It’s nice to see that Democrats suddenly care about genocide.
You all were perfectly accepting of it under Genocide Joe, and even nominated him to be your presidential candidate. You’re also conveniently just ignoring that the genocide continued until the literal last day of his presidency.
They spoke, some people did not think critically and believed it, and now here we are. Lemmy is minor leagues, but the sAmE happening in the major leagues like X & Facebook etc. seem to have carried the day. Perhaps now people will start to think strategically. Or… probably not even now. Sad.:-(
Nah. We had to listen to “gEnOcIDe jOe!!!1!” for the better part of a goddamn year from these people. I’ve got a LOT more “we fucking told you so” to get out of my system before I’m ready to move on let alone begin to forgive. The threat that is now reality was fully apparent, and these single-issue people still decided to hold the country hostage to “teach the dems a lesson”. Fuck them. They’ve also shown they can’t be counted on, so I’m in no hurry to make amends.
You are nuts. The election was in November and you are still shouting at a little minority of potential allies who you can’t even be sure have voted for Trump. Like someone else said: It’s like you’re hoping for things to get worse just to be able to say “I told you so” over and over again.
I’m not saying they voted for Trump, but they were certainly sowing division against the only candidate likely to defeat him at the polls.
“Not Trump” was NOT a choice on the ballot, and the single, actual candidate with the most votes wins. Any vote not FOR Harris was a tacit vote for Trump. No third party was going to win, and abstaining is effectively saying “BoTh SiDeZ aRE tHe SAmE!”.
They had a chance to help stop this and chose to do anything but. Again, fuck them.
Like someone else said: It’s like you’re hoping for things to get worse just to be able to say “I told you so” over and over again.
That person is an idiot (I say this not even reading their comment).
Were people saying Biden was too old also sowing division or were they just criticising?
Yes and no. The people who did nothing but repeat and amplify that? Sowing division (see GiveSomeFucks, Return2Ozma, etc)
The people who made valid points but weren’t beating that drum continuously? Legit criticism.
Either way, at the time, it was Biden or Trump, and the same two potential outcomes: Status quo or speedrun to fascism. There really shouldn’t have been a dilemma.
It doesn’t matter. We’re in this shit now. And have to somehow act together to get out of it again.
Good luck to them then. I’ll definitely be fighting, but I will absolutely not be working with the single-issue “oops, I accidentally helped bring fascism by completely failing to acknowledge the bigger picture” crowd - they’re on their own. We couldn’t count on them when it mattered, and I will not take that risk again.
I agree with you. To anyone who still pretends Trump and Kamala were equally terrible with regard to Palestine: Kamala vocally supported an end to the war* and a two-state solution**, a prevailing US diplomatic philosophy. Please watch what Trump said tonight— it is so much worse than that. He advocates for the full removal of Palestinian people from their homeland.
*it is a genocide and not a war, I disagree with her.
**a two-state solution is not adequate as long as Israel continues to act as it does currently. Free Palestine. I disagree with her.
Remember when Trump said he would lower the prices of groceries? Do you judge him on that, or on his actions? Why is it different for Kamala and Dems?
You know, “empathy” isn’t just “I feel bad for people sometimes!”. Empathy is the ability to place your self in other people’s shoes. So now let’s practice some empathy. Imagine you are Palestinian, and you live in Gaza. Israel has bombed your neighbourhood with American bombs. Aid has been withheld from you and your family. Other hospitals and aid workers have been bombed by American bombs. Journalists are being shot with American supplied weapons and ammo. Some of your neighbours or friends - who weren’t killed - have been captured and are being raped.
Now tell me - keeping that state of mind and empathy - what fucking difference does it make that Kamala “vocally supported an end to the war”?
Can you tell me right now - concretely and materialistically, no vague bullshit - how things were/would be better for Palestinians under the Dems? I’ve asked this question so many times and have never gotten an answer that wasn’t just vague abstract BS like “but Trump said”.
It seriously astonishes me that the one situation where there is no difference between Reps and Dems (except for the words they use while doing the same thing), is the one situation people decide to shout about how much better Dems would be than Reps.
We are 16 days in the Trump presidency and he has announced that he will clean the Gaza Strip from Palestinians. So within the first 16 days he has proven that the GOP has a radically different Middle East policy than Democrats, and you still continue to lie and state that both sides are the same. I am guessing you will keep this BoTH SiDeS conviction even if Trump nukes Gaza.
Now tell me - keeping that state of mind and empathy - what fucking difference does it make that Kamala “vocally supported an end to the war”?
Because it means we haven’t been completely been written off yet, public pressure could improve things. So you’d want the person who controls your fate to at least pretend to have empathy, not the maniac who used ‘Palestinian’ as a slur.
Can you tell me right now - concretely and materialistically, no vague bullshit - how things were/would be better for Palestinians under the Dems? I’ve asked this question so many times and have never gotten an answer that wasn’t just vague abstract BS like “but Trump said”.
There was still a Palestine. Now there won’t be. It’s really not that complex. There is a clear difference.
People just don’t want to accept that Trump is the true face of the US. It doesn’t matter who is in charge. They are a racist bloodthirsty empire that steals the resources and freedoms of oppressed people. Its been this way for decades
Now tell me - keeping that state of mind and empathy - **what fucking difference does it make that Kamala “vocally supported an end to the war”?** Can you tell me right now - concretely and materialistically, no vague bullshit - how things were/would be better for Palestinians under the Dems? I’ve asked this question so many times and have never gotten an answer that wasn’t just vague abstract BS like “but Trump said”.
This is the easiest lob you could give me. It’s because HISTORICALLY it has been easier to get organized and get Dems to change their minds than it will ever be under Trump. His son-in-law Jared Kushner has been openly talking about beach front property in Gaza over the last year and courting land development deals.
If you think Kamala Harris would have gone on the news with Netenyahu and said she was going to use the AMERICAN MILITARY TO TAKE GAZA, you are actually out of your mind. Once again, I DO NOT AGREE WITH THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY’S POSITION. I DO NOT THINK THEY ARE DOING RIGHT BY THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE. But we were already seeing movement regarding limiting arms and funds to Israel, and Biden’s ceasefire. The public backlash was actually gaining momentum into the House. We were seeing congress people speaking out against Netenyahu and the Biden administration getting both internal and external pressure for a pause in arms.
And then, boom, Trump elected.
There is actually no hope for a free Palestine under Trump and a Republican House and Congress. They don’t care about optics, they don’t care about international relations, they will use all the military and money they have to make sure that Israel becomes the “holy land” they need for their Christofascist rapture.
Ok, so your entire comment is: “maybe the Dems would change their minds”, did I get that right? I’m sorry to say, that not worth shit. And if you want to talk about history, here and here you go. America (Dems) have been supporting Israel that whole time.
AMERICAN MILITARY TO TAKE GAZA, you are actually out of your mind
If you’re Palestinian, what difference does it make if the guns shooting at you, and the boots stepping on your corpse, are carried by the Israeli military or the American military? The use of the American military is only worse for the Americans, for the Palestinians it’s more of the same.
No. I’m done. I’ve just realized that the Palestinian genocide to people like you is nothing but a thought experiment. I refuse to engage with someone who uses the actual plight of the Palestinians as a gotcha against Americans while not even participating in the political systems here.
Focus on your own country, because unless you’re from South Africa, you probably have a non-zero number of politicians who support Israel as well. This is not a fucking spectator sport.
Actually, I just read one of your other comments, and you know what’s extra bullshit? The fact that you’re telling people you’re not even American, but you’re still trying to justify why people shouldn’t have voted for Harris.
Under previous administrations, Palestinians in the United States were able to claim refugee status for their relatives and get them out of Gaza.
Now, that’s gone.
The news cycle were able to report on everything going on in Gaza, and have people paying attention to the actual atrocities happening (never mind what’s happening in Sudan and Congo).
Now, Trump and Elon dominate the news cycle.
So many people were willing to donate to Gofundme’s for the people in Gaza to help them cross the border to Jordan/Egypt, or have enough money to at least buy food/shelter/medical treatment and survive until the ceasefire.
Now, people are losing their jobs or in such economic uncertainty DUE TO THE DIRECT ACTIONS OF THE TRUMP ADMIN there is no extra money for mutual aid.
The fact that your idealogical purity stance FROM ANOTHER COUNTRY has destroyed so much of the mutual aid mechanism surrounding Gaza and you don’t even realize it is the most tragic part. I do digital infrastructure work pro bono for an organization that helps Doctors Without Borders, and guess what? The employees there have been furloughed due to the USAID freeze.
So yeah, Kamala and DonElon…totally the same fucking thing, right?
Actually, I just read one of your other comments, and you know what’s extra bullshit? The fact that you’re telling people you’re not even American, but you’re still trying to justify why people shouldn’t have voted for Harris.
What the american government does has repercussion all over the world.
I agree, which should be easy to understand if you’ve actually been reading my comments instead of having a knee-jerk reaction.
Not American, so thankfully I don’t have to (for now). And I did argue with a lot of Trumpists online before the election, but you can only do so much when the other party insists on being a shit stain.
No, the best choice would have been to empower the one party that actually has, albeit often ignored but nevertheless significant, pro-Palestinian and anti-Zionist members as part of its membership. And then to focus on improving that party and/or breaking up the duopoly along the natural and clear lines of opportunity present in the sole big tent party that’s left in US politics.
At the end of the day, there are no significant pro-Palestinian voices in the Republican party. There are in the Democratic party
And that indisputable fact alone should inform a strategic vote.
