It has ALWAYS been the case that the largest provider of aid to the Palestinians is …
Israel.
It’s not even close.
All these other countries, Spain included, do fuck all for the Palestinians, or anything to help solve the crisis.
The entire Gaza strip holds just 2 million people.
If the nations of the world actually wanted this over, they could open their doors to Palestinians. It would take just 20 nations each assimilating 100,000 refugees, and this nightmare would be over.
That’s what this whole debate is. Some people think that a few hundred years is far enough back but others insist we should think about what happened in 1000 BC. There is no “right” answer. We just need a way to stop people getting killed.
Respectfully, I disagree. While there are definitely religious zealots on both sides who will argue about historical rights, the vast majority of people involved look at this as strictly a modern-day issue.
Israel was created as a solution to the problem that millions of Jews were homeless refugees after surviving the Holocaust.
The Arabs could have welcomed them, worked out two-state solution with mutual economic interests and good trade relations. Instead they absolutely refused to give up anything to these poor folks who just barely survived a horrific atrocity that killed a third of their entire population.
That’s not too say that the Jews didn’t also commit atrocities by driving Arabs from their towns.
Just saying, the lack of compassion from the Arab countries was legendary. And they immediately tried to wipe Israel off the map.
For Israel’s entire existence, everything has been about survival, surrounded by genocidal neighbors. They do what they do because they’ve literally been under attack for their nation’s entire history.
I’d also love to see and send to hostilities, but Palestinians with their ZERO bargaining power have decided for decades that they will not agree to any peace deal that doesn’t destroy Israel.
The ball is in their court. Has been for a very long time.
Israel was created because all the countries that the Jews lived in for some reason didn’t want them back and so the western superpowers stole land from Palestine to give to the Jews. No one gave them a choice. Why should their land be stolen because your holy book 1000 years ago says you used to live there?
You guys clearly fucked off and moved. That was your choice. Why should the current people have to lose their land because you all of the sudden wanted to come back?
Also why couldn’t the Jews keep living in the countries that they lived in prior to WW2?
It’s not like the entire population of those countries decided to leave and go somewhere else.
Yeah sorry but I think the “modern day” part has an issue you identified here:
Israel was created as a solution to the problem that millions of Jews were homeless refugees after surviving the Holocaust.
Exactly. Israel was created without the consent of the people already living there, in the British Mandate of Palestine aka Palestine.
The Arabs could have welcomed them, worked out two-state solution with mutual economic interests and good trade relations. Instead they absolutely refused to give up anything to these poor folks
Imagine that Russia renames Crimea and declares it an independent country. Should Ukraine accept the “two state solution”? You cannot brush over the fundamental history of what happened.
You’re right, it is a modern issue, and this is it. It is not accepted by the people who were already living there and it never has been.
Of course in practice I don’t think anyone should be removed from their homes. The solution to this problem shouldn’t be more atrocities. But when we lose sight of the fundamental cause of the issue it’s easy to create this narrative like you just did that people should have welcomed the colonial creation with open arms, even after people were driven from their homes in the nakba and have never been able to return.
It was created with the consent of the sovereign power that controlled the territory. You don’t like that the British controlled the territory, take it up with them. Not Israel’s problem.
How about we start it when the allies decided to dump refugees in the desert instead of integrating them in their own countries. instead their antisemitic asses said “let’s give the Jews a homeland”. Then a few generations of nationalist propaganda and you have the modern state of Israel with no historic ties to the kingdom of Israel besides a name pushing the most ironic genocide.
"It has always been the case that the largest provider of aid to slaves is…
Their owners.
It’s not even close.
All these abolitionists do fuck all for slaves, or anything to help solve the crisis."
Israel has enforced a blockade of Gaza continually since 2007, which has effectively cut the GDP by 50%, and even after aid. 40% of the population lives in abject poverty. Unemployment is 40%. 65% of all babies are anemic. 40% of the population dont have access to sewage, and much of the area experiences power outages up to 16 hours a day. Well, it’s 24 hours now since all food and electricity have been cut off.
I’m not saying the Palestinians are slaves… I’m just saying that Israel is largely responsible for the circumstances there now… just live slavers were responsible for the circumstances of the slaves.
There’s a reason it’s called an “open air prison.” We have to feed our prisoners too, but I don’t think anyone sane considers that investment "charity. "
Terrorism justifies retaliatory attacks against terrorists. Not keeping 2 million civilians poor, starving, and hopeless. All that making people hopeless does is make more terrorists.
How about those nations take all the Israelis and then Palestine can have its land? You know what, please tell me what countries would you happily sign up to have you and all of your families shipped to so that where you live can be given to some other nation that you hate?
Palestinians have had a lot of chances to have their own state and a peace deal over the years. Seems like they could end this “oppression” any time they are willing to take a peace deal that doesn’t involve dissolving Israel.
It’s not so easy, again due to being in this conflict for decades, most of the people are not able to asimilate so easily and Europe had already a pretty bad experience in 2014 with the Syrian Crysis. Even if offered relocation, they most likely would end up in some kind of reservations and be isolated on relocation. The majority of Europeans are afraid of people coming from middle east.
