Ok. I’ll bite. Even though I believe this conversation will go nowhere.
Differences I have seen in work ethic between the 90s and today:
Constantly complaining about being broke but refusing to work any overtime.
Refusing to do anything outside the scope of their job duties. Even if it’s something small and won’t take any extra time or energy off their current job duty.
Demanding or taking long breaks causing others to pick up their slack. And then acting like the victim.
Overly emotional about deadlines and jobs duties. Making decisions based on their feelings and not the job/project at hand.
People then would usually figure out solutions to problems without any supervision. Ingenuity was rewarded and favored. Today, people seem to prefer to be micro-managed. This could also be a change in employer culture as well.
Entitlement culture/attitude. More people today believe they are owed something without earning it. Hierarchical structures were more rigid, with clear distinctions between management and staff. Respect for authority was expected.
Employees were more likely to stay with one company for years or even decades, building loyalty and expertise within their organization.
I guess I could go on. And not all of this is due to employees, rather, management issues that have gotten worse over time. But I still believe the root cause is a negative change in people’s work ethic. This is obviously not all inclusive. These are just some examples of what I’ve noticed between now and then. I have been working full time since the 90s. Yes, it’s anecdotal. But you asked me. This is my opinion. It’s okay if people don’t agree with me. But I would find it hard to believe most people would disagree with all or some of these points especially if they have been working as long as I have.
wtf… so tired of being told i have no work ethic, when i probably work more than you ever had to at my age, for peanuts. I will never own a home. my company doesn’t give two fucks about me. I can’t even afford glasses, i can’t go to the doctor. but i should be kissing feet and never complaining? your mentality is what killed opportunity in my generation. like, “people prefer to be micromanaged?” how can you possibly think that
If people were payed more most of those problems would evaporate. There used to be a middle class in this country that made enough money to justify dealing with their boss’s bullshit expectations. Now everyone is getting the bare minimum and management wonders why they’re getting minimum effort. If you want people to have a better work ethic it has to be worth it for them. Dangle a fuckin carrot once in a while, you know?
If money was an issue, I would simply find a higher paying job. I’m not owed anything. I’m trying to do the best I can just like everybody else. I’ve never agreed 100% with what management does. I’m just happy to have a decent job that pays decently. I wasn’t handed this automatically. I worked my way up to it. I earned it.
I’m not saying you didn’t work to get where you are, but if you ignore completely the chance and luck you had, then you’re just arguing in bad faith.
Even more so if you can’t see that people entering the workforce now have less chances and need more luck to get where you feel you worked hard to get.
I don’t rely on luck. Too risky. I do what I have to do and use what I’m given to make the best of my situation. Complaining and blaming others got me nowhere. I’m simply pointing out what I’ve witnessed over the last three decades.
The fact that I am using my high tech device to entertain myself by replying to your comment that you made using your high tech device to entertain yourself means that we are both in the upper percentiles of luckiest humans to ever have lived.
I am sitting at my engineering job that I really like as I type this. I have a bachelors degree and two masters degrees. I have worked for this shit, and I have pushed through my chronic disease despite seeing images of the literal brain damage I have from it. I am STILL extremely fortunate to be where I am. Most humans who have ever been born literally had no path to get here regardless of their health or upbringing. And I’d guess that the same is true for a majority of today’s living humans.
And I do not mean those statements with a negative connotation. You should take some of that innate positive outlook you have for the world and develop a feeling of being grateful for your good fortune in life. It’s literally good for you.
To pretend that your situation is solely because of your positive attributes as an individual is pretty arrogant and not conducive to personal growth.
I don’t rely on luck. Too risky. I do what I have to do and use what I’m given to make the best of my situation.
You may not rely on luck, but do you recognize that you are at least the beneficiary of luck? You could be the exact same person you are born at two different times (or even the same time in two different geographies), and have drastically different opportunities available to you.
I didn’t downvote you even though I disagree with you.
All of the examples you gave of differences have a distinct difference between working in the 90s and now. In the 90s we did all of the things you cite aren’t happening today because it paid off with something better later. It could be a raise in pay, a promotion, or even just experience that could be leveraged at a future job earning more. It was also the time of the final Gen-X’ers entering the workforce, and there were far fewer of us than prior generations that age. This meant there was at least a form of scarcity of entry level workers so anyone that wanted a job could get one that would cover their basic bills. Employers would also train entry level people because there weren’t other options for bodies to do the jobs. We put up with being treated like crap in the hierarchy because we saw that if we worked the hierarchy we would rise. We took risks professionally that would be innovative or creative that created a great product for our employer that would frequently work out. If the professional risk didn’t pay off, we’d likely still be employed or at worst could get another job of near the same level without issue.
In short, we did all of those things in the 90s for the promise of a better tomorrow, and back then, there was one. Workers today know there isn’t a better tomorrow, likely only a worse one. So why should they take the same risks we did professionally if they are not only far less likely to benefit, and are in a much more precarious position with far higher debts (student loans) and far few resources (lack of savings or real estate ownership)?
I’ve heard that argument being made before. That people don’t think there is a better tomorrow. I suppose I could blame it partially on the doom scrolling people do daily on their phones. Personally speaking, I believe there are always opportunities and a better tomorrow.
I’ve heard that argument being made before. That people don’t think there is a better tomorrow. I suppose I could blame it partially on the doom scrolling people do daily on their phones.