That said, people are stupid and I don’t really blame non- and 3rd party voters for Democrats losing and the resulting shit show-- blame and culpability falls squarely on the many people who actually specifically voted for this. But it would be nice if those people would try to learn from and admit their incredibly disastrous error in judgement.
Sitting out was a choice as so was voting for murderers with blood on their hands. If you always make the good choice you will have no regrets because that is what you are supposed to do.
Sitting out was a choice as so was voting for murderers with blood on their hands.
So instead you get to keep your spotless morals while many, many more people die than would have if you made a realistic choice instead of throwing the voter equivalent of a tantrum
If you always make the good choice you will have no regrets because that is what you are supposed to do.
If you have no regrets with the way this turned out, I question the contents or existence of your morals.
I voted Kamala and have no regrets with my choice, only regrets aimed at the people who claim to be my compatriots condemning millions to suffering while being high and mighty about it.
Voting the red and blue parties wouldn’t have save it either. It’s time you accept the reality that the government is rigged. Making the good and best possible decision and not the “lesser evil” or other bullshit propaganda tells you is what you are supposed to do.
It literally is a perfect example of “Blue MAGA” to make these comments in posts about Palestine, as if anyone ever though Trump would be better for Palestine, or as if the Dems hadn’t been the ones in power until last November and Kamala was still “unwavering” in her support of Israel.
These people can’t stop shadowboxing with people who supposedly withheld their votes. It’s weird. How many people who otherwise would have voted for Kamala stayed home because of their ongoing support of the genocide in Gaza? Do we even know? And if it was the decisive issue causing the Democratic defeat, what is the political lesson learned?
I can’t help but feel this understandable anger is completely misdirected. Or, maybe they support what is going on in Gaza and they’re annoyed that a critical part of their voting coalition felt otherwise?
These useful idiots are working very hard in making sure that no political lessons will be learned and that next time the DNC will present the American people with yet another ever-so-slightly-less-Fascism-loving candidate than the Republicans.
Just like Trump and the Republican Party leadership has muppets dangling from their strings who will gleefully wallow on the pain and misery of others to defend their leaders, so does the Democrat Party leadership have their own muppets dangling from their strings who with just as much glee wallow in the pain and misery of other to defend their leaders.
People whose response to the actions of one killer is to say “should’ve voted for our killer instead” have literally no sense of proportion or empathy.
Did biden do stupid shit? Sure. Did he made it worse? Yup. Was his at times clear and present dementia a deciding factor why trump has become president? Absofuckinglutely.
Is Biden the one proclaiming gaza a Trump realty project?
People who are too moronic to understand the tightrope that any good faith administration is walking in the middle east and think it’s “just as bad” to give in to a fascist takeover instead are too far gone, and should start taking whatever meds are required asap.
I’m so fucking tired of seeing this comment, because it’s just so unbelievably dumb. It would make (some level of) sense in posts about Elon taking over the government and immigrants being sent to Guantanamo Bay, but here? Like, just genuinely fucking stupid. And yet people keep fucking making them in all news threads about Palestine.
Can anyone here actually show me examples of people saying that Trump wouldn’t do this? Because all I saw was people saying that Palestine is going to be fucked regardless, and they didn’t want to cast their vote for someone who was going to support genocide. Meanwhile, comments like this one imply those people thought Palestine would be saved by not voting for Dems, which is a straw man.
Did you guys just forget how much happened under the Dems, and think Kamala winning would actually have improved things for Palestine? Is that it? Do you think it’s somehow worse for Palestinians now?
Stop with this comment in Palestine posts already. It’s seriously the dumbest fucking place you can make them. Go make these comments in a post about Trump censoring scientists or something.
EDIT:
So many downvotes across all my comments here (at least 26 in this comment as of right now), but not a single person has managed to actually answer me. No one can show me people who voted third party (or didn’t vote) saying that Trump is better for Palestine, and no one can answer how are things materially and concretely worse for Palestinians under Trump. Someone even tried to lecture me about how Trump is worse for America - as if I hadn’t literally said that already in this fucking comment.
This is why people use the term “Blue MAGA”; it might not be as bad as Trump MAGA, but it’s just as delusional and cult like. The one way in which Dems and Reps are the exact fucking same, is the one that people are choosing to shout about how much better the Dems would have been. If you are one of those people, next time you are thinking to yourself “why are so many people uncritical, unquestioning, believe everything they hear, and have a tribe mentality, etc.”, look to yourself for the answer.
Gonna leave this thread now, so any further replies I will answer when I am back on.
Explain to me how, then. Don’t be abstract or vague. Tell me, right now, concretely and materialistically, and preferably with sources, how are things worse for Palestinians right now?
I’ve had this argument before and I never got an answer. Do you think it makes any difference for a Palestinian who is being shot/tortured/raped/blown up/having their home destroyed if the weapons and ammo that are being used to achieve those goals come from one American party or the other? Or did you just forget everything that was happening in Palestine before Trump was elected? Feel free to look at the links I posted.
Okay first of all, a lot more, maybe all Palestinians will be killed under Trump.
Second of all, the Trump regime will completely dismantle the US. They’ve already started. People like you (presumably) didn’t show up to vote democrat for some vague moral win in Palestine that doesn’t have any real world implications. Even if the situation in Palestine were exactly the same under Harris and Trump. Millions of people all over the world will suffer because of Trump’s decisions. Queer people, immigrants, women, poor people are going to fucking die because of Trump.
Okay first of all, a lot more, maybe all Palestinians will be killed under Trump.
Again, completely vague. But while we’re at it, how is that different from Dems? Have you been living under a rock? They were actively bombing, shooting, raping, and killing medicals workers in Palestine. So what do you base that “difference” on? The fact Trump said he supported it instead of “only” helping it happen?
Second of all: thanks for demonstrating the lack of intellect and thinking in these type of discussions. I literally said in my first comment that Trump was worse for America. I literally said you could be saying this shit in any thread that isn’t about Palestine, and it would make a lot more sense. And yet, here you fucking are, trying to lecture me about how Trump is worse for America, as if I hadn’t already fucking said it and my question was specifically about how it affects Palestine. Why are you even arguing with people if you don’t even bother to read what they say?
We’re not talking about Reps though. We are talking about people who would usually vote for Dems, but because of their stance on Palestine either didn’t vote or voted third party. Can you show me examples of people on Lemmy who voted third party or abstained that said Reps would be better for Palestinians?
After seeing this sentiment expressed for the 50th time on similar threads, I’m more convinced than ever that: 1.) Many Democrats prefer beating up their left flank to actually opposing Republican ideology, 2.) Many Democrats are somehow pleased that the genocide is proceeding in this fashion because they both get to genocide Palestinians and beat up on their left flank. If Kamala had won, they would have only been able to enjoy half of these pastimes.
Nah. We’re all just pissed that these shortsighted idiots decided to try and make a point about biden/harris and trump/vance being the same for Gaza/Palestine (which, clearly, factually, in every possible conceivable way, they are not), and in so doing, ended the longest running democracy in human history, to say nothing of making our lives a fucking hell for the next however many years until this shitshow is over or the country implodes.
It was idiotic, we told them it was idiotic, they argued against it, and they chose to let trump win and now we’re all stuck with the fucking bill of their stupidity. All of us.
So yeah, I’m fucking pissed at them, and the trump supporters. At least with the maga asshats you know you’re getting idiots marching on parade. We were counting on the dems not being a bunch of fuckwits.
But here we are, sitting in a shit timeline, eating a shit sandwich together.
A sandwich we all said we’d have to fucking eat if this felon rapist piece of shit clown got elected again.
It’s just so fucking exhausting. God fucking damn it, and people like you trying to blame those of us that went out and voted and tried to keep democracy going for another round. We’re not the bad guys here, and we absolutely get to fucking bag on all you dipshits that chose to let this happen by not exercising your right, and fucking DUTY, to vote.
The real failure of the Democrats wasn’t even on Gaza. The day Biden won the election, I was saying that it didn’t matter, and that Trump or a similar Republican would be back in power in 2024. Why? Because it was abundantly obvious, even then, well before Gaza, that he wasn’t going to do the things that needed to be done to keep Trump out of power.
The 2020 election was the anomaly. DNC milquetoast centrism is a dead philosophy and has been politically nonviable since 2012 at the latest. Biden only won by a fluke in 2020 because Trump managed to so massively screw up the covid response. If covid hadn’t happened, or if Trump hadn’t actively screwed it up so much, he would have won in 2020.
Biden represents a philosophy that voters have rejected again and again. Yet the Democrats will never fucking learn.
Even if by some miracle Kamala had won, all that would have changed was that Trump or another fascist would have won in 2028, because again, she wasn’t going to do anything substantial.
People ultimately didn’t even stay home just because of Gaza. They stayed home because they were tired of voting for a failed party again and again, election after election, because “democracy was on the line.”
Here’s a hard fucking truth about democracy. For most people, democracy hasn’t been worth jack shit. Remember, the bottom 90% of the country doesn’t actually live in a democracy and hasn’t for decades. US democracy died a long time ago. People just got tired of propping up the facade and decided to finally let the rotten edifice collapse.
Want someone to blame for the current Trump term? Blame Biden for appointing Merrick fucking Garland. And it’s clear that even now, the Democratic leadership hasn’t learned a damn thing. The Democratic Party needs to be burned to ashes. It is irredeemable.
And Garland dragging his feet on prosecuting trump, and Democrats who voted to confirm horrible picks for every position, especially the courts. I didn’t see Obama closing gitmo either.
