP
Hello there, I’m amicable-bot!
You just did a heckin no no by using the word “sm*g”.
It’s important to remember that the use of language like this can be demeaning to others.
You’re welcome for the helpful information, and have a great day!
BEEP BOOP
I think a vein popped on my head just from reading that.
Bad bot
I hated the grammar correcting bots, because I often misspell things due to being dyslexic. Or I used the wrong words, because I’d be trying to write in a language that wasn’t my first one. It got old reaaaal fast.
I can’t imagine how deflating it would be to write a decent reply or comment onto a post, logging in an hour or so later to see a reply for you to then go to read it and it’s nothing but a bot saying “YoU sHoUlD hAvE uSeD YoU’rE nOt YoUR” or some shit.
Didn’t ever like them but you’ve made me hate them even more.
Oh yeah, it was seriously terrible. I’d log off for the rest of the day sometimes, because I’d be having a decent conversation and then get some stupid bot reply that was a reminder of the fact that I have a disability that I have no control over. It really wears on you after a while, not to mention the people who I’d be having a debate with in comments and instead of focusing on what I was trying to say, they’d focus on my grammar mistakes, but that’s another issue entirely. It’s also completely demoralising when I’m trying my very best to communicate and learn, and then you’re just hit with rude people and condescending bots.
I hated them too. It’s rude and unpleasant to interrupt a conversation between other people so you can correct their grammar.
And if we let them, they’ll turn us rude and hateful too.
I hated them too. It’s rude and unpleasant to interrupt a conversation between other people so you can correct their grammar.
Hi! For clarity, consider rephrasing the sentence in order to avoid the use of the indeterminate second-person pronoun! Try: “Interrupting a conversation between other people in order to correct their grammar is rude and unpleasant.”
(Sorry, I couldn’t help it.)
I hated them because 99% of the time they were jaw-droppingly wrong.
One of the frequently wrong ones used to give snarky replies if you opted out, too. Whoever wrote it must be insufferable.
I think it adds character. I didnt like when they were global, but when they hung around certain subreddits it gave flavor to the place
Limited and local are the keywords here though
I see. The difficulty is keeping them limited and local.
Besides, wouldn’t you want to be the one to make the funny comment instead of a bot?
I mean, keeping them local is easy - if anything much easier. I like the idea of summoning them, maybe a mod summoning and banishing them to have them watch a community
And bots shouldn’t be acting like humans, they should be doing things only they could or should do. Like haiku bot, n-word bot, things like tallying votes for AITA, or even tracking nominations and building best of communities
They were misused on Reddit, but we can do more with them here. Probably starting a goodbot that messages admins so they can stay ahead of the inevitable bot explosion
Let’s define what “value” looks like.
To me there are three major categories or bots.
- reposting bots
- “correction” bots (aka grammar bots)
- link cleanup/reminder bots
To me, the first has minimal value, the second can rot in hell, and the third is what we should encourage.
People set them up to help grow communities by having a lot of content but it just kills them instead. I opened a Linux gaming community and it was 95% just bot reposts from the Linux gaming subreddit, all with zero comments and 1 or maybe 2 up votes per post. It just makes you not want to comment at all cause what is the point?
I came to Lemmy to get away from reddit, bot reposts just funnel traffic back to reddit. The endless reposts just leads to the one conclusion of “Oh, this is all just links to reddit, I should just go directly to reddit as it will be a better source for this content.”
Meanwhile I stumbled upon another community that barely had any posts and it has much more interaction because the few users that -are- there feel much more included. In the early 2000s I was part of several forums that really only had about 10 active members, but they were active and eventually saw growth. People join and see a small group of people talking and then join in the conversation.
Oh, absolutely. I’m taking care to respond to everything in this thread right now because I want us to not be reddit and be a real community.
Beware… borderline elitist thought below.
There’s a group of well-meaning folks (more than I am comfortable with) who want EVERYONE to come over from reddit. A subset of those have decided that the best way to do this is by mirroring content.