A younger worker today can do zero doom scrolling and still see their 6 figure student loan debt statements every month. They can look at their take-home pay after subtracting their high living expenses then checking the cost of real estate to see that owning a home going to be perpetually out-of-reach. They can look at the last 4-5 years of their income and see that any appreciation going forward isn’t likely to change their situation.
Personally speaking, I believe there are always opportunities and a better tomorrow.
This is another change from the 90s to today. In the 90s it was a given that there are opportunities and a better tomorrow. We were raised with actual first hand experience of optimism in the working world. For today’s younger workers it has declined to a possibility of opportunities and a better tomorrow. Don’t discount Millennials that entered the workforce right as the Financial Crisis of 2007-2008 was starting. As young adults in the 90s as GenX, we had nothing like that. The worse we had was the dotcom bubble burst in 1999 or 2000, and even then it just meant finding another jump of which there were many. Gen Z saw Millennials trying to be successful do what we Gen X-ers did and failing (because the game had changed). Is it any wonder Gen Z isn’t even trying to play the old game when they see the game is now stacked against them?
I also see this student loan thing being tossed around all the time. If people don’t intend to pay them back, then don’t take out a loan. It’s really that simple. Stay out of debt. I can’t stand banks. I loathe them. I refuse to owe a bank or anybody else for that matter any money. The public has been sold a lie. I used to be in a bad situation like what you’re describing. I woke up one day and told myself enough is enough. I’m sick of the debt. I’m sick of blaming everybody else for my shortcomings. I paid off all my debts, bought a house, paid that off and now I try and save as much as I can. I didn’t wait for anybody to rescue me. Nobody is gonna rescue me. The government, a bank, family. Nobody. I’m responsible for my own actions and I take accountability. The only way people can change their situation for the better is to think positively and work hard towards your goals. I don’t know of any other way.
I see you’re somewhat fixated on the “attitude problem” bit, but you’re conveniently leaving out the circumstances. The labor situation right now is starting to swing back to how it was in say, the 19th and 20th centuries.
Oh yeah, they’re trying to bring back all the classics: Smashing unions, company towns paying in company scrip, child labor, inhuman working hours, dangerous factories, you name it.
That you had the opportunity to decide you were sick of things sucking and just go do something about it, is a privilege you didn’t have control over. You did have control over recognizing and seizing those opportunities. But this can be an uncomfortable distinction because it somewhat undermines the “I did it all by myself with sheer grit and chest hair” narrative.
I’m what they’d call a "millennial " and I see lots of your points in my experience. I see younger people who are absolutely mind boggling with being unable to problem-solve, for instance, and I also see oldies who, in 2025, have avoided learning anything new since they graduated highschool in the 70’s or something, and simply get mad or frustrated that things have changed instead of doing something about it. I’ve also seen complete geniuses that were like 12 years old repairing their own electronics.
My point being, there have always been pragmatic people and helpless-by-choice people.
I agree there’s lots of avenues to funding for school that don’t involve a loan, but that’s not cut and dry either. If a decent school isn’t in their neighborhood they can’t crash with mom and dad, for instance. If it’s out of state? Man, how the heck couldn’t you take out a loan?
There’s also the time factor. To work enough to get you through school without taking a loan, if you didn’t get SIGNIFICANT grant money, you wouldn’t have time for school, unless maybe you were okay with your Bachelor’s being a 6-8 year degree.
Ah. Time.
People are working earlier now too. They can’t just “defer adulthood” to go to school instead. Heck, some states were bringing back child labor shortly after COVID! I wonder how many of those kids will afford school with money or time.
They’re on a treadmill they can’t step off, because their family probably needs the money they pull in, because so many jobs disappeared, and education is so abysmal people can’t shift their skills when that job disappears.
To add to that crap-sandwich, their hours are worth less, and they’re expected to do more work with less coworkers because labor is expensive and management is cheap.
Nowadays the reward for hard, exceptional work, is more work and a higher expectation, and if you’re REALLY convincing, like $.08+ an hour. I’m not even kidding. Statistically, you are an expendable “human resource”, not a valued asset.
Observe how the common knowledge now is “The best way to get a raise is to switch jobs.” Loyalty is punished.
Overtime? Ha! Most jobs put a lot of effort into making sure you work really hard right up to that line, and will actually penalize you if you try to go over it. Other jobs find ways around it, like slapping you with a laughably low (they’ll call it “competitive”) “exempt” salary.
Maybe, just maybe, in the 90’s, workers were still somewhat respected and valued. Today they’re a cost to minimize in any way possible to please shareholders with upward-jaggy lines.
People have a shitty work ethic because they see through the crap. Working a job in the modern age is what business folk would call “a raw deal.”
If we look at this through a Great American Entrepreneurial lens, going by numbers and common sense…working a job is foolish, and only marginally better than not having one at all.
If anything the younger generations are getting more clever about sourcing income from wherever they can, with endless “side hustles.” Because their bosses sure as hell won’t pay them.
(Fun fact: Wage theft is the most prominent form of theft!)
Sadly there’s a cost to that hustling “work ethic” to keep everything together. Skyrocketing lonliness and suicide rates.
