I feel like accepting a trans person is, in fact, conditional on their support for other trans people. Like, it doesn’t have to be their whole personality, but full-throatedly supporting the anti-trans administration is the exact opposite of supporting the trans community.
The problem with that, again, is that you are outing that you won’t support trans people you disagree with. You can respect Caitlyn’s gender identity and chosen name while still calling her a bloody numpty.
Oh noes, the target of the insult is insulted in a way the target would not approve.
It’s like the insult is meant to inflict abuse on the target.
Logic circuits breaking down.
What will society do?
Insult Caitlin Jenner about everything else she’s a horrible person about. She killed a person, she supports a fascist, she’s an adultular, a narcissist, was on the Kardashians, seriously take your pick. I could talk trash about Caitlin Jenner for a long time without ever bringing up her transition. I don’t need to be transphobic to “inflict abuse”.
The reason people are pin pointing her transition is because she’s actively advocating for a world in which she is deadnamed. She is asking for it, it is mean to show her again how it feels and how stupid she is.
Sure you don’t need to if abuse is the only goal.
It’s a weird boundary to set for abusive language specifically disparaging that quality of their identity to call out the conflict with their support for a person whose policies are hostile to that identity.
Do you know insults aren’t good?
she supports a fascist, she’s an adultular, a narcissist
First, adultular?
Second, that’s exactly what they’re doing & who they’re proudly supporting: restating what they’re shameless about isn’t much of an insult to the subject as it fails to demean & offend.
was on the Kardashians
Do you understand the concept of insult?
They’re unkind.
This is, quite literally, same as Jews for Hitler -movement in pre-The War Germany. There are shades of grey in everything, and everyone. You can be bad or the side of bad people, even if you are a minority.
Except that by misgendering her you’re causing harm to the trans community as a whole. We don’t misgender cisgender people when they are bad people. Misgendering transgender people who do bad things only shows that respecting transgender identity is conditional and can be revoked by other people. It’s not. It’s who we are. Even if someone is a trash fire human being they still should be gendered correctly.
Transphobes will read comments misgendering or deadnaming Caitlyn and cheer along. There are far, far better ways to vocalize disapproval of her. Ways that don’t hurt other trans people.
I appreciate your point. A few months ago I was in a discussion with someone on Lemmy about the strategy of maliciously complying with someone that has insincerely stated a preference for neo-pronouns. The example in the discussion was Elon Musk claiming “prosecute/Fauci” as pronouns, but insincere pronouns aren’t necessarily so easily spotted. (My position was and is that it’s okay to maliciously comply with someone’s professed pronouns to demonstrate that person’s insincerity)
If you’re not tired of tutoring ignorant allies I’d really appreciate your opinion on that dilemma.
The concept is that normalizing dead naming as an insult will result in a cascading effect that harms trans people across the board, right? I’m not trans, but it should be pretty obvious - dead naming is dead naming even if you’re a piece of shit liar.
I thought the “phobia” part was relevant but in looking up definitions of transphobia and homophobia I see that, etymologically, the phobia part seems to be irrelevant. TIL!
I would, if she were to go out with a public opinion that it was okay for trump&allies to call black people removeds and sell them into slavery. I wouldn’t do it on a public internet forum, most likely, but I would do it to her face. It’s following the (her, in this example) premise to its natural conclusion and it’s supposed to be extremely jarring and uncomfortable. It’s similar to satire, where it takes trust to know that the person ‘performing’ isn’t actually espousing what is being acted… which is why an internet forum like here, where nobody trusts nada, isn’t the proper place to do it. Directly responding to them on bluesky like there? More acceptable.
I agree. Looking through the comments, I’m getting that “crabs fighting in the pot, pulling the others back in” vibe. We elevate society by being better. Period. Not being better if.
Nope, obscure infamous internet person. Both relentlessly bullied by 4chan, which is terrible, but they’re also a terrible person in their own right, including raping their elderly mom and going to prison for it. Famous for “Sonichu”, a self made fan character that’s sonic and Pikachu mixed together.
