That would make it a parody of democracy like China or Russia.
If I lived in China or Russia, I would still vote if I could. I’d have to avoid psyop candidates for my own safety, but I’d definitely exert what little will I had to pick the lesser evils.
Why? Even with those shit elections, the are some issues on the ballot. I couldn’t choose any anti authoritarian candidates, but I could vote for someone who’d be better on more contested issues. Maybe I could choose a candidate that follows science more, or is less aggressive about invading Taiwan. That last one is a big deal, as war is way worse than most people think. It’s honestly hard to have net gains out of wars for the ones fighting.
In local elections, you can build up support for a slightly better narrative; a narrative that won’t directly question the state, but make it suck less. States suck, but you HAVE to exist in them until they actually collapse. You can undermine them, but only if you have a plan. That strategy must be thought out, organized, and prepared for, just like how the theocratic fascists have done it. They built to the movement that exists now, convincing Christians to abandon liberalism in any form. They did this by WINNING elections, not by boycotting them.
If anything, it could be argued that a collapse of liberalism under Biden would be better for revolutionaries than a fascist takeover that eventually collapses. That fascist state will crush all leftist organizing in ways that liberals wouldn’t even think of. They will force all Marxist discussions underground and do frequent raids of the tunnels. That doesn’t sound like breeding ground for leftism to me.
If a liberal state collapses, people will be unenthusiastic about liberalism. If a fascist state that used to be liberal collapses, liberals can more easily argue that we need to return to liberalism. The only way your perspective makes sense is if you assume liberalism can’t collapse without turning to fascism. I doubt that’s backed up by history. Liberal states might turn authoritarian in their final moments, but that isn’t really like the populist fascism of Trump.
Liberals are already fighting leftists. With more subtle ways than fascists are doing, but they are fighting hard.
In France the liberals spent months to convince people that the left was more dangerous than the fascists. They are litteraly fighting the left with the police. Forbidding protests and breaking them with heavy police forces. They are cooperating with the fascists, making laws with them against immigration and workers.
Basically the liberals are turning fascist light in order to fight the left. It’s the most violent, the most radical Liberal government the Vth Republic had. Some conservative are also talking about giving the president a third run eventhough that’s forbidden by the constitution.
The liberals don’t fight fascism. They never did and they will never do it. They ally with them when they feel threatened. They join them when they feel there’s an opportunity to do it.
It’s been 40 years of this game in France. Liberals pretend to be left. When in power, they betray and do hard liberalism instead. And they blame all the problems on a lack of liberalism, and on immigration. Exactly like the fascists. So naturally people go to the far right.
What’s left is two nuances of fascism.
The left is fighting still though. The fight is to be done on the left first sadly, because so many people are trying to win the race, believing that the liberals in power are not so bad in the meantime.
I’d rather have a fascist leader so that the liberals may wake up while the State is still robust enough to not turn this into a disaster. Because the longer we wait, the more the liberals will dismantle everything. And when there’s no barrier, no counterpower, and they already started political repression, then the fascists will only have to do the same, but better.
Maybe that’s why you’re so scared btw. Maybe your country already lost too many of its defenses against fascism. If it is the case, you’re doomed. It’s already too late. You’re fighting to save a sinking ship.
I’m not gonna vote in your country, but I will do everything I can for mine to not turn into a sinking ship. And it means not supporting the people who are actively sabotaging it.
Again, all I hear is “sorry, accept your death so the leftists from non minoritized groups can bring about rapture.” It’s always sad to see cultists like you. You care more about protecting your identity than protecting your life, ignoring easily proven truths to prevent being wrong.
We don’t agree on facts, making reasoning impossible. I think that fascism is far worse than liberalism, while you think they’re comparable challenges. I see no benefits for fascism, you think it’s an opportunity.
“Cut a liberal, a fascists bleeds,” yet liberals and leftists died side by side in the good fight, WWII, and fights against fascist governments in the global south. Many other liberals and leftists stood by the sidelines as well.
“Imperialism is the highest form of capitalism,” yet the Cold War was, in practical terms, a struggle between empires with blue and red excuses.
“The US has no left wing party and is far right by global standards,” yet most parliamentary systems see leftists in power when they form coalitions with the more left leaning liberals. More often than leftists, liberals or even the far right are able to form majority coalitions by themselves. The US is also to the left of most countries, not because it isn’t a corrupt plutocracy, but because most other countries are more dysfunctional liberal democracies, or fascist theocracies already.
Every county followed a similar strategy of increasing neoliberalism during the last 50 years, until every country started abandoning free trade in favor of nationalist policies following the financial crisis. Neoliberalism is on a downturn, yet many leftists haven’t realized it because they equate it with capitalism. Capitalism has continued its steady erosion of material conditions, but not because of neoliberalism. The Marxist lens is not designed with nationalism in mind. It’s a big fucking deal as fascism grows, and y’all don’t appreciate it.
I don’t call myself a socialist even though I want the closest thing to communism we can achieve. I don’t call myself a liberal even though I see many constructs like rights, free expression, or democratic representation as useful. I will be honest with what I believe, but I am wary of any political identity. Identity is not ideology. It can easily overtake principles and focus movements towards existence rather than achievements.