Why not be mad at Dens for not doing a better job and having better candidates?
That’s like Burger King serving poop burgers and you’re pissed that people stopped eating shit burgers cuz now Burger King is closed and they built a Chick Fil A in it’s place.
How about admitting that the party is culpable and the people who said not to vote for them or people who didn’t vote at all are also culpable, because the world isn’t black and white and there’s plenty of blame to go around?
Well, that precludes being a loyalist, doesn’t it? So clearly not the group to which I was referring. No need to be reductive as I’m not claiming a binary worldview.
It’s kinda fascinating how every single comment section about another Trump news is filled with folks dogging on a minority who voted third-party and not the, what was it, third of the country (?) who didn’t vote at all.
Do you all really think that those who trully didn’t vote because of the Palestine would somehow change the final outcome? Were they that numerous?
This is a genuine question, I’m not trying to be snarky.
Given the highly political atmosphere of Lemmy, I have the impression that most users vote hard. Most in the liberal side were vocal about their desire to vote Kamala to prevent *gestures broadly* from happening. However, users from the tankie instances, amounting to a third of lemmy, regularly decried the democrat option, instead urging protest votes or abstention.
The world isn’t lemmy, lemmy is lemmy. And lemmy has plenty people to clown on for actively choosing this.
It’s not just lemmy, it’s something I’ve seen on other sites as well as traditional media (repeated by news anchors, commentators and even politicians). It’s just weird to me that the focus is on such a small number of voters instead of those who simply didn’t care enough/were prevented from voting/weren’t successfully convinced by the democrats.
It might be different elsewhere but I can only speak to what I see on lemmy, and it seems appropriate here. I don’t check out other sites or watch the news enough to notice their talking points, so I can’t speak on that. I do know that I saw similar calls for protest voting in 2016, and they left a strong negative impression on me.
Vote hard? The ‘liberal’ side was worried about gestures broadly at what’s actually happening in reality right this very moment. Lemmy isn’t an island, it’s a megaphone.
Dude, this is a trans-positive communist Linux forum. We are far from representative of society at large. Lemmy is as much a megaphone as my mouth is a cup. Take a sip, if you dare.
America has a FTTP voting system, so time has distilled its presidential election into to 2 real choices. This was one, and the milquetoast status quo party is the other. By that merit, not voting for one party helps the other party, though not as much as voting for the opposite. In our case, the opponent of the milquetoast party is the crypto Nazi party.
I’m not the other person you replied to, but personally I think there was a clear choice between the two candidates in regard to which one was better for the Palestinians given their track records. Granted, maybe not good enough in these voters opinions, given that they enabled a genocide in the first place and refused to swiftly correct that action.
Besides billionaires and straight, white, conservative, “Christian” men, I honestly don’t know who benefits from a Trump/Musk presidency as compared to a Harris/Walz presidency.
I get that democrats weren’t good enough, they rarely are in my opinion either, but I do consider them better than this. And yep, she and Biden enabled a genocide, no argument there. I even empathize with those that feel adamant that either we have justice all, or justice for none. But I think we are a little frustrated that in the fatalistic protest, Kamala’s opponents ensured the doom of not just Palestinians, but women, LGBT+ folk, and likely many more.
Frankly I’m getting sick and tired of every story about Gaza being filled with smug comments blaming everything on liberal Lemmy members. Biden was a shit candidate who was losing badly before Gaza ever happened. Harris was a golden opportunity to pivot the Biden campaign into something that stood a chance of winning and instead Harris ran on a campaign of “I’m exactly like Biden but a little younger” which is the most gobsmackingly stupid decision of a political campaign in at least a couple decades.
Harris didn’t lose because of Palestine. I mean it didn’t fucking help, but there were plenty of other reasons she lost. So can we please stop with all the annoying smug “are you happy with what you did?” comments? It’s getting really fucking old.
Now for what I actually wanted to say.
Besides billionaires and straight, white, conservative, “Christian” men, I honestly don’t know who benefits from a Trump/Musk presidency as compared to a Harris/Walz presidency.
Only billionaires are benefiting. Straight, white, conservative, Christian or even men, none of those groups in any combination is benefiting. They may not be getting shafted as hard as others are, but only billionaires are going to see anything even remotely positive out of this.
Sorry hearing “We told ya so” is so irritating to you. The collective focus will shift over time.
You’re right, Harris absolutely lost because she wasn’t good enough. But yeah, people are going to remind you that the alternative is worse, so that hopefully we can avoid this if there ever is a next time.
Kamala didn’t lose because of Palestine. She lost because DNC centrism has been a political dead end since at least 2012. 2020 was the anomaly; Trump only lost because of Covid.
Centrists are just using the Palestine issue as a scapegoat for their own failures. Kamala/Biden was doomed long before Palestine.
But yeah, people are going to remind you that the alternative is worse, so that hopefully we can avoid this if there ever is a next time.
The thing is though that I don’t think anyone doesn’t already know that. The people who legitimately didn’t vote for Harris in the general election won’t care because they’ll say “I didn’t vote for Trump either, so it’s not my fault” and no amount of everyone telling them it is or explaining the reality of our terrible first past the post system is going to change that. You’re basically preaching to the choir here and it’s frankly nothing but a distraction from addressing the real and pressing issue of the white nationalist fascists literally seizing power right now. The thousandth “told ya so” post isn’t doing anything more than the last 990 did besides stroking your own ego.
I mean, it’s also part of the discourse in social media, too. The person I replied to actually asked for the opinion related to those who share the same sentiment as I do. In this instance, it is kinda on you that you kept reading the thread.
Though I would agree that the overall focus should be on what we do from here. And to that, I’d like to see some form of organized community action, protest, or something like that start to pick up steam so that I could support or participate in.
The issue is that it’s practically the only thing being commented in any post related to Palestine and it’s drowning out all the useful discussion that needs to be taking place. Pick any post about Palestine and look at the comments and the overwhelming majority of them are some variation on “boy, I bet all those people who refused to vote for Harris are so happy now”, which is about as useful a comment as all the idiots that used to rush to post “First” on articles back in the day.
These “told you so” comments are so pervasive it’s starting to feel vaguely like astroturfing. A bunch of comments encouraging non-Republican voters to fight amongst themselves and drowning out any possible productive discussion or organization sure sounds like it would be a brilliant move by the fascist supporters. I’m not suggesting everyone making those comments is astroturfing or a troll, but the absolute way that’s blanketing all discussion around Palestine sure does make me wonder if some of them are.
There was a poll of non-voters who voted four years ago. The number one reason they gave for not voting was the genocide in Gaza at 29%. I was surprised by this, but yeah you can potentially say she lost because of Palestine.
I agree she was a shit candidate who, if anything, aimed to the right of Biden. The Democrats are terrible. I still voted against Donald Trump. I’m not here to gloat at all, but look at the situation the world is in now.
You’re accusing me of something I never did. I’m asking because pretty much all the blame I’ve seen is put on those protest voters and the topic of non-voters rarely, if ever, comes up in these comments.
To me saying “people like you” implies similarity between “them” and the person you’re saying it to but whatever.
To reiterate, I don’t think these people are blameless (every bit of resistance counts after all) but I feel like for many normal people, politicians and media commentators, they (pro-Palestinian protesters, LGBT folks etc) became a scapegoat that completely stole the focus from all the rest of the potential voters who didn’t feel strongly enough to oppose an openly fascist candidate. It’s just weird to see.
I don’t think they are being a scapegoat at all. I think they are being told they share in the blame. And they refuse to admit it, some to the point of saying ludicrous things like “ethnic cleansing isn’t as bad as genocide and Harris wanted genocide.”
Perhaps I’m just unlucky enough to stumble mostly on comments focusing on them. I was however lucky enough I didn’t have to read explanations like the one you’ve quoted here yet.
There’s a lot of frustration at the segment of the population who 1) vocally said that Harris would be just as bad as trump in regards to Gaza 2) loudly argued that failure to listen to them in regards to Gaza would cost the Democrats the election, and 3) said that anyone who was willing to vote for Harris despite not perfectly walking the line in regards to Gaza was a supporter of genocide. “The lesser of two evils is still a vote for genocide”, and “it’s not like it can be more genocide” are both things that have been said to me.
So, according to the people in question: yes, they are that numerous. I’m incredibly sad that I seem to have been right, but also fuck you to all the absolute assholes who accused me of supporting genocide because I’d rather the president get a middling cease fire and shamefully keep sending munitions to Israel than have us actively send troops to ethnically cleanse Gaza. Congrats! You got what you wanted! No more war in Gaza, because we’re going to finish it now.
Even if they’re in they’re not large enough to matter, electorally, they were consistently aggressively smug and superior to anyone who said that maybe trump wasn’t going to be the savior of the Palestinians, as evidence by his explicit words.
It’s cathartic to be mad at people who were condescending towards you when they were wrong, even if you’d rather not be right, purely because they called you a bad person for wanting the same thing but thinking their way to get it wouldn’t work.
Well, for point 2, they were kind of right. It’s mostly a self fulfilling prophecy, but when a sizable chunk of your voting block says “take this position if you want my vote” and then you take the opposite position it really shouldn’t come as a surprise if you subsequently lose the election. That 100% was on Harris.
Whether Harris would have been better than Trump (for Gaza) is perhaps a more interesting question. Ultimately Israel is going to be using their own troops for this not US troops because US troops aren’t going to go along with gunning down unarmed civilians in mass the way the Israeli troops will. Whether it’s Trump or Harris that wasn’t going to change. The biggest difference is just one of political posturing. Harris would have made disapproving statements and basically said “we’re very disappointed in Israel” while still sending the exact same weapons and funds Trump is sending. Maybe Israel would have played things more low key, maybe not, we’ll never know now. So point 1 is kind of a wash.