It’s easy to jump on “doomscrolling zoomers” but we also need to consider that the Internet is merely a communication platform, and look at WHY we have a world that causes literal children to develop a sardonic collective humor about “burning oceans (again)” and “dying in the climate wars”, and never retiring, or owning a house, and that having a family is not only out of reach, but cruel and irresponsible hubris under a world of rapidly decaying empires locked in constant bloody conflicts at the behest of private interests.
So, I’m glad things worked out for you. I’m being sincere here. I’m glad loyalty paid off, and you could do something with your life. May the rest of your days be long and prosperous and full of love and cheer.
But I also warn that you’d be taking a path of intentional ignorance to refuse to acknowledge that most of those escape ropes you had to improve your situation are either terribly frayed or long-rotted for a vast majority of people now, and it’s simply cruelty to call them lazy for struggling to adapt without the societal tools of their ancestors, or to call them ungrateful and entitled for telling their wanna-be-lord bosses to go screw themselves after being exploited over and over, whilst everyone calls them “lazy.”
Wow that was a lot. Forgive me for not replying with as much. I don’t have the time.
My only question to all of this is, what is your solution to these problems? If it involves the government, then I have news for you. The government isn’t going to help anybody. My point being if these problems you say exist and are such huge problems, then what is the answer? How does society solve it? I’ve tried to answer these questions myself and it always comes back to asking myself one question. What can I DO TODAY, to make things better for myself and my family?
No problem, I’m aware that I tend to essay-out into a ramble on these tough topics. Thanks for hearing me out!
So, “my solution”: idealistically? Worker organizing. I see a resurgence of unions which is very inspiring, and they’ve been effective at winning decent pay and benefits. The news has been quietly ignoring and underplaying strike waves across the nation (and the world), because it makes their bosses nervous. They’re also ignoring the absolutely blatant retaliation against strikers from corporations.
(Remember 19th and 20th centuries all over again? Thankfully they’re not bringing in PMCs and riot cops for strikers…yet.) If anybody is “entitled without earning it”, it’s the corpos who feel entitled to cheap complicit bodies for their profit machines.
The government isn’t going to help anybody.
Especially not this one. God help us.
Reagan’s measures to prevent certain industries from striking, like air traffic controllers, and recently seen with railway workers, is just one of many ways the pro-capital government keeps the workers from getting too “uppity.”
Returning to a New Deal economic policy would help immensely. But 50’s red-scare and trickle-down propaganda is still sunk in deep.
What can I DO TODAY, to make things better for myself and my family?
Short answer? Band together and survive. The “screw you, got mine” individualism/exceptionalism myth has destroyed our culture and made us a nation of suspicious strangers. Perfect for selling garbage to and farming labor from.
So we need to involve our neighbors and coworkers in mutual support. You’re right, the government won’t help, your boss won’t help. Who’s left?
Just “keeping my head down and looking out for me and mine” is how we get picked off. This is also why media thinktanks love to stoke identity politics. It gets people infighting instead of massing.
So I’m just doing what I can to do my own thing, and survive, and getting people talking, and loving my neighbor as myself as much as I can, and trying not to feel powerless against overwhelming apathy and oppression from all sides.
The solution is to stop working for shit companies or only provide what they pay for so they have trouble finding help and pay more. The very thing you are bitching about. The free market right?
I also see this student loan thing being tossed around all the time. If people don’t intend to pay them back, then don’t take out a loan. It’s really that simple.
Its not that simple. You’re using the benefit of hindsight with the knowledge you’ve gained as an adult and are applying it to the mindset of a 18 year old that is making the decision that they don’t understand the consequences of, and are being advised to do by adults they trust.
Stay out of debt.
This is generally good advice, but not always. There is useful debt, especially when you are younger, which is the prime time that young adults take on student loans.
I can’t stand banks. I loathe them. I refuse to owe a bank or anybody else for that matter any money.
That is certainly your right, but it may not be the most beneficial path for someone in your situation. Living purely on cash (as in money belonging to you not borrowed) means missing out on opportunities to those with solid transportation, education (not just college), ownership of your housing, and possibly needed medical procedures. Unless you’re starting with money, the timeline for establishing yourself and meeting your basic needs is far longer without borrowing at all.
I used to be in a bad situation like what you’re describing. I woke up one day and told myself enough is enough. I’m sick of the debt. I paid off all my debts,
I went through the same thing. However, we both went through this long after being 18 years old, which is when many would have taking out student loans. So even we didn’t have the wherewithal to avoid poor financial choices, we were just lucky enough not to have been born at a time when a 6 figure student loan for a bachelors degree isn’t uncommon.
bought a house, paid that off and now I try and save as much as I can.
That is a perfect example of a good use of debt. You took out a mortgage to buy a house, and gave the bank money in interest while you worked to pay it off. Not all debt is bad. Imagine if you’d tried to buy a house just by saving up cash.
I didn’t wait for anybody to rescue me. Nobody is gonna rescue me. The government, a bank, family. Nobody. I’m responsible for my own actions and I take accountability.
That is a good mindset, but recognize what it took in life before you arrived there. I imagine that was a long time after your 18th birthday. Further, you weren’t in as deep as a hole as many young people are today. If you were paying rent, it was a smaller fraction of your income than younger people pay today. If you had a car (even a used one), it would have cost you far less to buy then than today, and far cheaper to maintain and repair then compared to now. Most importantly, you had years of experience and probably had professional employment when you made your realization. You weren’t 2 years graduated from college without any professional employment because the 2008 Financial Crisis essentially stopped all hiring for a couple of years.