It not just the Syrian crisis they have bad experience with. Many European countries let lots of poor Muslims from North Africa and Turkey in as labor migrants between the 50’s and the 80’s. And many of those European countries are now dealing with the negative consequences from the descendants of those migrants. Among those migrant communities there is, even after a few generations, still high unemployment rates, high dropout rates and high crime rates (and some of those criminals later formed terrorist cells in Europe). Even compared to other migrant communities the numbers are bad. And the main cause of that is that their grandparents who came here didn’t integrate properly into society and didn’t raise their kids well and of course instilled conservative Islamic ideas in their kids’ head (antisemitism, homophobia etc) so those kids also aren’t integrated when they turned into adults. And that’s because most of those Muslim labor migrants were illiterate subsistence farmers with no education and religiously conservative. People in Europe are rightfully afraid that the same shit will happen again when lots of low educated people from the Middle East will come to Europe.
Forget your imaginary scenario. How about focusing on real existing facts? How many Palestinians have the other Muslim countries in the Middle East accepted? How is it a blockade by Israel when there is an Egyptian crossing that nobody ever bothers mentioning? Where is the aid going?
The Palestinian refugee crisis was deliberately manufactured by the surrounding Arab nations. They could easily have welcomed in their fellow Muslims, but… Nah. Better to use them as political pawns for the better part of a century.
It has ALWAYS been the case that the largest provider of aid to the Palestinians is …
Israel.
It’s not even close.
All these other countries, Spain included, do fuck all for the Palestinians, or anything to help solve the crisis.
The entire Gaza strip holds just 2 million people.
If the nations of the world actually wanted this over, they could open their doors to Palestinians. It would take just 20 nations each assimilating 100,000 refugees, and this nightmare would be over.
How about we took 100,000 Israelis each and give the Palestinians their whole country back?
You don’t like that idea, do you?
The difference would be that Palestinians would love to leave the, what do you guys like to call it? “Open air prison”.
You can try to move the Israelis if you want. Let me know how that goes for you.
Yes, the Palestinians would like to return to their homes, in the region that by all rights should be called Palestine.
Sure, if you want to look back in history and then stop when it’s convenient for you, and not dig any further.
That’s what this whole debate is. Some people think that a few hundred years is far enough back but others insist we should think about what happened in 1000 BC. There is no “right” answer. We just need a way to stop people getting killed.
Respectfully, I disagree. While there are definitely religious zealots on both sides who will argue about historical rights, the vast majority of people involved look at this as strictly a modern-day issue.
Israel was created as a solution to the problem that millions of Jews were homeless refugees after surviving the Holocaust.
The Arabs could have welcomed them, worked out two-state solution with mutual economic interests and good trade relations. Instead they absolutely refused to give up anything to these poor folks who just barely survived a horrific atrocity that killed a third of their entire population.
That’s not too say that the Jews didn’t also commit atrocities by driving Arabs from their towns.
Just saying, the lack of compassion from the Arab countries was legendary. And they immediately tried to wipe Israel off the map.
For Israel’s entire existence, everything has been about survival, surrounded by genocidal neighbors. They do what they do because they’ve literally been under attack for their nation’s entire history.
I’d also love to see and send to hostilities, but Palestinians with their ZERO bargaining power have decided for decades that they will not agree to any peace deal that doesn’t destroy Israel.
The ball is in their court. Has been for a very long time.
Israel was created because all the countries that the Jews lived in for some reason didn’t want them back and so the western superpowers stole land from Palestine to give to the Jews. No one gave them a choice. Why should their land be stolen because your holy book 1000 years ago says you used to live there?
You guys clearly fucked off and moved. That was your choice. Why should the current people have to lose their land because you all of the sudden wanted to come back?
Also why couldn’t the Jews keep living in the countries that they lived in prior to WW2?
It’s not like the entire population of those countries decided to leave and go somewhere else.
Yeah sorry but I think the “modern day” part has an issue you identified here:
Exactly. Israel was created without the consent of the people already living there, in the British Mandate of Palestine aka Palestine.
Imagine that Russia renames Crimea and declares it an independent country. Should Ukraine accept the “two state solution”? You cannot brush over the fundamental history of what happened.
You’re right, it is a modern issue, and this is it. It is not accepted by the people who were already living there and it never has been.
Of course in practice I don’t think anyone should be removed from their homes. The solution to this problem shouldn’t be more atrocities. But when we lose sight of the fundamental cause of the issue it’s easy to create this narrative like you just did that people should have welcomed the colonial creation with open arms, even after people were driven from their homes in the nakba and have never been able to return.
It was created with the consent of the sovereign power that controlled the territory. You don’t like that the British controlled the territory, take it up with them. Not Israel’s problem.
People still believe this? Ain’t no way.
Look at the first statement on the Wikipedia page of Zionism. When was it made?
What about the Balfour Declaration? C’mon, there is no way you’re this ignorant. I mean you even typed up a whole-ass paragraph.