Point 3 is really a more abstract moral question I suppose. At what point does something cross over into “supporting genocide”. Does sending money to the Israeli government count? What about doing business with companies that do so? What about having the power to do something about it and instead choosing to do nothing? I think we can all agree that Trump absolutely supports genocide. The argument for if Harris did is far less concrete, and for people who voted for Harris (or I guess Trump for that matter) more nebulous still.
The real problem ultimately though is that none of this existed in a vacuum. If this was literally a referendum on how the US should respond to Israel that would be one thing, but that was such a tiny slice of a much bigger discussion. The biggest and most concerning of which was Trump essentially admitting that he was planning on staging a coup of the US government which meant no matter how the Gaza situation was going to play our Trump absolutely could not be let anywhere near the office of the president.
The election is over though, Harris lost because she ran a shit campaign on proven losing policy. People need to get over that and focus on actually dealing with the shit sandwich we’ve collectively been handed instead of continuing to point fingers and argue about whose fault it was.
That’s another thing I didn’t see brought up nearly enough. Granted, I’m not extremely tuned into American media so maybe it is a hot topic there but yeah, thanks for mentioning it.
Yes, because everyone who could have voted and didn’t bears responsibility for looking the other way while Trump gained the presidency.
And everyone who was vocal at any point about not voting for Harris for any reason is culpable for assisting Trump in gaining the presidency, and for influencing others to do the same.
Yeah, alienating people for not supporting genocide is such an excellent move. Did you happen to work as a strategist with Harris campaign because this is right up their alley.
When you refuse to see that picking evil will never lead to anything other than additional harm and suffering, you’re saying you’re comfortable with that.
How can you take issue with the person who chose another path and not the one you literally described as “evil?”
In a real life trolley problem, you are supposed to blame the ones driving the train and tying up people to tracks, not the guy pulling the lever.
Yes not voting was stupid, but it’s dumber to actually think they hold the blame. The dems won’t even acknowledge being pro genocide was a bad move and it’s because they feel confident their base has been manipulated to blame a scape goat.
What kind of change are we to expect if we can’t even be vocal about something so ridiculous as supporting genocide even after most of us held the line and voted for it anyways. Keep them accountable and stop giving them an easy out.
You can be vocal about it and still vote for the lesser evil in order to reduce harm and save lives.
This is what almost every legitimate progressive voice I knew did.
It is what I did.
It is what every leftist I know did.
When will libs understand leftists are serious in their coalition building and stop existentially questioning the trustworthiness of our intentions?
Disagree with me, lets talk policy, let us hash out together the 1000 ways things were able to get this bad… but please fucking STOP categorically calling into question our intentions or ability to make the necessary play none of us are excited about. This is baby stuff, leftist discourse discusses this stuff constantly, terminally online leftists by and large get it trust me.
we voted for Harris
we voted for Biden
we voted for Clinton
The people who didn’t turn out to vote weren’t highly informed leftists and more importantly weren’t the kind of people who give a shit about hearing what terminally upset leftists had to say. If you think Sam Seder, Emma Vigeland, Krystal Ball and Kyle Kulinsky, The Rational National, Benjamin Dixon etc… had an impact on unengaged low information voters you are making an absurd leap of thinking… and they advocated for voting for Harris anyways, go back, check the receipts.
Most importantly, the ones who didn’t turn out to vote were in states that don’t matter anyway. Harris actually got more votes than Biden in most key swing states.
This is a thread about what Trump is currently doing and the most upvoted comment is blaming voters. I don’t know what alienating people after the election serves. It’s literally going to make sure they repeat the same behavior, doubly so if the dems feel confident enough to run on apathy a second time.
My point is that currently, most here seem to be vocal about the wrong thing. They voted stupidly but we’re goaded into it by a party that clearly does not represent its constituantes anymore. We should be asking the party to change but we are doing the opposite.
Exactly. The truth is that the current DNC is utterly incapable of actually winning a presidential election, and they have been incapable of it for more than a decade. 2020 was an anomaly; they won only due to covid. Fixating on Gaza will only ensure that the fundamental mistakes aren’t corrected and that Republicans win again in 2028.
It’s a fucking war. Sometimes the only option you get is to put off losing. We didn’t do that, in no small part because of idiot idealists who apparently refuse to understand a concept so basic even chimps get it. Now, thanks to that and SO much more, even being hopeful is approaching the realm of deluded fantasy.
I have no problem alienating people who think their own precious idea of morality is somehow so sacrosanct it can’t be compromised even to actually save the lives they pretend to care about.
Kamala/Biden were already losing before the Palestine conflict started. Palestine did not cause Kamala to lose the election. She could have used Palestine as a signal that she intended to truly strike out in a new direction, but she chose not to do that.
Unfortunately, that kind of radical break from the past was the only hope any Democrat had in 2024. People have this weird view that 2024 is an anomaly. It’s not. 2020 was the anomaly. Trump only lost in 2020 because of covid. If not for covid, Trump would have easily won in 2020.
You might as well be blaming Gaza for the Libertarian party not winning. The existing Democratic party is as nonviable at the presidential level as the Libertarian party is. The current Democratic leadership is fundamentally incapable of winning a national presidential election. They literally are not capable of it. They got lucky in 2020 due to a disaster of historic proportions, but in normal times, they are not capable of wielding a candidate that will win a presidential election.
Only radical change and reform in the DNC can change this. And this is ultimately why scapegoating the handful of people who actually stayed home due to Gaza is counterproductive. If you think Kamala lost in 2024 due to Gaza, you’re going to be sorely, sorely disappointed in 2028 when another DNC centrist fails to win, even when the Gaza issue is no longer on the table.
“It’s a fucking war that’s why we need to give them bombs, arms, jets, cash, and our full support. It’s our only option”
Look, I get it, and I’d be grieving too if I openly supported such atrocities, and it all turned out to be for nothing, but you’re eventually going to find yourself standing alone with the other RadLibs as nobody finds diet-Republican ideals appealing.
I feel like there’s very little chance you intentionally misinterpreted my comment, so in the interest of keeping civil discourse alive: what’s happening in Palestine isn’t a war, it’s a massacre, and I was referring to the nascent civil war and fascist takeover of the US when I said ‘war’ (and to the things like rampant persecution of LGB (and especially T) people, the open violence against the poor and minorities, etc.).
I did misinterpret you, and I agree with what you’re saying in this comment, but I don’t think people like Harris, Biden, or Clinton are on our side in this war, nor are the party leaders who pushed them on us.
I don’t disagree they’re not on our side, I just think they’d have been much less likely to plunge the country into a fascist hellscape and persecute the people I care about.
I won’t deny that it was a stupid move by the dems, but at the same time choosing to abstain from one of the most important elections in US history because you don’t want to choose between the lesser of two evils is just naive. Life is literally full of choosing between the lesser of two evils, inside and outside of politics. And I understand that the situation in Gaza is fucked up, but I also know that by abstaining it only made the situation worse. I know its not 100% their fault as there were many factors that led to Trump winning, but I personally don’t think betting with other people’s lives is altruistic. I think it’s selfish.
You did it “undecideds” and “both sides” people: You saved Palestine! /s
It’s nice to see that Democrats suddenly care about genocide.
You all were perfectly accepting of it under Genocide Joe, and even nominated him to be your presidential candidate. You’re also conveniently just ignoring that the genocide continued until the literal last day of his presidency.
Bold to presume that they were telling the truth when they said that they thought that BoTh SiDeS sAmE.
For me personally, I believe that they just might have been lying, and did not - in fact - believe their own BS at all.
Like this one from you-can-guess-who on Lemmy.ml:
They spoke, some people did not think critically and believed it, and now here we are. Lemmy is minor leagues, but the sAmE happening in the major leagues like X & Facebook etc. seem to have carried the day. Perhaps now people will start to think strategically. Or… probably not even now. Sad.:-(
You’re still running around shouting at people?
Stop it and let’s focus on what we are going to do now.
Nah. We had to listen to “gEnOcIDe jOe!!!1!” for the better part of a goddamn year from these people. I’ve got a LOT more “we fucking told you so” to get out of my system before I’m ready to move on let alone begin to forgive. The threat that is now reality was fully apparent, and these single-issue people still decided to hold the country hostage to “teach the dems a lesson”. Fuck them. They’ve also shown they can’t be counted on, so I’m in no hurry to make amends.
You are nuts. The election was in November and you are still shouting at a little minority of potential allies who you can’t even be sure have voted for Trump. Like someone else said: It’s like you’re hoping for things to get worse just to be able to say “I told you so” over and over again.
I’m not saying they voted for Trump, but they were certainly sowing division against the only candidate likely to defeat him at the polls.
“Not Trump” was NOT a choice on the ballot, and the single, actual candidate with the most votes wins. Any vote not FOR Harris was a tacit vote for Trump. No third party was going to win, and abstaining is effectively saying “BoTh SiDeZ aRE tHe SAmE!”.
They had a chance to help stop this and chose to do anything but. Again, fuck them.
That person is an idiot (I say this not even reading their comment).
Were people saying Biden was too old also sowing division or were they just criticising?
It doesn’t matter. We’re in this shit now. And have to somehow act together to get out of it again.