The younger generations didn’t have what you had to overcome things. So they can’t take exactly the same actions you took and expect the same positive outcome.
The only way people can change their situation for the better is to think positively and work hard towards your goals. I don’t know of any other way.
That worked for both of us, but we had the benefit of growing up (and entering the workforce) when we did. We got to establish ourselves before the rules changed.
The other difference between us in the 90s and the generations now is that when life kicked us down, there was a small effort to stand up. The consequences of failure (even with no mistakes made) can have decades long consequences to recover from. The reason I point this out is that you and I have had it better than those young today. What worked for us, rarely works for them anymore. Its important to recognize that when we try to apply our past experience to those experiencing it now. The time difference changes the rules and outcomes.
So with all that being said, has the education system failed society? They seem to teach people how to be good consumers. And that’s about it
I’m too far removed from the modern education system to be able to have a trustworthy complete opinion on it. If there are any educators reading, please weigh in, I’m interested in your answer.
However, one of the few things I don’t see taught comprehensively (and this was true of us in the 90s too) is: Critical Thinking
I had a few teachers or professors throughout my primary and secondary education that DID teach this in concert with their subject matter expertise. These men and women had a profound impact on my mindset and education I still benefit from today. I don’t know if certain lines of study have more or less of it, but the practice around exploring “why” something is instead of just “what” is in short supply in most folks I run into today.
Also, I agree, taking a loan for a home is the only debt I agree with only because real estate is a tangible asset and will always appreciate.
For your situation that may be the appropriate answer. For others if they are able bodied and desire to work, but don’t have transportation, it is worth taking on debt to buy an affordable vehicle of some kind that can get them too and from work.
If a different person is have debilitating pain from an infected tooth and can’t work, taking on debt to get the tooth pulled instead of dying of sepsis is also good debt.
I intended to pay mine back. I took out 30k in 2005 and I pay $300 a month since 2009. I owe 40k now. Is that ok with you for the government to screw kids so hard on loans? No wonder we don’t trust anyone for their word. I wish it had happened to you so you could see.
But you are just up there in management demanding respect so you would never know.
Why work if your pay check doesn’t pay all your bills? That’s the main incentive to work and you act like it’s not important at all and we should just suck it up. Fuck you
No I don’t think it’s ok for banks and the government to fuck people over. And just like every other debt, it’s too easy to get and much too hard to pay back. They prey on naive people that are sold the lie that they’re going to be some kind of astronaut or celebrity doctor if they take out a 100k loan for an “education”. Social media portrays people working these dream jobs and flexing their cyber trucks. This ain’t reality. But it’s sold as reality. Unfortunately, people are suckered into thinking that a 100k education = cyber trucks and log cabins at lake Tahoe.
I think you are mixing up cause and effect. Corporations stopped valuing their employees but expect the same kind of loyalty from when they used to actually pay enough. It’s normal for employees to feel demotivated and give less energy to a job that doesn’t respect them and is over eager to threaten and replace them.
You got it backwards though. The root cause is not the change in work ethic. The change in work ethic is the symptom. People have to get nitpicky about breaks and such and show no loyalty entirely because companies stopped being loyal to their employees. This can be demarcated with the death of the pension.
I’m not simping for big corporations. They definitely have issues. But how did they get that way? A change in work culture in my opinion. Also, if somebody saved %15 of their pay from the time they’re 18 until they’re ready to retire around the age of 62-65, they would be a multi-millionaire and able to live off monthly payments until they die. Assuming you invested in some mutual funds or something similar. Nothing too risky.
I’m curious what you think of it and how it might come into play with worker/employer relations.
Look, I have a good job and I am naturally frugal and a saver. I’m not complaining about how this is affecting me, even though it inevitably affects us all. But the data is the data. No amount of “well I think X Y and Z” is going to change the past slope of the numbers.
In my opinion? A combination of greed and politicians selling us out. The same old story and history repeating itself. I’m not an expert in this field.
Personally I think if the government would get out of my way and I wasn’t forced to participate in this bullshit monetary system that’s controlled by a private bank, I’d be much better off. The american people were sold a lie.
And not all of this is due to employees, rather, management issues that have gotten worse over time. But I still believe the root cause is a negative change in people’s work ethic.
Personally I’d say you made the exact opposite clear while throwing a lil blame at the management’s way so it wouldn’t sound as disconnected from reality. Beatings will continue until morale improves I guess.
Entitlement culture/attitude. More people today believe they are owed something without earning it. Hierarchical structures were more rigid, with clear distinctions between management and staff. Respect for authority was expected.
This is the most middle-manager shit I’ve ever read. “Kids these days don’t respect me!”
I would. However, given the climate of the conversation, I am a little concerned that if I did disclose what industries I’ve worked in, it would only cause people to “shit” on what I do for a living. I’d rather not go there. I believe this issue is applicable to every industry.
I’m not strictly speaking of the place I work for. I actually like my job. Not a fan of the management. My argument is that a lot of people’s work ethic has dwindled. Really all it does is punish their coworkers. You think the CEO or upper management cares about people’s feelings or how the job got done? I don’t. We’re all replaceable. I do the best I can with what I’m given. Complaining gets me nowhere
Again, what you’re saying doesn’t apply to the industry as a whole. Or maybe you’re just one of the folks who thinks Americans should adopt the 996 work ethic?