THAT IS THE LAST THING I WANT ON ANY TIMELINE.
I came here to GTFO of a forum aggregator that became a corpo-coopted hellscape of shitposts, bots, and shouting into the void; and I sure as hell don’t want anyone to bring that shit over here.
A miniscule fraction of users on reddit post, comment, or even help to rank content in any valuable way. The rest detract from any sense of community, clutter conversations.
They need not be placated, invited, or made to feel at home here.
They still have reddit.
Let them use it.
They LIKE it.
Exactly. They can choose to come here, but if they want to go down with the ship, let them.
But I don’t want them to drag us down with them.
Don’t get me wrong, I want reddit to feel the pain for saying the quiet part loud, and clear. I hope there’s something/somewhere else people can go to do it.
Most people just want a place to shout at one or two other people over bot posted, polarizing ragebait. I don’t, but they have several other places that are already established.
They don’t need threaded discussion because no longform/non-topical discussion is happening:
They typically don’t reply to others (or even a second time) unless they’ve gone full tilt. Even then, the opinions they don’t like are usually blocked forever after that single exchange .
My personal feelings about musk aside - twitter (if it increased the character limits) would be PERFECT for the overwhelming majority of reddit users. Mayyyybe mastodon.
So many communities are just full of it with no comments. Pretty sure it’s putting people off posting too.
Exactly my point. It’s a horrible, inhuman feeling to have that seep in here.
People don’t get it. We don’t need another reddit, this fight is about putting down shitty corporate practices. People just want their echo chamber dopamine fix.
Exactly. We need to stop this place from becoming a corporate hellhole for marketing firms, and you have to ban the bots.
I agree, I personally don’t want them, I like talking to people. I brought it up when they first started spamming, and I blocked lemmit. It was actually the first time i ever blocked anything lol. Out of my control after that, but it’s definitely important to talk about it. I don’t think we need them. Been having fun so far.
Fwiw, if the posts rolled in way slower, with no bot tags, it probably would have flown under the radar lol.
I’m glad you are having fun here, we all are, and I feel free after being away from the awfulness there, and I’d like to keep this place feeling fun for a while.
I went back today for a last hurrah, and it’s pretty terrible, diffrrent energy. I couldnt tell if it was always like that or just a perspective change for me…and the best/worst part is I can see this easily devolving. But there are baked in work arounds…I imagine a lot of settling and splintering into smaller instances/communities as everyone blocks/subs over time. I personally like smaller communities, but am unsure where I’d settle to, because I largely avoid people. I’m quite new to social media tbh. I could even see lemmy being the reason that I stop coming on the internet altogether(in a good way). I can dream, right? Can I have my Vo5 back before I go, though? (:
But serious talk, you are just used to have humanity here at Lemmy, and you only saw how awful that place was from the outside after you’ve experienced something better.
Yea I think what happend at reddit is just inevitable with enough people, in most situations ime…yes your mostly right. My comments are usually heartfelt at least, but it was easier than I like to admit to find myself, even today, reducing my words down to some hot take, self depreciating, short tempered jab at nothing. Which is why I prefer smaller communities (: I kind of started my whole life over a year ago, and that’s when I started using reddit more than as google search. I quickly began ignoring my inbox completely out of anxiety. I am only a baby 1 year old, with a shit load of trauma, and lots of learning to do. You like to write, don’t you? Me too.
I was NOT wine-drunk in the shower last night, nobody saw anything, and I will deny it if you ask me about it in person.
The actor (actress) agrees to conduct himself (herself) with due regard to public conventions and morals and agrees that he (she) will return Vo5 Shampoo™️ and not commit anything tending to degrade him (her) in society or bring him (her) into public hatred, contempt, scorn …
-Morals Clause
I’ll see you in court.
Oh bugger.
It’s going to come to a grinding halt when those bots lose API access July 1st
Most of them don’t use the API afaik
Good, I hope they die.
