I clarified the comment above which was misunderstood, whether it makes a moral/sane argument is subjective and i am not covering that.
I am not sure why you think there is a claim that openAI is trying to make companies pay, on the contrary the comment i was clarifying (so not my opinion/words) states that openAI is making an argument that anyone should be able to use copyrighted materials for free to train AI.
The costs of running an online service like chatgpt is wildly besides the argument presented. You can run your own open source large language models at home about as well as you can run Bethesda’s Starfield on a same spec’d PC
Those Open source large language models are trained on the same collections of data including copyrighted data.
The logic being used here is:
If It becomes globally forbidden to train AI with copyrighted materials or there is a large price or fine in order to use them for training then the Non-Corporate, Free, Open Source Side of AI will perish or have to go underground while to the For-Profit mega corporations will continue exploit and train ai as usual because they can pay to settle in court.
The Ethical dilemma as i understand it is:
Allowing Ai to train for free is a direct threat towards creatives and a win for BigProfit Enthertainment, not allowing it to train to free is treat to public democratic AI and a win for BigTech merging with BigCrime
Allowing Ai to train for free is a direct threat towards creatives
No. Many creatives fear that AI allows anyone to do what they do, lowering the skill premium they can charge. That doesn’t depend on free training.
Some seem to feel that paying for training will delay AI deployment for some years, allowing the good times to continue (until they retire or die?)
But afterward, you have to ask who’s paying for the extra cost when AI is a normal tool for creatives? Where does the money come from to pay the rent to property owners? Obviously the general public will pay a part through higher prices. But I think creatives may bear the brunt, because it’s the tools of their trade that are more expensive and I don’t think all of that cost can be passed on.
I don’t think lowering the skill level is something we will need to worry about as over time this actually trickles up, A Creative professional trained with AI tools will almost always top a Amateur using the same tools.
The real issue is Style. If you are an Artist with a very recognizable specific style, and you make your money trough commissions you are basically screwed.
Many Artists feature a personal style and while borrowing peoples style is common (disney-esque) it’s usually not a problem because within a unique and diverse human mind it rarely results in unintentional latent copying.
I think, in the short run, some have reason to worry about their skills. AI does make digital skills more important and manual drawing skills less so.
OTOH, I don’t think it’s reasonable to worry about styles. Go to aliexpress or some such place and look for paintings. They offer cheap “handmade” paintings and replicas of famos works. They don’t offer novel paintings in someone else’s style. I don’t believe there is any demand for that.
The people i worry about most are the independent “starvin” artists you may find at conventions or working from their social media profile.
They often do personalized commissioned pieces, what they are essential selling is the clients idea in a chosen style which they have mastered.
That entire biz is at risk of going away. I believe the talent of those artists is still valuable though so it is my hope they can go on and make higher level art using the tools they are fighting now.
That is very well put, I really wish I could have started with that.
Though I envision it as a loss for BigProfit Enthertainment since I see this as a real boon for the indie gaming, animation and eventually filmmaking industry.
You can run your own open source large language models at home about as well as you can run Bethesda’s Starfield on a same spec’d PC
…
Yes, you can download an executable of a chatbot lol.
That’s different than running something remotely like even OpenAI.
The more it has to reference, the more the system scales up. Not just storage, but everything else.
Like, in your example of video games it would be more like stripping down a PS5 game of all the assets, then playing it on a NES at 1 frame per five minutes.
You’re not only wildly overestimating chatbots ability, you’re doing that while drastically underestimating the resources needed.
Edit:
I think you literally don’t know what people are talking about…
Do you think people are talking about AI image generators?
I am talking about generative AI, be it text or image both have a challenge with copyrighted material.
“executable of a chatbot”
lol, aint you cute
“example of video games”
Are you refering to my joke?
I am far from overestimating capacity, Starfield runs mediocre on a modern gaming system compared to other games.
The Vicuna 13b llm runs mediocre on the same system compared with gpt 3.5. To this date there is no local model that i would trust for professional use and chatgpt 3.5 doesnt hit that level either.
But it remains a very interesting, rapidly evolving technology that i hope receives as much future open source support as possible.
“I think you literally don’t know what people are talking about”
I hate to break it to you but you’re embarrassing yourself.
I presume you must believe the the following lemmy community and resources to be typed up by a group of children, either that or your just naive.
HOT TAKE: Hugging face is run by people who are really into chatbots but dont understand it in the slightest.
I have been patient and friendly so far but your tone has been nothing but dismissive.
you cannot have a nuanced conversation about AI while excluding the entire Open Source field within it. That’s simply unreasonable and i plore you to ask others because i know you wont take my word for it.
That’s insane logic…
Like you’re essentially saying I can copy/paste any article without a paywall to my own blog and sell adspace on it…
And your still saying OpenAI is trying to make AI companies pay?
Like, do you think AI runs off free cloud services? The hardware is insanely expensive.