A few years ago they came out as trans, but even that’s been very contentious on whether or not it’s real as faking/lying about that for attention is perfectly in line with their character. I prefer to just use neutral pronouns, some refuse to acknowledge (or just have no fucking clue that the trans thing ever happened, which is why my initial comment was worded in the way that it was).
The Chris Chan saga is vast, if you’re curious just throw that name into YouTube and there’s hours upon hours of content.
The fuck do you think I’m talking about? You think I’m purity testing people by subjecting them to this? No! I just mean it’s very telling when people refer to her as “he” and when called out about it they insist it’s okay because she’s a shitty person or whatever. As if that suddenly makes transphobia okay.
Well I mean, all of the trans communities are on an instance with downvotes disabled for a reason. This place is ‘left wing’ when it comes to Trump but when it comes to LGBTQ+ issues, feminism or even discussion about religion, I have my doubts about how ‘left wing’ people here really are.
seeing alot of transphobia in the comments, light and probably accidental but yes deadnaming caitlyn is transphobia even if she fucking sucks.
it shows the trans people here that your acceptance is conditional on us agreeing with you.
you can call her out for her bs without deadnaming her
I feel like accepting a trans person is, in fact, conditional on their support for other trans people. Like, it doesn’t have to be their whole personality, but full-throatedly supporting the anti-trans administration is the exact opposite of supporting the trans community.
The problem with that, again, is that you are outing that you won’t support trans people you disagree with. You can respect Caitlyn’s gender identity and chosen name while still calling her a bloody numpty.
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The reply to her tweet is on point, though. Any more deadnaming is just deadnaming.
Anyway, I would gladly provide her with HRT and send her to a labor camp as an enemy of the people.
Oh noes, the target of the insult is insulted in a way the target would not approve. It’s like the insult is meant to inflict abuse on the target. Logic circuits breaking down. What will society do?
Insult Caitlin Jenner about everything else she’s a horrible person about. She killed a person, she supports a fascist, she’s an adultular, a narcissist, was on the Kardashians, seriously take your pick. I could talk trash about Caitlin Jenner for a long time without ever bringing up her transition. I don’t need to be transphobic to “inflict abuse”.
The reason people are pin pointing her transition is because she’s actively advocating for a world in which she is deadnamed. She is asking for it, it is mean to show her again how it feels and how stupid she is.
Sure you don’t need to if abuse is the only goal. It’s a weird boundary to set for abusive language specifically disparaging that quality of their identity to call out the conflict with their support for a person whose policies are hostile to that identity. Do you know insults aren’t good?
First, adultular? Second, that’s exactly what they’re doing & who they’re proudly supporting: restating what they’re shameless about isn’t much of an insult to the subject as it fails to demean & offend.
Do you understand the concept of insult? They’re unkind.
This is, quite literally, same as Jews for Hitler -movement in pre-The War Germany. There are shades of grey in everything, and everyone. You can be bad or the side of bad people, even if you are a minority.
Not exactly. If anything it’s conditional on you not selling your allies/kin down the river.
Except that by misgendering her you’re causing harm to the trans community as a whole. We don’t misgender cisgender people when they are bad people. Misgendering transgender people who do bad things only shows that respecting transgender identity is conditional and can be revoked by other people. It’s not. It’s who we are. Even if someone is a trash fire human being they still should be gendered correctly.
Transphobes will read comments misgendering or deadnaming Caitlyn and cheer along. There are far, far better ways to vocalize disapproval of her. Ways that don’t hurt other trans people.
We don’t? I could have sworn cisgender people do that to insult each other all the time. It’s like a classic insult.
Discussing acceptable insults, while technically possible, seems somewhat irrational. The concept of an ethical insult doesn’t make total sense.
It all boils down to the very common phenomenon of thinking certain people, “bad people,” are worthy of any form of attack available.