What kind of differences?
Ok. I’ll bite. Even though I believe this conversation will go nowhere.
Differences I have seen in work ethic between the 90s and today:
Constantly complaining about being broke but refusing to work any overtime.
Refusing to do anything outside the scope of their job duties. Even if it’s something small and won’t take any extra time or energy off their current job duty.
Demanding or taking long breaks causing others to pick up their slack. And then acting like the victim.
Overly emotional about deadlines and jobs duties. Making decisions based on their feelings and not the job/project at hand.
People then would usually figure out solutions to problems without any supervision. Ingenuity was rewarded and favored. Today, people seem to prefer to be micro-managed. This could also be a change in employer culture as well.
Entitlement culture/attitude. More people today believe they are owed something without earning it. Hierarchical structures were more rigid, with clear distinctions between management and staff. Respect for authority was expected.
Employees were more likely to stay with one company for years or even decades, building loyalty and expertise within their organization.
I guess I could go on. And not all of this is due to employees, rather, management issues that have gotten worse over time. But I still believe the root cause is a negative change in people’s work ethic. This is obviously not all inclusive. These are just some examples of what I’ve noticed between now and then. I have been working full time since the 90s. Yes, it’s anecdotal. But you asked me. This is my opinion. It’s okay if people don’t agree with me. But I would find it hard to believe most people would disagree with all or some of these points especially if they have been working as long as I have.
Not accepting shit from bosses isn’t bad work ethics. Corporations did it their fake personhood.
wtf… so tired of being told i have no work ethic, when i probably work more than you ever had to at my age, for peanuts. I will never own a home. my company doesn’t give two fucks about me. I can’t even afford glasses, i can’t go to the doctor. but i should be kissing feet and never complaining? your mentality is what killed opportunity in my generation. like, “people prefer to be micromanaged?” how can you possibly think that
If people were payed more most of those problems would evaporate. There used to be a middle class in this country that made enough money to justify dealing with their boss’s bullshit expectations. Now everyone is getting the bare minimum and management wonders why they’re getting minimum effort. If you want people to have a better work ethic it has to be worth it for them. Dangle a fuckin carrot once in a while, you know?
If money was an issue, I would simply find a higher paying job. I’m not owed anything. I’m trying to do the best I can just like everybody else. I’ve never agreed 100% with what management does. I’m just happy to have a decent job that pays decently. I wasn’t handed this automatically. I worked my way up to it. I earned it.
I’m not saying you didn’t work to get where you are, but if you ignore completely the chance and luck you had, then you’re just arguing in bad faith.
Even more so if you can’t see that people entering the workforce now have less chances and need more luck to get where you feel you worked hard to get.
I don’t rely on luck. Too risky. I do what I have to do and use what I’m given to make the best of my situation. Complaining and blaming others got me nowhere. I’m simply pointing out what I’ve witnessed over the last three decades.
The fact that I am using my high tech device to entertain myself by replying to your comment that you made using your high tech device to entertain yourself means that we are both in the upper percentiles of luckiest humans to ever have lived.
I am sitting at my engineering job that I really like as I type this. I have a bachelors degree and two masters degrees. I have worked for this shit, and I have pushed through my chronic disease despite seeing images of the literal brain damage I have from it. I am STILL extremely fortunate to be where I am. Most humans who have ever been born literally had no path to get here regardless of their health or upbringing. And I’d guess that the same is true for a majority of today’s living humans.
And I do not mean those statements with a negative connotation. You should take some of that innate positive outlook you have for the world and develop a feeling of being grateful for your good fortune in life. It’s literally good for you.
To pretend that your situation is solely because of your positive attributes as an individual is pretty arrogant and not conducive to personal growth.
Sure…I see your point. But I’m not gonna take my paycheck and go to the casino on the off chance I could double my money.
That is not what was meant by anyone here mentioning luck. I would think any reasonable person would understand this.
You may not rely on luck, but do you recognize that you are at least the beneficiary of luck? You could be the exact same person you are born at two different times (or even the same time in two different geographies), and have drastically different opportunities available to you.
I didn’t downvote you even though I disagree with you.
All of the examples you gave of differences have a distinct difference between working in the 90s and now. In the 90s we did all of the things you cite aren’t happening today because it paid off with something better later. It could be a raise in pay, a promotion, or even just experience that could be leveraged at a future job earning more. It was also the time of the final Gen-X’ers entering the workforce, and there were far fewer of us than prior generations that age. This meant there was at least a form of scarcity of entry level workers so anyone that wanted a job could get one that would cover their basic bills. Employers would also train entry level people because there weren’t other options for bodies to do the jobs. We put up with being treated like crap in the hierarchy because we saw that if we worked the hierarchy we would rise. We took risks professionally that would be innovative or creative that created a great product for our employer that would frequently work out. If the professional risk didn’t pay off, we’d likely still be employed or at worst could get another job of near the same level without issue.
In short, we did all of those things in the 90s for the promise of a better tomorrow, and back then, there was one. Workers today know there isn’t a better tomorrow, likely only a worse one. So why should they take the same risks we did professionally if they are not only far less likely to benefit, and are in a much more precarious position with far higher debts (student loans) and far few resources (lack of savings or real estate ownership)?
I’ve heard that argument being made before. That people don’t think there is a better tomorrow. I suppose I could blame it partially on the doom scrolling people do daily on their phones. Personally speaking, I believe there are always opportunities and a better tomorrow.