Yes and no. The people who did nothing but repeat and amplify that? Sowing division (see GiveSomeFucks, Return2Ozma, etc)
The people who made valid points but weren’t beating that drum continuously? Legit criticism.
Either way, at the time, it was Biden or Trump, and the same two potential outcomes: Status quo or speedrun to fascism. There really shouldn’t have been a dilemma.
Good luck to them then. I’ll definitely be fighting, but I will absolutely not be working with the single-issue “oops, I accidentally helped bring fascism by completely failing to acknowledge the bigger picture” crowd - they’re on their own. We couldn’t count on them when it mattered, and I will not take that risk again.
I agree with you. To anyone who still pretends Trump and Kamala were equally terrible with regard to Palestine: Kamala vocally supported an end to the war* and a two-state solution**, a prevailing US diplomatic philosophy. Please watch what Trump said tonight— it is so much worse than that. He advocates for the full removal of Palestinian people from their homeland.
*it is a genocide and not a war, I disagree with her.
**a two-state solution is not adequate as long as Israel continues to act as it does currently. Free Palestine. I disagree with her.
She also said she was unwavering in her support for Israel and would keep arming them.
Remember when Trump said he would lower the prices of groceries? Do you judge him on that, or on his actions? Why is it different for Kamala and Dems?
You know, “empathy” isn’t just “I feel bad for people sometimes!”. Empathy is the ability to place your self in other people’s shoes. So now let’s practice some empathy. Imagine you are Palestinian, and you live in Gaza. Israel has bombed your neighbourhood with American bombs. Aid has been withheld from you and your family. Other hospitals and aid workers have been bombed by American bombs. Journalists are being shot with American supplied weapons and ammo. Some of your neighbours or friends - who weren’t killed - have been captured and are being raped.
Now tell me - keeping that state of mind and empathy - what fucking difference does it make that Kamala “vocally supported an end to the war”?
Can you tell me right now - concretely and materialistically, no vague bullshit - how things were/would be better for Palestinians under the Dems? I’ve asked this question so many times and have never gotten an answer that wasn’t just vague abstract BS like “but Trump said”.
It seriously astonishes me that the one situation where there is no difference between Reps and Dems (except for the words they use while doing the same thing), is the one situation people decide to shout about how much better Dems would be than Reps.
We are 16 days in the Trump presidency and he has announced that he will clean the Gaza Strip from Palestinians. So within the first 16 days he has proven that the GOP has a radically different Middle East policy than Democrats, and you still continue to lie and state that both sides are the same. I am guessing you will keep this BoTH SiDeS conviction even if Trump nukes Gaza.
Because it means we haven’t been completely been written off yet, public pressure could improve things. So you’d want the person who controls your fate to at least pretend to have empathy, not the maniac who used ‘Palestinian’ as a slur.
There was still a Palestine. Now there won’t be. It’s really not that complex. There is a clear difference.
Find Palestine on a map made after 1960 pls.
People just don’t want to accept that Trump is the true face of the US. It doesn’t matter who is in charge. They are a racist bloodthirsty empire that steals the resources and freedoms of oppressed people. Its been this way for decades
This is the easiest lob you could give me. It’s because HISTORICALLY it has been easier to get organized and get Dems to change their minds than it will ever be under Trump. His son-in-law Jared Kushner has been openly talking about beach front property in Gaza over the last year and courting land development deals.
If you think Kamala Harris would have gone on the news with Netenyahu and said she was going to use the AMERICAN MILITARY TO TAKE GAZA, you are actually out of your mind. Once again, I DO NOT AGREE WITH THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY’S POSITION. I DO NOT THINK THEY ARE DOING RIGHT BY THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE. But we were already seeing movement regarding limiting arms and funds to Israel, and Biden’s ceasefire. The public backlash was actually gaining momentum into the House. We were seeing congress people speaking out against Netenyahu and the Biden administration getting both internal and external pressure for a pause in arms.
And then, boom, Trump elected.
There is actually no hope for a free Palestine under Trump and a Republican House and Congress. They don’t care about optics, they don’t care about international relations, they will use all the military and money they have to make sure that Israel becomes the “holy land” they need for their Christofascist rapture.
That’s what they did. They went on the news shaking hands with Netanyahu and israel leveled gaza with the full support of usa
Ok, so your entire comment is: “maybe the Dems would change their minds”, did I get that right? I’m sorry to say, that not worth shit. And if you want to talk about history, here and here you go. America (Dems) have been supporting Israel that whole time.
If you’re Palestinian, what difference does it make if the guns shooting at you, and the boots stepping on your corpse, are carried by the Israeli military or the American military? The use of the American military is only worse for the Americans, for the Palestinians it’s more of the same.
No. I’m done. I’ve just realized that the Palestinian genocide to people like you is nothing but a thought experiment. I refuse to engage with someone who uses the actual plight of the Palestinians as a gotcha against Americans while not even participating in the political systems here.
Focus on your own country, because unless you’re from South Africa, you probably have a non-zero number of politicians who support Israel as well. This is not a fucking spectator sport.
Actually, I just read one of your other comments, and you know what’s extra bullshit? The fact that you’re telling people you’re not even American, but you’re still trying to justify why people shouldn’t have voted for Harris.
Under previous administrations, Palestinians in the United States were able to claim refugee status for their relatives and get them out of Gaza.
Now, that’s gone.
The news cycle were able to report on everything going on in Gaza, and have people paying attention to the actual atrocities happening (never mind what’s happening in Sudan and Congo).
Now, Trump and Elon dominate the news cycle.
So many people were willing to donate to Gofundme’s for the people in Gaza to help them cross the border to Jordan/Egypt, or have enough money to at least buy food/shelter/medical treatment and survive until the ceasefire.
Now, people are losing their jobs or in such economic uncertainty DUE TO THE DIRECT ACTIONS OF THE TRUMP ADMIN there is no extra money for mutual aid.
The fact that your idealogical purity stance FROM ANOTHER COUNTRY has destroyed so much of the mutual aid mechanism surrounding Gaza and you don’t even realize it is the most tragic part. I do digital infrastructure work pro bono for an organization that helps Doctors Without Borders, and guess what? The employees there have been furloughed due to the USAID freeze.
So yeah, Kamala and DonElon…totally the same fucking thing, right?
What the american government does has repercussion all over the world.
Now respond to the rest of my comment. You didn’t even read it, did you.
Ok, so there was no difference between them on this genocide.
Guess Trump should have been stopped for other reasons.
Too late now. Enjoy the fascism.
I agree, which should be easy to understand if you’ve actually been reading my comments instead of having a knee-jerk reaction.
Not American, so thankfully I don’t have to (for now). And I did argue with a lot of Trumpists online before the election, but you can only do so much when the other party insists on being a shit stain.
I have been reading your comments and it was not easy to understand.
“The gang saves Palestine”
Cue sunny intro
This is so fitting it’s uncanny
‘but we had no choice’ - dumbfuks
The best choice to save palestinian people is to do everything in power against the red and blue party.
No, the best choice would have been to empower the one party that actually has, albeit often ignored but nevertheless significant, pro-Palestinian and anti-Zionist members as part of its membership. And then to focus on improving that party and/or breaking up the duopoly along the natural and clear lines of opportunity present in the sole big tent party that’s left in US politics.
At the end of the day, there are no significant pro-Palestinian voices in the Republican party. There are in the Democratic party And that indisputable fact alone should inform a strategic vote.
That said, people are stupid and I don’t really blame non- and 3rd party voters for Democrats losing and the resulting shit show-- blame and culpability falls squarely on the many people who actually specifically voted for this. But it would be nice if those people would try to learn from and admit their incredibly disastrous error in judgement.
When presented with a tough choice, you make it and deal with the circumstances. Sitting it out was a choice. They get to deal with the consequences.
Sitting out was a choice as so was voting for murderers with blood on their hands. If you always make the good choice you will have no regrets because that is what you are supposed to do.
So instead you get to keep your spotless morals while many, many more people die than would have if you made a realistic choice instead of throwing the voter equivalent of a tantrum
If you have no regrets with the way this turned out, I question the contents or existence of your morals.
I voted Kamala and have no regrets with my choice, only regrets aimed at the people who claim to be my compatriots condemning millions to suffering while being high and mighty about it.
Enjoy watching the Palestinian people get eradicated because you couldn’t vote against it.
Enjoy
Enjoy
Voting the red and blue parties wouldn’t have save it either. It’s time you accept the reality that the government is rigged. Making the good and best possible decision and not the “lesser evil” or other bullshit propaganda tells you is what you are supposed to do.
BlUeMaGa
It literally is a perfect example of “Blue MAGA” to make these comments in posts about Palestine, as if anyone ever though Trump would be better for Palestine, or as if the Dems hadn’t been the ones in power until last November and Kamala was still “unwavering” in her support of Israel.
Here is a bit of a refresher on all that was happening in Palestine while the Dems were in power and Kamala was “unwavering” in her support.
If you don’t wanna sound like Blue MAGA, go make these comments on literally any other thread about what the US is doing, not ones about Palestine.
These people can’t stop shadowboxing with people who supposedly withheld their votes. It’s weird. How many people who otherwise would have voted for Kamala stayed home because of their ongoing support of the genocide in Gaza? Do we even know? And if it was the decisive issue causing the Democratic defeat, what is the political lesson learned?
I can’t help but feel this understandable anger is completely misdirected. Or, maybe they support what is going on in Gaza and they’re annoyed that a critical part of their voting coalition felt otherwise?
These useful idiots are working very hard in making sure that no political lessons will be learned and that next time the DNC will present the American people with yet another ever-so-slightly-less-Fascism-loving candidate than the Republicans.