And OpenAI is trying to argue the opposite, that AI companies shouldn’t have to pay to use copyrighted works.
You have zero idea what is going on, but you are really confident you do
I clarified the comment above which was misunderstood, whether it makes a moral/sane argument is subjective and i am not covering that.
I am not sure why you think there is a claim that openAI is trying to make companies pay, on the contrary the comment i was clarifying (so not my opinion/words) states that openAI is making an argument that anyone should be able to use copyrighted materials for free to train AI.
The costs of running an online service like chatgpt is wildly besides the argument presented. You can run your own open source large language models at home about as well as you can run Bethesda’s Starfield on a same spec’d PC
Those Open source large language models are trained on the same collections of data including copyrighted data.
The logic being used here is:
The Ethical dilemma as i understand it is:
No. Many creatives fear that AI allows anyone to do what they do, lowering the skill premium they can charge. That doesn’t depend on free training.
Some seem to feel that paying for training will delay AI deployment for some years, allowing the good times to continue (until they retire or die?)
But afterward, you have to ask who’s paying for the extra cost when AI is a normal tool for creatives? Where does the money come from to pay the rent to property owners? Obviously the general public will pay a part through higher prices. But I think creatives may bear the brunt, because it’s the tools of their trade that are more expensive and I don’t think all of that cost can be passed on.
I don’t think lowering the skill level is something we will need to worry about as over time this actually trickles up, A Creative professional trained with AI tools will almost always top a Amateur using the same tools.
The real issue is Style. If you are an Artist with a very recognizable specific style, and you make your money trough commissions you are basically screwed. Many Artists feature a personal style and while borrowing peoples style is common (disney-esque) it’s usually not a problem because within a unique and diverse human mind it rarely results in unintentional latent copying.
I think, in the short run, some have reason to worry about their skills. AI does make digital skills more important and manual drawing skills less so.
OTOH, I don’t think it’s reasonable to worry about styles. Go to aliexpress or some such place and look for paintings. They offer cheap “handmade” paintings and replicas of famos works. They don’t offer novel paintings in someone else’s style. I don’t believe there is any demand for that.
The people i worry about most are the independent “starvin” artists you may find at conventions or working from their social media profile. They often do personalized commissioned pieces, what they are essential selling is the clients idea in a chosen style which they have mastered. That entire biz is at risk of going away. I believe the talent of those artists is still valuable though so it is my hope they can go on and make higher level art using the tools they are fighting now.
That is very well put, I really wish I could have started with that.
Though I envision it as a loss for BigProfit Enthertainment since I see this as a real boon for the indie gaming, animation and eventually filmmaking industry.
It’s definitely overall quite a messy situation.
…
Yes, you can download an executable of a chatbot lol.
That’s different than running something remotely like even OpenAI.
The more it has to reference, the more the system scales up. Not just storage, but everything else.
Like, in your example of video games it would be more like stripping down a PS5 game of all the assets, then playing it on a NES at 1 frame per five minutes.
You’re not only wildly overestimating chatbots ability, you’re doing that while drastically underestimating the resources needed.
Edit:
I think you literally don’t know what people are talking about…
Do you think people are talking about AI image generators?
No one else is…
I think you’re confusing training it with running it. After it’s trained, you can run it on much weaker hardware.
The issue is it reproducing copyrighted works verbatim…
It can’t do that unless it contains the entire text to begin with…
I am talking about generative AI, be it text or image both have a challenge with copyrighted material.
Are you refering to my joke?
I am far from overestimating capacity, Starfield runs mediocre on a modern gaming system compared to other games. The Vicuna 13b llm runs mediocre on the same system compared with gpt 3.5. To this date there is no local model that i would trust for professional use and chatgpt 3.5 doesnt hit that level either.
But it remains a very interesting, rapidly evolving technology that i hope receives as much future open source support as possible.
I presume you must believe the the following lemmy community and resources to be typed up by a group of children, either that or your just naive.
https://lemmy.world/c/fosai
https://www.fosai.xyz/
https://github.com/huggingface/transformers
https://huggingface.co/spaces/HuggingFaceH4/open_llm_leaderboard
https://huggingface.co/microsoft/phi-2 & https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/blog/phi-2-the-surprising-power-of-small-language-models/
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2023/may/05/google-engineer-open-source-technology-ai-openai-chatgpt
Or…
I could just block some of the people who are really really into chatbots, but don’t understand it in the slightest.
I think that might be more productive than reading a bunch of stuff from other people who don’t understand it.
HOT TAKE: Hugging face is run by people who are really into chatbots but dont understand it in the slightest.
I have been patient and friendly so far but your tone has been nothing but dismissive.
you cannot have a nuanced conversation about AI while excluding the entire Open Source field within it. That’s simply unreasonable and i plore you to ask others because i know you wont take my word for it.
Farewell