A younger worker today can do zero doom scrolling and still see their 6 figure student loan debt statements every month. They can look at their take-home pay after subtracting their high living expenses then checking the cost of real estate to see that owning a home going to be perpetually out-of-reach. They can look at the last 4-5 years of their income and see that any appreciation going forward isn’t likely to change their situation.
This is another change from the 90s to today. In the 90s it was a given that there are opportunities and a better tomorrow. We were raised with actual first hand experience of optimism in the working world. For today’s younger workers it has declined to a possibility of opportunities and a better tomorrow. Don’t discount Millennials that entered the workforce right as the Financial Crisis of 2007-2008 was starting. As young adults in the 90s as GenX, we had nothing like that. The worse we had was the dotcom bubble burst in 1999 or 2000, and even then it just meant finding another jump of which there were many. Gen Z saw Millennials trying to be successful do what we Gen X-ers did and failing (because the game had changed). Is it any wonder Gen Z isn’t even trying to play the old game when they see the game is now stacked against them?
I also see this student loan thing being tossed around all the time. If people don’t intend to pay them back, then don’t take out a loan. It’s really that simple. Stay out of debt. I can’t stand banks. I loathe them. I refuse to owe a bank or anybody else for that matter any money. The public has been sold a lie. I used to be in a bad situation like what you’re describing. I woke up one day and told myself enough is enough. I’m sick of the debt. I’m sick of blaming everybody else for my shortcomings. I paid off all my debts, bought a house, paid that off and now I try and save as much as I can. I didn’t wait for anybody to rescue me. Nobody is gonna rescue me. The government, a bank, family. Nobody. I’m responsible for my own actions and I take accountability. The only way people can change their situation for the better is to think positively and work hard towards your goals. I don’t know of any other way.
I see you’re somewhat fixated on the “attitude problem” bit, but you’re conveniently leaving out the circumstances. The labor situation right now is starting to swing back to how it was in say, the 19th and 20th centuries.
Oh yeah, they’re trying to bring back all the classics: Smashing unions, company towns paying in company scrip, child labor, inhuman working hours, dangerous factories, you name it.
That you had the opportunity to decide you were sick of things sucking and just go do something about it, is a privilege you didn’t have control over. You did have control over recognizing and seizing those opportunities. But this can be an uncomfortable distinction because it somewhat undermines the “I did it all by myself with sheer grit and chest hair” narrative.
I’m what they’d call a "millennial " and I see lots of your points in my experience. I see younger people who are absolutely mind boggling with being unable to problem-solve, for instance, and I also see oldies who, in 2025, have avoided learning anything new since they graduated highschool in the 70’s or something, and simply get mad or frustrated that things have changed instead of doing something about it. I’ve also seen complete geniuses that were like 12 years old repairing their own electronics.
My point being, there have always been pragmatic people and helpless-by-choice people.
I agree there’s lots of avenues to funding for school that don’t involve a loan, but that’s not cut and dry either. If a decent school isn’t in their neighborhood they can’t crash with mom and dad, for instance. If it’s out of state? Man, how the heck couldn’t you take out a loan?
There’s also the time factor. To work enough to get you through school without taking a loan, if you didn’t get SIGNIFICANT grant money, you wouldn’t have time for school, unless maybe you were okay with your Bachelor’s being a 6-8 year degree.
Ah. Time. People are working earlier now too. They can’t just “defer adulthood” to go to school instead. Heck, some states were bringing back child labor shortly after COVID! I wonder how many of those kids will afford school with money or time.
They’re on a treadmill they can’t step off, because their family probably needs the money they pull in, because so many jobs disappeared, and education is so abysmal people can’t shift their skills when that job disappears.
To add to that crap-sandwich, their hours are worth less, and they’re expected to do more work with less coworkers because labor is expensive and management is cheap.
Nowadays the reward for hard, exceptional work, is more work and a higher expectation, and if you’re REALLY convincing, like $.08+ an hour. I’m not even kidding. Statistically, you are an expendable “human resource”, not a valued asset.
Observe how the common knowledge now is “The best way to get a raise is to switch jobs.” Loyalty is punished.
Overtime? Ha! Most jobs put a lot of effort into making sure you work really hard right up to that line, and will actually penalize you if you try to go over it. Other jobs find ways around it, like slapping you with a laughably low (they’ll call it “competitive”) “exempt” salary.
Maybe, just maybe, in the 90’s, workers were still somewhat respected and valued. Today they’re a cost to minimize in any way possible to please shareholders with upward-jaggy lines.
People have a shitty work ethic because they see through the crap. Working a job in the modern age is what business folk would call “a raw deal.”
If we look at this through a Great American Entrepreneurial lens, going by numbers and common sense…working a job is foolish, and only marginally better than not having one at all.
If anything the younger generations are getting more clever about sourcing income from wherever they can, with endless “side hustles.” Because their bosses sure as hell won’t pay them. (Fun fact: Wage theft is the most prominent form of theft!)
Sadly there’s a cost to that hustling “work ethic” to keep everything together. Skyrocketing lonliness and suicide rates.
It’s easy to jump on “doomscrolling zoomers” but we also need to consider that the Internet is merely a communication platform, and look at WHY we have a world that causes literal children to develop a sardonic collective humor about “burning oceans (again)” and “dying in the climate wars”, and never retiring, or owning a house, and that having a family is not only out of reach, but cruel and irresponsible hubris under a world of rapidly decaying empires locked in constant bloody conflicts at the behest of private interests.