Just like Trump and the Republican Party leadership has muppets dangling from their strings who will gleefully wallow on the pain and misery of others to defend their leaders, so does the Democrat Party leadership have their own muppets dangling from their strings who with just as much glee wallow in the pain and misery of other to defend their leaders.
People whose response to the actions of one killer is to say “should’ve voted for our killer instead” have literally no sense of proportion or empathy.
If Biden didn’t allow Israel to flatten Gaza we wouldn’t be here.
If Biden didn’t veto ceasefire at the UN multiple times we wouldn’t be here.
If Biden didn’t send the bombs to Israel we wouldn’t be here.
If Biden didn’t lie about the rape and beheadings we wouldn’t be here.
If Biden didn’t provide Israel with the political cover, including proposing sanctions on the ICC, we wouldn’t be here.
If Biden did what Reagan did in 1982 and demanded that Israel stop, we wouldn’t be here.
If Biden wasn’t an enthusiastic supporter of Israel like he was in 1982 we wouldn’t be here.
I could go on…
Did biden do stupid shit? Sure. Did he made it worse? Yup. Was his at times clear and present dementia a deciding factor why trump has become president? Absofuckinglutely.
Is Biden the one proclaiming gaza a Trump realty project?
Most fucking certainly not.
People who are too moronic to understand the tightrope that any good faith administration is walking in the middle east and think it’s “just as bad” to give in to a fascist takeover instead are too far gone, and should start taking whatever meds are required asap.
Also, why are you fetching alleged Biden comments made decades before his presidency and current events you sad dog? Good luck seeing Trump being less enthusiastic
P.S. The intercept is a shit source
I’m so fucking tired of seeing this comment, because it’s just so unbelievably dumb. It would make (some level of) sense in posts about Elon taking over the government and immigrants being sent to Guantanamo Bay, but here? Like, just genuinely fucking stupid. And yet people keep fucking making them in all news threads about Palestine.
Can anyone here actually show me examples of people saying that Trump wouldn’t do this? Because all I saw was people saying that Palestine is going to be fucked regardless, and they didn’t want to cast their vote for someone who was going to support genocide. Meanwhile, comments like this one imply those people thought Palestine would be saved by not voting for Dems, which is a straw man.
Did you guys just forget how much happened under the Dems, and think Kamala winning would actually have improved things for Palestine? Is that it? Do you think it’s somehow worse for Palestinians now?
Here is an article from July 2023: Israel Is Officially Annexing the West Bank
December 2023: Nearly 100,000 Gaza buildings may be damaged, satellite images show
9th of August 2024: ‘Everything is legitimate’: Israeli leaders defend soldiers accused of rape
30th of August 2024: Harris says she won’t change US policy on arming Israel, stresses need for hostage deal
Stop with this comment in Palestine posts already. It’s seriously the dumbest fucking place you can make them. Go make these comments in a post about Trump censoring scientists or something.
EDIT:
So many downvotes across all my comments here (at least 26 in this comment as of right now), but not a single person has managed to actually answer me. No one can show me people who voted third party (or didn’t vote) saying that Trump is better for Palestine, and no one can answer how are things materially and concretely worse for Palestinians under Trump. Someone even tried to lecture me about how Trump is worse for America - as if I hadn’t literally said that already in this fucking comment.
This is why people use the term “Blue MAGA”; it might not be as bad as Trump MAGA, but it’s just as delusional and cult like. The one way in which Dems and Reps are the exact fucking same, is the one that people are choosing to shout about how much better the Dems would have been. If you are one of those people, next time you are thinking to yourself “why are so many people uncritical, unquestioning, believe everything they hear, and have a tribe mentality, etc.”, look to yourself for the answer.
Gonna leave this thread now, so any further replies I will answer when I am back on.
lol yeah it’s worse now, what the hell are you saying
🙄
Explain to me how, then. Don’t be abstract or vague. Tell me, right now, concretely and materialistically, and preferably with sources, how are things worse for Palestinians right now?
I’ve had this argument before and I never got an answer. Do you think it makes any difference for a Palestinian who is being shot/tortured/raped/blown up/having their home destroyed if the weapons and ammo that are being used to achieve those goals come from one American party or the other? Or did you just forget everything that was happening in Palestine before Trump was elected? Feel free to look at the links I posted.
You’re one of those “once genocide starts, it can’t get worse” people, aren’t you?
I’m one of the “genocide is genocide” people. And you still haven’t said how it’s actually worse, though. More vague BS avoiding the question.
Because far more people will die.
My god.
Look up the Trail of Tears.
Okay first of all, a lot more, maybe all Palestinians will be killed under Trump.
Second of all, the Trump regime will completely dismantle the US. They’ve already started. People like you (presumably) didn’t show up to vote democrat for some vague moral win in Palestine that doesn’t have any real world implications. Even if the situation in Palestine were exactly the same under Harris and Trump. Millions of people all over the world will suffer because of Trump’s decisions. Queer people, immigrants, women, poor people are going to fucking die because of Trump.
Again, completely vague. But while we’re at it, how is that different from Dems? Have you been living under a rock? They were actively bombing, shooting, raping, and killing medicals workers in Palestine. So what do you base that “difference” on? The fact Trump said he supported it instead of “only” helping it happen?
Second of all: thanks for demonstrating the lack of intellect and thinking in these type of discussions. I literally said in my first comment that Trump was worse for America. I literally said you could be saying this shit in any thread that isn’t about Palestine, and it would make a lot more sense. And yet, here you fucking are, trying to lecture me about how Trump is worse for America, as if I hadn’t already fucking said it and my question was specifically about how it affects Palestine. Why are you even arguing with people if you don’t even bother to read what they say?
Reps calling him genocide Joe was indeed implying this
What about calling him Butcher Biden? Or is the Irish MEP also a Russian troll?
Claire Daly is absolutely pro-Russian, yeah.
No longer an MEP thankfully, her and that other clown Mick Wallace were both voted out…
We’re not talking about Reps though. We are talking about people who would usually vote for Dems, but because of their stance on Palestine either didn’t vote or voted third party. Can you show me examples of people on Lemmy who voted third party or abstained that said Reps would be better for Palestinians?
Yes. Verdant Banana.
Asking for such evidence is a classic manipulation technique of conservatives and will be discarded as untrue anyway the moment it’s delivered.
Off course, how convenient for you.
I’m a Socialist btw, but go on with your excuses.
https://lemmy.world/comment/11884455
https://lemmy.world/comment/13088061
https://lemmy.world/post/2249362
https://lemmy.world/comment/8375466
After seeing this sentiment expressed for the 50th time on similar threads, I’m more convinced than ever that: 1.) Many Democrats prefer beating up their left flank to actually opposing Republican ideology, 2.) Many Democrats are somehow pleased that the genocide is proceeding in this fashion because they both get to genocide Palestinians and beat up on their left flank. If Kamala had won, they would have only been able to enjoy half of these pastimes.
Nah. We’re all just pissed that these shortsighted idiots decided to try and make a point about biden/harris and trump/vance being the same for Gaza/Palestine (which, clearly, factually, in every possible conceivable way, they are not), and in so doing, ended the longest running democracy in human history, to say nothing of making our lives a fucking hell for the next however many years until this shitshow is over or the country implodes.
It was idiotic, we told them it was idiotic, they argued against it, and they chose to let trump win and now we’re all stuck with the fucking bill of their stupidity. All of us.
So yeah, I’m fucking pissed at them, and the trump supporters. At least with the maga asshats you know you’re getting idiots marching on parade. We were counting on the dems not being a bunch of fuckwits.
But here we are, sitting in a shit timeline, eating a shit sandwich together.
A sandwich we all said we’d have to fucking eat if this felon rapist piece of shit clown got elected again.
It’s just so fucking exhausting. God fucking damn it, and people like you trying to blame those of us that went out and voted and tried to keep democracy going for another round. We’re not the bad guys here, and we absolutely get to fucking bag on all you dipshits that chose to let this happen by not exercising your right, and fucking DUTY, to vote.
The real failure of the Democrats wasn’t even on Gaza. The day Biden won the election, I was saying that it didn’t matter, and that Trump or a similar Republican would be back in power in 2024. Why? Because it was abundantly obvious, even then, well before Gaza, that he wasn’t going to do the things that needed to be done to keep Trump out of power.
The 2020 election was the anomaly. DNC milquetoast centrism is a dead philosophy and has been politically nonviable since 2012 at the latest. Biden only won by a fluke in 2020 because Trump managed to so massively screw up the covid response. If covid hadn’t happened, or if Trump hadn’t actively screwed it up so much, he would have won in 2020.
Biden represents a philosophy that voters have rejected again and again. Yet the Democrats will never fucking learn.
Even if by some miracle Kamala had won, all that would have changed was that Trump or another fascist would have won in 2028, because again, she wasn’t going to do anything substantial.
People ultimately didn’t even stay home just because of Gaza. They stayed home because they were tired of voting for a failed party again and again, election after election, because “democracy was on the line.”
Here’s a hard fucking truth about democracy. For most people, democracy hasn’t been worth jack shit. Remember, the bottom 90% of the country doesn’t actually live in a democracy and hasn’t for decades. US democracy died a long time ago. People just got tired of propping up the facade and decided to finally let the rotten edifice collapse.
Want someone to blame for the current Trump term? Blame Biden for appointing Merrick fucking Garland. And it’s clear that even now, the Democratic leadership hasn’t learned a damn thing. The Democratic Party needs to be burned to ashes. It is irredeemable.