I appreciate your point. A few months ago I was in a discussion with someone on Lemmy about the strategy of maliciously complying with someone that has insincerely stated a preference for neo-pronouns. The example in the discussion was Elon Musk claiming “prosecute/Fauci” as pronouns, but insincere pronouns aren’t necessarily so easily spotted. (My position was and is that it’s okay to maliciously comply with someone’s professed pronouns to demonstrate that person’s insincerity)
If you’re not tired of tutoring ignorant allies I’d really appreciate your opinion on that dilemma.
The concept is that normalizing dead naming as an insult will result in a cascading effect that harms trans people across the board, right? I’m not trans, but it should be pretty obvious - dead naming is dead naming even if you’re a piece of shit liar.
Rights for one are rights for all. Even elmo
ßtop saying that. That’s a pile of shit. BRUCE is the problem, not your allies.
I’m not disagreeing on morality of misgendering. I’m disagreeing that the misgendering is conditional on agreement.
I don’t want to sound mean with this I’m sure you mean the best but this isn’t a debate
Deadnaming and/or misgendering someone purposefully is transphobia and doing it because they’re a bad person is still transphobia
As a trans person I’m saying that if you are transphobic to someone even if they’re bad is conditional acceptance whether you mean it that way or not
People were deadnaming her in the comments, that’s transphobia not an opinion
This is not what I am disagreeing with you on. I am in full agreement here.
Im disagreeing on this point. It isn’t simply because they’re a bad person.
Agreed
What’s the difference between transphobia and bigotry?
I think you might mean bigotry, albeit a very specific kind.
Yes, and that very specific kind of bigotry is called transphobia…
I thought the “phobia” part was relevant but in looking up definitions of transphobia and homophobia I see that, etymologically, the phobia part seems to be irrelevant. TIL!
would you call Candace Owens the n word? bigotry is about you, not the person you subject it to.
I would, if she were to go out with a public opinion that it was okay for trump&allies to call black people removeds and sell them into slavery. I wouldn’t do it on a public internet forum, most likely, but I would do it to her face. It’s following the (her, in this example) premise to its natural conclusion and it’s supposed to be extremely jarring and uncomfortable. It’s similar to satire, where it takes trust to know that the person ‘performing’ isn’t actually espousing what is being acted… which is why an internet forum like here, where nobody trusts nada, isn’t the proper place to do it. Directly responding to them on bluesky like there? More acceptable.
I would not
I agree. Looking through the comments, I’m getting that “crabs fighting in the pot, pulling the others back in” vibe. We elevate society by being better. Period. Not being better if.
A great litmus test for transphobia is what pronouns people use for Christine Chandler.
I doubt 99.99% of people here have any idea who Chris Chan is.
It’s more like the people that do know her how they refer to her.
I’d say either an obscure character from Friends, or Jackie Chan’s sister?
Nope, obscure infamous internet person. Both relentlessly bullied by 4chan, which is terrible, but they’re also a terrible person in their own right, including raping their elderly mom and going to prison for it. Famous for “Sonichu”, a self made fan character that’s sonic and Pikachu mixed together.
A few years ago they came out as trans, but even that’s been very contentious on whether or not it’s real as faking/lying about that for attention is perfectly in line with their character. I prefer to just use neutral pronouns, some refuse to acknowledge (or just have no fucking clue that the trans thing ever happened, which is why my initial comment was worded in the way that it was).
The Chris Chan saga is vast, if you’re curious just throw that name into YouTube and there’s hours upon hours of content.
I really only know of Chris Chan from a Behind the Bastards episode
Why should weknow them? Did Chandler from Friends come out?
It doesn’t really matter, it’s just an example of someone who’s done some weird and also some bad things who is trans. Never said you should know her.
I think liberals gleefully devising litmus tests is what elected Trump in the first place.
The fuck do you think I’m talking about? You think I’m purity testing people by subjecting them to this? No! I just mean it’s very telling when people refer to her as “he” and when called out about it they insist it’s okay because she’s a shitty person or whatever. As if that suddenly makes transphobia okay.
Well I mean, all of the trans communities are on an instance with downvotes disabled for a reason. This place is ‘left wing’ when it comes to Trump but when it comes to LGBTQ+ issues, feminism or even discussion about religion, I have my doubts about how ‘left wing’ people here really are.
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