So, I’m glad things worked out for you. I’m being sincere here. I’m glad loyalty paid off, and you could do something with your life. May the rest of your days be long and prosperous and full of love and cheer.
But I also warn that you’d be taking a path of intentional ignorance to refuse to acknowledge that most of those escape ropes you had to improve your situation are either terribly frayed or long-rotted for a vast majority of people now, and it’s simply cruelty to call them lazy for struggling to adapt without the societal tools of their ancestors, or to call them ungrateful and entitled for telling their wanna-be-lord bosses to go screw themselves after being exploited over and over, whilst everyone calls them “lazy.”
Just food for thought. Thanks for hearing me out.
Wow that was a lot. Forgive me for not replying with as much. I don’t have the time.
My only question to all of this is, what is your solution to these problems? If it involves the government, then I have news for you. The government isn’t going to help anybody. My point being if these problems you say exist and are such huge problems, then what is the answer? How does society solve it? I’ve tried to answer these questions myself and it always comes back to asking myself one question. What can I DO TODAY, to make things better for myself and my family?
No problem, I’m aware that I tend to essay-out into a ramble on these tough topics. Thanks for hearing me out!
So, “my solution”: idealistically? Worker organizing. I see a resurgence of unions which is very inspiring, and they’ve been effective at winning decent pay and benefits. The news has been quietly ignoring and underplaying strike waves across the nation (and the world), because it makes their bosses nervous. They’re also ignoring the absolutely blatant retaliation against strikers from corporations. (Remember 19th and 20th centuries all over again? Thankfully they’re not bringing in PMCs and riot cops for strikers…yet.) If anybody is “entitled without earning it”, it’s the corpos who feel entitled to cheap complicit bodies for their profit machines.
Especially not this one. God help us. Reagan’s measures to prevent certain industries from striking, like air traffic controllers, and recently seen with railway workers, is just one of many ways the pro-capital government keeps the workers from getting too “uppity.”
Returning to a New Deal economic policy would help immensely. But 50’s red-scare and trickle-down propaganda is still sunk in deep.
Short answer? Band together and survive. The “screw you, got mine” individualism/exceptionalism myth has destroyed our culture and made us a nation of suspicious strangers. Perfect for selling garbage to and farming labor from.
So we need to involve our neighbors and coworkers in mutual support. You’re right, the government won’t help, your boss won’t help. Who’s left?
Just “keeping my head down and looking out for me and mine” is how we get picked off. This is also why media thinktanks love to stoke identity politics. It gets people infighting instead of massing.
So I’m just doing what I can to do my own thing, and survive, and getting people talking, and loving my neighbor as myself as much as I can, and trying not to feel powerless against overwhelming apathy and oppression from all sides.
The solution is to stop working for shit companies or only provide what they pay for so they have trouble finding help and pay more. The very thing you are bitching about. The free market right?
Millennials were told “go to college at all costs because it will work out“ by people like you. Then yall got mad when we did it.
😆 people like me? I’m arguing against it. I never believed that. Or told anybody that. I did the opposite.
You know what I’m saying don’t play dense please.
Its not that simple. You’re using the benefit of hindsight with the knowledge you’ve gained as an adult and are applying it to the mindset of a 18 year old that is making the decision that they don’t understand the consequences of, and are being advised to do by adults they trust.
This is generally good advice, but not always. There is useful debt, especially when you are younger, which is the prime time that young adults take on student loans.
That is certainly your right, but it may not be the most beneficial path for someone in your situation. Living purely on cash (as in money belonging to you not borrowed) means missing out on opportunities to those with solid transportation, education (not just college), ownership of your housing, and possibly needed medical procedures. Unless you’re starting with money, the timeline for establishing yourself and meeting your basic needs is far longer without borrowing at all.
I went through the same thing. However, we both went through this long after being 18 years old, which is when many would have taking out student loans. So even we didn’t have the wherewithal to avoid poor financial choices, we were just lucky enough not to have been born at a time when a 6 figure student loan for a bachelors degree isn’t uncommon.
That is a perfect example of a good use of debt. You took out a mortgage to buy a house, and gave the bank money in interest while you worked to pay it off. Not all debt is bad. Imagine if you’d tried to buy a house just by saving up cash.
That is a good mindset, but recognize what it took in life before you arrived there. I imagine that was a long time after your 18th birthday. Further, you weren’t in as deep as a hole as many young people are today. If you were paying rent, it was a smaller fraction of your income than younger people pay today. If you had a car (even a used one), it would have cost you far less to buy then than today, and far cheaper to maintain and repair then compared to now. Most importantly, you had years of experience and probably had professional employment when you made your realization. You weren’t 2 years graduated from college without any professional employment because the 2008 Financial Crisis essentially stopped all hiring for a couple of years.
The younger generations didn’t have what you had to overcome things. So they can’t take exactly the same actions you took and expect the same positive outcome.
That worked for both of us, but we had the benefit of growing up (and entering the workforce) when we did. We got to establish ourselves before the rules changed.