And Garland dragging his feet on prosecuting trump, and Democrats who voted to confirm horrible picks for every position, especially the courts. I didn’t see Obama closing gitmo either.
Why not be mad at Dens for not doing a better job and having better candidates?
That’s like Burger King serving poop burgers and you’re pissed that people stopped eating shit burgers cuz now Burger King is closed and they built a Chick Fil A in it’s place.
That may be the dumbest analogy I’ve ever seen.
No party loyalist will ever admit the party is in any way culpable for its own losses.
How about admitting that the party is culpable and the people who said not to vote for them or people who didn’t vote at all are also culpable, because the world isn’t black and white and there’s plenty of blame to go around?
No?
Black and white world?
Cool.
Well, that precludes being a loyalist, doesn’t it? So clearly not the group to which I was referring. No need to be reductive as I’m not claiming a binary worldview.
It’s kinda fascinating how every single comment section about another Trump news is filled with folks dogging on a minority who voted third-party and not the, what was it, third of the country (?) who didn’t vote at all.
Do you all really think that those who trully didn’t vote because of the Palestine would somehow change the final outcome? Were they that numerous?
This is a genuine question, I’m not trying to be snarky.
Given the highly political atmosphere of Lemmy, I have the impression that most users vote hard. Most in the liberal side were vocal about their desire to vote Kamala to prevent *gestures broadly* from happening. However, users from the tankie instances, amounting to a third of lemmy, regularly decried the democrat option, instead urging protest votes or abstention.
The world isn’t lemmy, lemmy is lemmy. And lemmy has plenty people to clown on for actively choosing this.
It’s not just lemmy, it’s something I’ve seen on other sites as well as traditional media (repeated by news anchors, commentators and even politicians). It’s just weird to me that the focus is on such a small number of voters instead of those who simply didn’t care enough/were prevented from voting/weren’t successfully convinced by the democrats.
It might be different elsewhere but I can only speak to what I see on lemmy, and it seems appropriate here. I don’t check out other sites or watch the news enough to notice their talking points, so I can’t speak on that. I do know that I saw similar calls for protest voting in 2016, and they left a strong negative impression on me.
Vote hard? The ‘liberal’ side was worried about gestures broadly at what’s actually happening in reality right this very moment. Lemmy isn’t an island, it’s a megaphone.
Full ballot, urging others to do the same.
Dude, this is a trans-positive communist Linux forum. We are far from representative of society at large. Lemmy is as much a megaphone as my mouth is a cup. Take a sip, if you dare.
Don’t threaten me with a good time.
I guess we know where you stand then.
America has a FTTP voting system, so time has distilled its presidential election into to 2 real choices. This was one, and the milquetoast status quo party is the other. By that merit, not voting for one party helps the other party, though not as much as voting for the opposite. In our case, the opponent of the milquetoast party is the crypto Nazi party.
I’m not the other person you replied to, but personally I think there was a clear choice between the two candidates in regard to which one was better for the Palestinians given their track records. Granted, maybe not good enough in these voters opinions, given that they enabled a genocide in the first place and refused to swiftly correct that action.
Besides billionaires and straight, white, conservative, “Christian” men, I honestly don’t know who benefits from a Trump/Musk presidency as compared to a Harris/Walz presidency.
I get that democrats weren’t good enough, they rarely are in my opinion either, but I do consider them better than this. And yep, she and Biden enabled a genocide, no argument there. I even empathize with those that feel adamant that either we have justice all, or justice for none. But I think we are a little frustrated that in the fatalistic protest, Kamala’s opponents ensured the doom of not just Palestinians, but women, LGBT+ folk, and likely many more.
But hey, price of eggs and all too, right?
Frankly I’m getting sick and tired of every story about Gaza being filled with smug comments blaming everything on liberal Lemmy members. Biden was a shit candidate who was losing badly before Gaza ever happened. Harris was a golden opportunity to pivot the Biden campaign into something that stood a chance of winning and instead Harris ran on a campaign of “I’m exactly like Biden but a little younger” which is the most gobsmackingly stupid decision of a political campaign in at least a couple decades.
Harris didn’t lose because of Palestine. I mean it didn’t fucking help, but there were plenty of other reasons she lost. So can we please stop with all the annoying smug “are you happy with what you did?” comments? It’s getting really fucking old.
Now for what I actually wanted to say.
Only billionaires are benefiting. Straight, white, conservative, Christian or even men, none of those groups in any combination is benefiting. They may not be getting shafted as hard as others are, but only billionaires are going to see anything even remotely positive out of this.
Thiel is white and certainly not straight, and I guarantee he is immensely benefiting.
Sorry hearing “We told ya so” is so irritating to you. The collective focus will shift over time.
You’re right, Harris absolutely lost because she wasn’t good enough. But yeah, people are going to remind you that the alternative is worse, so that hopefully we can avoid this if there ever is a next time.
Or you could stop and build a string coalition with an action plan.
Kamala didn’t lose because of Palestine. She lost because DNC centrism has been a political dead end since at least 2012. 2020 was the anomaly; Trump only lost because of Covid.
Centrists are just using the Palestine issue as a scapegoat for their own failures. Kamala/Biden was doomed long before Palestine.
The thing is though that I don’t think anyone doesn’t already know that. The people who legitimately didn’t vote for Harris in the general election won’t care because they’ll say “I didn’t vote for Trump either, so it’s not my fault” and no amount of everyone telling them it is or explaining the reality of our terrible first past the post system is going to change that. You’re basically preaching to the choir here and it’s frankly nothing but a distraction from addressing the real and pressing issue of the white nationalist fascists literally seizing power right now. The thousandth “told ya so” post isn’t doing anything more than the last 990 did besides stroking your own ego.
I mean, it’s also part of the discourse in social media, too. The person I replied to actually asked for the opinion related to those who share the same sentiment as I do. In this instance, it is kinda on you that you kept reading the thread.
Though I would agree that the overall focus should be on what we do from here. And to that, I’d like to see some form of organized community action, protest, or something like that start to pick up steam so that I could support or participate in.
The issue is that it’s practically the only thing being commented in any post related to Palestine and it’s drowning out all the useful discussion that needs to be taking place. Pick any post about Palestine and look at the comments and the overwhelming majority of them are some variation on “boy, I bet all those people who refused to vote for Harris are so happy now”, which is about as useful a comment as all the idiots that used to rush to post “First” on articles back in the day.
These “told you so” comments are so pervasive it’s starting to feel vaguely like astroturfing. A bunch of comments encouraging non-Republican voters to fight amongst themselves and drowning out any possible productive discussion or organization sure sounds like it would be a brilliant move by the fascist supporters. I’m not suggesting everyone making those comments is astroturfing or a troll, but the absolute way that’s blanketing all discussion around Palestine sure does make me wonder if some of them are.
There was a poll of non-voters who voted four years ago. The number one reason they gave for not voting was the genocide in Gaza at 29%. I was surprised by this, but yeah you can potentially say she lost because of Palestine.
I agree she was a shit candidate who, if anything, aimed to the right of Biden. The Democrats are terrible. I still voted against Donald Trump. I’m not here to gloat at all, but look at the situation the world is in now.
It’s equally fascinating how people like you think that only one group can be to blame for an electoral loss and that blame can’t be shared.
And if their protest vote changed nothing, what was the point of it?
You’re accusing me of something I never did. I’m asking because pretty much all the blame I’ve seen is put on those protest voters and the topic of non-voters rarely, if ever, comes up in these comments.
I very specifically said “people like you” because I did not know if you were amongst the people I was talking about.
To me saying “people like you” implies similarity between “them” and the person you’re saying it to but whatever.
To reiterate, I don’t think these people are blameless (every bit of resistance counts after all) but I feel like for many normal people, politicians and media commentators, they (pro-Palestinian protesters, LGBT folks etc) became a scapegoat that completely stole the focus from all the rest of the potential voters who didn’t feel strongly enough to oppose an openly fascist candidate. It’s just weird to see.
I don’t think they are being a scapegoat at all. I think they are being told they share in the blame. And they refuse to admit it, some to the point of saying ludicrous things like “ethnic cleansing isn’t as bad as genocide and Harris wanted genocide.”
There is a lot of blame to be shared.
Perhaps I’m just unlucky enough to stumble mostly on comments focusing on them. I was however lucky enough I didn’t have to read explanations like the one you’ve quoted here yet.
That’s for sure.
It was a huge talking point before the election. We really needed to punish Democrats for not stopping Isreal.
There’s a lot of frustration at the segment of the population who 1) vocally said that Harris would be just as bad as trump in regards to Gaza 2) loudly argued that failure to listen to them in regards to Gaza would cost the Democrats the election, and 3) said that anyone who was willing to vote for Harris despite not perfectly walking the line in regards to Gaza was a supporter of genocide. “The lesser of two evils is still a vote for genocide”, and “it’s not like it can be more genocide” are both things that have been said to me.
So, according to the people in question: yes, they are that numerous. I’m incredibly sad that I seem to have been right, but also fuck you to all the absolute assholes who accused me of supporting genocide because I’d rather the president get a middling cease fire and shamefully keep sending munitions to Israel than have us actively send troops to ethnically cleanse Gaza. Congrats! You got what you wanted! No more war in Gaza, because we’re going to finish it now.
Even if they’re in they’re not large enough to matter, electorally, they were consistently aggressively smug and superior to anyone who said that maybe trump wasn’t going to be the savior of the Palestinians, as evidence by his explicit words.