The ball is in their court?
Yeah?
Yeah?
Just committed atrocities by driving Arabs from their towns, yeah?
Yeah?
Yeah?
“They just drove them.”
It’s always a treat seeing genocide-apologists trying to twist the narrative.
You just have to look at the date of Israel’s founding to understand that the Holocaust was the catalyst for it’s creation.
How about we start it when the allies decided to dump refugees in the desert instead of integrating them in their own countries. instead their antisemitic asses said “let’s give the Jews a homeland”. Then a few generations of nationalist propaganda and you have the modern state of Israel with no historic ties to the kingdom of Israel besides a name pushing the most ironic genocide.
Genocide?
My bad, I confused you with a serious person for a minute.
"It has always been the case that the largest provider of aid to slaves is…
Their owners.
It’s not even close.
All these abolitionists do fuck all for slaves, or anything to help solve the crisis."
Israel has enforced a blockade of Gaza continually since 2007, which has effectively cut the GDP by 50%, and even after aid. 40% of the population lives in abject poverty. Unemployment is 40%. 65% of all babies are anemic. 40% of the population dont have access to sewage, and much of the area experiences power outages up to 16 hours a day. Well, it’s 24 hours now since all food and electricity have been cut off.
Oh they’re slaves now?
Interesting.
See in a slavery system, owners profit from slave labor.
In the case of Israel, it sure sounds like in every conceivable way Palestinians are a drain on their resources.
Seems like the aid money Israel spends is strictly charity.
And what prompted those blockades, btw? Do you recall? Do you think it might have had something to do with the endless terrorist attacks?
I’m not saying the Palestinians are slaves… I’m just saying that Israel is largely responsible for the circumstances there now… just live slavers were responsible for the circumstances of the slaves.
There’s a reason it’s called an “open air prison.” We have to feed our prisoners too, but I don’t think anyone sane considers that investment "charity. "
Terrorism justifies retaliatory attacks against terrorists. Not keeping 2 million civilians poor, starving, and hopeless. All that making people hopeless does is make more terrorists.
Calling it an “open air prison” is propaganda, not fact.
And saying all Palestinians are terrorists is…?
I’m not saying all Palestinians are terrorists.
I’m saying that Palestinians elected terrorists to represent them.
I’m about 99% sure what you’re describing is classified as genocide
Pretty sure you need to buy a dictionary.
https://www.dictionary.com/browse/genocide
How about those nations take all the Israelis and then Palestine can have its land? You know what, please tell me what countries would you happily sign up to have you and all of your families shipped to so that where you live can be given to some other nation that you hate?
Don’t like that idea? I wonder why
If you think you can move the israelis give it a try.
So they keep oppressing the Palestinians and it’s all good? Okay
Palestinians have had a lot of chances to have their own state and a peace deal over the years. Seems like they could end this “oppression” any time they are willing to take a peace deal that doesn’t involve dissolving Israel.
Ah so they should leave their homes why exactly?
Maybe Israel could stop building illegal settlements in their land? Maybe Israel could not blockade them? Or bomb them or make them starve?
Oh, I see. Gaza is “their homes” when we talk about relocating them, but “an open air prison” at all other times?
It can’t be both?
Uh… Maybe part of that is because Israel actively engineered the current situation where Palestinians don’t have functional states?
It’s not so easy, again due to being in this conflict for decades, most of the people are not able to asimilate so easily and Europe had already a pretty bad experience in 2014 with the Syrian Crysis. Even if offered relocation, they most likely would end up in some kind of reservations and be isolated on relocation. The majority of Europeans are afraid of people coming from middle east.
It not just the Syrian crisis they have bad experience with. Many European countries let lots of poor Muslims from North Africa and Turkey in as labor migrants between the 50’s and the 80’s. And many of those European countries are now dealing with the negative consequences from the descendants of those migrants. Among those migrant communities there is, even after a few generations, still high unemployment rates, high dropout rates and high crime rates (and some of those criminals later formed terrorist cells in Europe). Even compared to other migrant communities the numbers are bad. And the main cause of that is that their grandparents who came here didn’t integrate properly into society and didn’t raise their kids well and of course instilled conservative Islamic ideas in their kids’ head (antisemitism, homophobia etc) so those kids also aren’t integrated when they turned into adults. And that’s because most of those Muslim labor migrants were illiterate subsistence farmers with no education and religiously conservative. People in Europe are rightfully afraid that the same shit will happen again when lots of low educated people from the Middle East will come to Europe.
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Forget your imaginary scenario. How about focusing on real existing facts? How many Palestinians have the other Muslim countries in the Middle East accepted? How is it a blockade by Israel when there is an Egyptian crossing that nobody ever bothers mentioning? Where is the aid going?
Exactly.
The Palestinian refugee crisis was deliberately manufactured by the surrounding Arab nations. They could easily have welcomed in their fellow Muslims, but… Nah. Better to use them as political pawns for the better part of a century.
Easily is a stretch considering history. They just don’t get flak about it.