Just another way Reddit decisions will help Lemmy grow - can’t get drowned in repost bots if they’re cut off at the knees :)
I started blocking the bots. They’re annoying AF.
I will talk because lifting content from Reddit is how mildly Infuriating got its feet off the ground in the first place, and has the subscriber count it has.
It hasn’t relied only on that, I have been finding my own original content and posting it there myself but it’s hard when I feel I am the only one actively contributing. Many people here still are very much lurkers and will only want to scroll through what other people post and not make their own content.
There isn’t anything wrong with that, but you are going to find people won’t keep coming back without things to keep them interested.
That said context matters, there is a difference between a hobbiest community, and somewhere like mildly Infuriating where it’s a place to just share things that mildly Infuriates people. Whether right or wrong, I do not see an issue with Reddit reposts or reposts from anywhere but I hope more people do actually create content… And I also hope the people in this thread who are against Reddit reposts are actively engaging communities themselves or you aren’t really setting up these communities for success.
I do not agree with bot reposting, I feel that would end in diminishing returns anyway, whilst you have mountains of content, you have too much content and it doesn’t give people enough time to build up discussions and drowns out people who will legitimately post their own threads. Meaning you will likely not see anyone bother posting at all.
In the end… Banning outright, doesn’t feel right. Having them exist as their own places, whilst not something I 100% agree with don’t think getting the pitchforks out and wanting them to disappear is the answer when you can make your own community on another instance and grow it organically. Then block ones that you don’t like. Which you will be doing regardless as we have federated instances that will not align with you morally/ethically anyway until they are eventually defederated if at all.
Not having Karma also didn’t feel right originally either. But it ended up making this place way better.
I don’t want to be rude, but let me ask you this question: Why should I move to another instance instead of doing all we can to stop this place from turning into reddit? Why should I move to Mars instead of trying to stop climate change from destroying us all?
To be a redditor is to despair. Despair is the enemy of progress.
In a place as vast as the fediverse can be and at such early stages you have the power to make bigger changes than you would on Reddit.
You have the power to shape the culture of Lemmy, can you ask the owners of these communities to change course? Absolutely.
Do they have to oblige? No, not unless the instance rules dictate they have to, but that is entirely at the discretion of the instance admins. Then there are a lot of instances each with their own rules and culture.
I think you’re being hyperbolic, but you will have diverse opinions on this matter, and the only right answer is what results in foot traffic for the Fediverse and drives interest. In the end our goals are the same but done differently.
My answer to why should you move is, you are going to need to change the mind of every potential new person who joins with an idea to lift content from Reddit, I commend you if you have the time to do that, but I personally don’t. It’s easier to shape the culture of a website when you have a level of influence to be an example to what is the gold standard so to speak.
You also have to be very careful because there is an elitest attitude that might push people away from Lemmy entirely.
deleted by creator
I respectfully disagree, as I think you are mistaken. I cannot change the mind of everyone, and I know I can’t change the minds of everyone.
But I will not let attempts at perfection stop progress, because to do so is to be a defeatist, so even if I helped just one person, it would have been worth it to me, and I’ve been very consistent on that here.
I’ve stated my points and I have nothing more to add. This is an impass in my eyes. There are multiple methods but we both have the same goal to preserve and bolster the Lemmy platform as a whole which there is nothing wrong with but I am hard set on where I stand on this. Good talk
Understandable. Have a nice rest of your day.
Yea I think bot posting and rehosting content from reddit has served its purpose but come July should be dialed down significantly.
Even if it isn’t reddit content, bot posting should be restricted. There are niche examples where it’s beneficial. Eg, Daily Stock Tickers, Geolocal weather, or weekly Q&A threads, but those are clearly different than just content aggregation.
Comment bots also provide value. I agree grammar/etc bots are annoying but as long as people can easily block/delete their comments its okay. Prequel memes chat bots were hilarious and if a community wants them they should be allowed.
People are what makes internet forums fun. Keeping lemmy.world a space for human interactions is important.
I agree, they are annoying to see and there is more content coming from local users now