It’s cathartic to be mad at people who were condescending towards you when they were wrong, even if you’d rather not be right, purely because they called you a bad person for wanting the same thing but thinking their way to get it wouldn’t work.
Well, for point 2, they were kind of right. It’s mostly a self fulfilling prophecy, but when a sizable chunk of your voting block says “take this position if you want my vote” and then you take the opposite position it really shouldn’t come as a surprise if you subsequently lose the election. That 100% was on Harris.
Whether Harris would have been better than Trump (for Gaza) is perhaps a more interesting question. Ultimately Israel is going to be using their own troops for this not US troops because US troops aren’t going to go along with gunning down unarmed civilians in mass the way the Israeli troops will. Whether it’s Trump or Harris that wasn’t going to change. The biggest difference is just one of political posturing. Harris would have made disapproving statements and basically said “we’re very disappointed in Israel” while still sending the exact same weapons and funds Trump is sending. Maybe Israel would have played things more low key, maybe not, we’ll never know now. So point 1 is kind of a wash.
Point 3 is really a more abstract moral question I suppose. At what point does something cross over into “supporting genocide”. Does sending money to the Israeli government count? What about doing business with companies that do so? What about having the power to do something about it and instead choosing to do nothing? I think we can all agree that Trump absolutely supports genocide. The argument for if Harris did is far less concrete, and for people who voted for Harris (or I guess Trump for that matter) more nebulous still.
The real problem ultimately though is that none of this existed in a vacuum. If this was literally a referendum on how the US should respond to Israel that would be one thing, but that was such a tiny slice of a much bigger discussion. The biggest and most concerning of which was Trump essentially admitting that he was planning on staging a coup of the US government which meant no matter how the Gaza situation was going to play our Trump absolutely could not be let anywhere near the office of the president.
The election is over though, Harris lost because she ran a shit campaign on proven losing policy. People need to get over that and focus on actually dealing with the shit sandwich we’ve collectively been handed instead of continuing to point fingers and argue about whose fault it was.
It’s funny because millions of people did vote, but it was never counted. And like 2020… These uncounted votes are proven 🤷
That’s another thing I didn’t see brought up nearly enough. Granted, I’m not extremely tuned into American media so maybe it is a hot topic there but yeah, thanks for mentioning it.
Yes, because everyone who could have voted and didn’t bears responsibility for looking the other way while Trump gained the presidency.
And everyone who was vocal at any point about not voting for Harris for any reason is culpable for assisting Trump in gaining the presidency, and for influencing others to do the same.
Got it. It’s all the fault of people, not the inept dnc for this situation.
You made a fucking choice. Take some responsibility for it
Just like it was their choice to do the opposite of whatever got them enthusiasm
the party can never fail only be failed
Well, both.
Seems to most in this thread dnc is faultless though
I hear you… I see tons of dnc hate here too
Which many seem to not want to see or hear
It’s a world filled with people who believe what feels good
I mean if you’re going to dog on minorities then you gotta dog on the white people he has majority support from.
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Yeah, alienating people for not supporting genocide is such an excellent move. Did you happen to work as a strategist with Harris campaign because this is right up their alley.
When you refuse to pick the lesser of two evils, what you are actually saying is you’re comfortable with either one.
When you refuse to see that picking evil will never lead to anything other than additional harm and suffering, you’re saying you’re comfortable with that.
How can you take issue with the person who chose another path and not the one you literally described as “evil?”
and by not picking either “evil” you allowed the worse one to win causing additional harm and suffering, and you’re comfortable with that
you chose nothing thinking your inaction was the start of the great revolution that will fix the world
i’m thinking logic is not your strong suit
In a real life trolley problem, you are supposed to blame the ones driving the train and tying up people to tracks, not the guy pulling the lever.
Yes not voting was stupid, but it’s dumber to actually think they hold the blame. The dems won’t even acknowledge being pro genocide was a bad move and it’s because they feel confident their base has been manipulated to blame a scape goat.
What kind of change are we to expect if we can’t even be vocal about something so ridiculous as supporting genocide even after most of us held the line and voted for it anyways. Keep them accountable and stop giving them an easy out.
You can be vocal about it and still vote for the lesser evil in order to reduce harm and save lives.
This is what almost every legitimate progressive voice I knew did.
It is what I did.
It is what every leftist I know did.
When will libs understand leftists are serious in their coalition building and stop existentially questioning the trustworthiness of our intentions?
Disagree with me, lets talk policy, let us hash out together the 1000 ways things were able to get this bad… but please fucking STOP categorically calling into question our intentions or ability to make the necessary play none of us are excited about. This is baby stuff, leftist discourse discusses this stuff constantly, terminally online leftists by and large get it trust me.
we voted for Harris
we voted for Biden
we voted for Clinton
The people who didn’t turn out to vote weren’t highly informed leftists and more importantly weren’t the kind of people who give a shit about hearing what terminally upset leftists had to say. If you think Sam Seder, Emma Vigeland, Krystal Ball and Kyle Kulinsky, The Rational National, Benjamin Dixon etc… had an impact on unengaged low information voters you are making an absurd leap of thinking… and they advocated for voting for Harris anyways, go back, check the receipts.
Most importantly, the ones who didn’t turn out to vote were in states that don’t matter anyway. Harris actually got more votes than Biden in most key swing states.
This is a thread about what Trump is currently doing and the most upvoted comment is blaming voters. I don’t know what alienating people after the election serves. It’s literally going to make sure they repeat the same behavior, doubly so if the dems feel confident enough to run on apathy a second time.
My point is that currently, most here seem to be vocal about the wrong thing. They voted stupidly but we’re goaded into it by a party that clearly does not represent its constituantes anymore. We should be asking the party to change but we are doing the opposite.
Exactly. The truth is that the current DNC is utterly incapable of actually winning a presidential election, and they have been incapable of it for more than a decade. 2020 was an anomaly; they won only due to covid. Fixating on Gaza will only ensure that the fundamental mistakes aren’t corrected and that Republicans win again in 2028.
It’s a fucking war. Sometimes the only option you get is to put off losing. We didn’t do that, in no small part because of idiot idealists who apparently refuse to understand a concept so basic even chimps get it. Now, thanks to that and SO much more, even being hopeful is approaching the realm of deluded fantasy.
I have no problem alienating people who think their own precious idea of morality is somehow so sacrosanct it can’t be compromised even to actually save the lives they pretend to care about.
Kamala/Biden were already losing before the Palestine conflict started. Palestine did not cause Kamala to lose the election. She could have used Palestine as a signal that she intended to truly strike out in a new direction, but she chose not to do that.
Unfortunately, that kind of radical break from the past was the only hope any Democrat had in 2024. People have this weird view that 2024 is an anomaly. It’s not. 2020 was the anomaly. Trump only lost in 2020 because of covid. If not for covid, Trump would have easily won in 2020.
You might as well be blaming Gaza for the Libertarian party not winning. The existing Democratic party is as nonviable at the presidential level as the Libertarian party is. The current Democratic leadership is fundamentally incapable of winning a national presidential election. They literally are not capable of it. They got lucky in 2020 due to a disaster of historic proportions, but in normal times, they are not capable of wielding a candidate that will win a presidential election.
Only radical change and reform in the DNC can change this. And this is ultimately why scapegoating the handful of people who actually stayed home due to Gaza is counterproductive. If you think Kamala lost in 2024 due to Gaza, you’re going to be sorely, sorely disappointed in 2028 when another DNC centrist fails to win, even when the Gaza issue is no longer on the table.
“It’s a fucking war that’s why we need to give them bombs, arms, jets, cash, and our full support. It’s our only option”
Look, I get it, and I’d be grieving too if I openly supported such atrocities, and it all turned out to be for nothing, but you’re eventually going to find yourself standing alone with the other RadLibs as nobody finds diet-Republican ideals appealing.
I feel like there’s very little chance you intentionally misinterpreted my comment, so in the interest of keeping civil discourse alive: what’s happening in Palestine isn’t a war, it’s a massacre, and I was referring to the nascent civil war and fascist takeover of the US when I said ‘war’ (and to the things like rampant persecution of LGB (and especially T) people, the open violence against the poor and minorities, etc.).
I did misinterpret you, and I agree with what you’re saying in this comment, but I don’t think people like Harris, Biden, or Clinton are on our side in this war, nor are the party leaders who pushed them on us.
I don’t disagree they’re not on our side, I just think they’d have been much less likely to plunge the country into a fascist hellscape and persecute the people I care about.
I won’t deny that it was a stupid move by the dems, but at the same time choosing to abstain from one of the most important elections in US history because you don’t want to choose between the lesser of two evils is just naive. Life is literally full of choosing between the lesser of two evils, inside and outside of politics. And I understand that the situation in Gaza is fucked up, but I also know that by abstaining it only made the situation worse. I know its not 100% their fault as there were many factors that led to Trump winning, but I personally don’t think betting with other people’s lives is altruistic. I think it’s selfish.
What have you actually done about this genocide aside from not making the effort to vote for someone?
Have you made any phone calls? Written any emails? Visited any politicians’ offices?
We tried gentle. Now we’re annoyed and venting because we’re powerless.
And we’re getting dragged into the muck by morons and one issue virtue signaling idiots who are no more informed than them.
Just fuck off. This was your choice.
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Why because I don’t blindly support and fiercely defend a strategy that tanked nearly three Democratic presidential candidates in a row?
Nah, it’s definitely going to work the fourth time. I’m back on board.
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You used that line already. Odd that such an intelligent being as yourself couldn’t formulate some new material.