The other difference between us in the 90s and the generations now is that when life kicked us down, there was a small effort to stand up. The consequences of failure (even with no mistakes made) can have decades long consequences to recover from. The reason I point this out is that you and I have had it better than those young today. What worked for us, rarely works for them anymore. Its important to recognize that when we try to apply our past experience to those experiencing it now. The time difference changes the rules and outcomes.
So with all that being said, has the education system failed society? They seem to teach people how to be good consumers. And that’s about it
Also, I agree, taking a loan for a home is the only debt I agree with only because real estate is a tangible asset and will always appreciate.
I’m too far removed from the modern education system to be able to have a trustworthy complete opinion on it. If there are any educators reading, please weigh in, I’m interested in your answer.
However, one of the few things I don’t see taught comprehensively (and this was true of us in the 90s too) is: Critical Thinking
I had a few teachers or professors throughout my primary and secondary education that DID teach this in concert with their subject matter expertise. These men and women had a profound impact on my mindset and education I still benefit from today. I don’t know if certain lines of study have more or less of it, but the practice around exploring “why” something is instead of just “what” is in short supply in most folks I run into today.
For your situation that may be the appropriate answer. For others if they are able bodied and desire to work, but don’t have transportation, it is worth taking on debt to buy an affordable vehicle of some kind that can get them too and from work.
If a different person is have debilitating pain from an infected tooth and can’t work, taking on debt to get the tooth pulled instead of dying of sepsis is also good debt.
I intended to pay mine back. I took out 30k in 2005 and I pay $300 a month since 2009. I owe 40k now. Is that ok with you for the government to screw kids so hard on loans? No wonder we don’t trust anyone for their word. I wish it had happened to you so you could see.
But you are just up there in management demanding respect so you would never know.
Why work if your pay check doesn’t pay all your bills? That’s the main incentive to work and you act like it’s not important at all and we should just suck it up. Fuck you
No I don’t think it’s ok for banks and the government to fuck people over. And just like every other debt, it’s too easy to get and much too hard to pay back. They prey on naive people that are sold the lie that they’re going to be some kind of astronaut or celebrity doctor if they take out a 100k loan for an “education”. Social media portrays people working these dream jobs and flexing their cyber trucks. This ain’t reality. But it’s sold as reality. Unfortunately, people are suckered into thinking that a 100k education = cyber trucks and log cabins at lake Tahoe.
Fuck me? You’re mad at the wrong person
I think you are mixing up cause and effect. Corporations stopped valuing their employees but expect the same kind of loyalty from when they used to actually pay enough. It’s normal for employees to feel demotivated and give less energy to a job that doesn’t respect them and is over eager to threaten and replace them.
I think I made that clear at the end of my above post
You got it backwards though. The root cause is not the change in work ethic. The change in work ethic is the symptom. People have to get nitpicky about breaks and such and show no loyalty entirely because companies stopped being loyal to their employees. This can be demarcated with the death of the pension.
I’m not simping for big corporations. They definitely have issues. But how did they get that way? A change in work culture in my opinion. Also, if somebody saved %15 of their pay from the time they’re 18 until they’re ready to retire around the age of 62-65, they would be a multi-millionaire and able to live off monthly payments until they die. Assuming you invested in some mutual funds or something similar. Nothing too risky.
Have you ever seen this data?
https://wtfhappenedin1971.com/
I’m curious what you think of it and how it might come into play with worker/employer relations.
Look, I have a good job and I am naturally frugal and a saver. I’m not complaining about how this is affecting me, even though it inevitably affects us all. But the data is the data. No amount of “well I think X Y and Z” is going to change the past slope of the numbers.
In my opinion? A combination of greed and politicians selling us out. The same old story and history repeating itself. I’m not an expert in this field.
Personally I think if the government would get out of my way and I wasn’t forced to participate in this bullshit monetary system that’s controlled by a private bank, I’d be much better off. The american people were sold a lie.
Personally I’d say you made the exact opposite clear while throwing a lil blame at the management’s way so it wouldn’t sound as disconnected from reality. Beatings will continue until morale improves I guess.
If this is what you’re seeing, the problem isn’t the employees.
If you can say with a straight face that employees prefer to be micromanaged, that’s the biggest, brightest, blinding red flag I can even imagine.
If you’re seeing this, your company has a major issue.
This is the most middle-manager shit I’ve ever read. “Kids these days don’t respect me!”
You sound like a bit of an exhausting cunt mate…
You could open up a new business cleaning boots.
I don’t even know where to begin.
Its not my business but do you mind saying what industry you work or see this in?
I’ve noticed it in every industry I’ve ever worked in over three decades
Perhaps you could give an example? Maybe someone can relate to it.
I would. However, given the climate of the conversation, I am a little concerned that if I did disclose what industries I’ve worked in, it would only cause people to “shit” on what I do for a living. I’d rather not go there. I believe this issue is applicable to every industry.
Sounds like a problem with your company culture. I don’t think your description fits the industry as a whole.
I’m not strictly speaking of the place I work for. I actually like my job. Not a fan of the management. My argument is that a lot of people’s work ethic has dwindled. Really all it does is punish their coworkers. You think the CEO or upper management cares about people’s feelings or how the job got done? I don’t. We’re all replaceable. I do the best I can with what I’m given. Complaining gets me nowhere
Again, what you’re saying doesn’t apply to the industry as a whole. Or maybe you’re just one of the folks who thinks Americans should adopt the 996 work ethic?
Given how passionate people are about this topic, I’d say it applies to much of the working class.