You’re distorting my words. So either you don’t understand, you didn’t read, or you don’t care.
I’m not equating liberalism and fascism. They’re not the same. What I’m saying is that liberalism leads to fascism. And thus, blaming leftists for not voting for liberals is dishonest.
The fault is not on the leftist. It is on the liberals. And voting liberals will not save you from fascism. It merely makes you an accomplice of the liberals, because they will claim your vote to support their policies.
Your whole argumentation is based on the fear of fascism. That’s barely better than fascism that relies on the fear of immigrants.
Blame is an overrated concept. It only serves an instrumental purpose. It can help us make better predictions of how people will behave in the future, but it has no inherent value. Mechanically, liberal shittyness and their contributions to rising fascism means we can predict how much support they’ll give us. It shows what matters to them and the calculus behind their actions.
Often they make their imprudent decisions because they have an inadequate understanding of the human ecosystem. They don’t consider how the economic suffering caused by deregulation and policies that favor the rich are the system’s biggest existential threat. Politicians worry about their political existence instead of the system’s existence. When fascism is at the gates, preservation of the system matters more to their personal existence.
This is probably why you think leftists have a bargaining advantage, and they do. The left can allow liberalism to suffer, but they’ll suffer with it. It’s a game of chicken, a gamble, and not the only tool the left has. They could, and this might shock you, focus more on local politics and primary elections. They don’t need to play chicken to get a leg up on liberals; they can win primaries and build leftist sentiment while doing so.
The DSA has 3 current members in congress, who represent ~2.25 million Americans. You might scoff at this small number in the grand scheme of things, but you also might not know how tiny their actual membership is. They have never had more than 100k active members. They’ve elected officials while being a similar size to lemmy, this tiny corner of the internet. And those are just current DSA congress members; there are 3 other former members in office because of DSA support.
Leftists often believe electoral politics are a waste of time, yet they’re ignorant of how much it has affected their current movement. Obama’s ACA might have sucked, but it made single payer a significant part of the conversation. With no ACA, Bernie wouldn’t have basically won the 2016 primary, a presidential run that made socialism a far more popular idea in America. Current DSA Representatives have promoted leftist ideas and positions more than they’ve affected votes in congress. They’re a handful of votes, yet they’ve provided a dissenting voice to liberal slop.
Most of the people who vote for DSA members are left leaning liberals; liberals who have played a greater role in promoting leftism than any proud anti-voter I’ve ever met in person. I’m not saying you need to join the DSA and volunteer for their candidates. Just spend a few hours of your year voting.
Even if you still don’t vote, VOLUNTEER IN YOUR COMMUNITY FFS. Local politics, electoral or otherwise, are the backbone of every single successful movement. Provide services to those in need. Follow cops around with guns. Educate people about politics. Do the leg work to improve lives. That’s what earns trust and support. Providing
Sorry, I forgot you weren’t American. The point still stands. Vote and get involved in your country’s government. Ally with the relative center in electoral politics; that’s how it fundamentally works for leftists. Until the left is a majority, you will need to ally with liberals. The executive leader will always be a compromise with the center, even if they’re from the left. That’s why voting is only the starting point. Visible dissension alone is powerful, so make yourself hard to ignore.
I provided an in depth essay, but “vote Biden or else we’re doomed” is still the bottom line. The jabs helped me determine how valuable the essay would be. If you were a full on troll, you’d have crashed the conversation when I showed disrespect. More importantly, it’s fun to be sassy :)
![Accelerationist [RULE]](https://files.catbox.moe/052f42.jpeg){kind=link}
If I lived in China or Russia, I would still vote if I could. I’d have to avoid psyop candidates for my own safety, but I’d definitely exert what little will I had to pick the lesser evils.
Why? Even with those shit elections, the are some issues on the ballot. I couldn’t choose any anti authoritarian candidates, but I could vote for someone who’d be better on more contested issues. Maybe I could choose a candidate that follows science more, or is less aggressive about invading Taiwan. That last one is a big deal, as war is way worse than most people think. It’s honestly hard to have net gains out of wars for the ones fighting.
In local elections, you can build up support for a slightly better narrative; a narrative that won’t directly question the state, but make it suck less. States suck, but you HAVE to exist in them until they actually collapse. You can undermine them, but only if you have a plan. That strategy must be thought out, organized, and prepared for, just like how the theocratic fascists have done it. They built to the movement that exists now, convincing Christians to abandon liberalism in any form. They did this by WINNING elections, not by boycotting them.
If anything, it could be argued that a collapse of liberalism under Biden would be better for revolutionaries than a fascist takeover that eventually collapses. That fascist state will crush all leftist organizing in ways that liberals wouldn’t even think of. They will force all Marxist discussions underground and do frequent raids of the tunnels. That doesn’t sound like breeding ground for leftism to me.
If a liberal state collapses, people will be unenthusiastic about liberalism. If a fascist state that used to be liberal collapses, liberals can more easily argue that we need to return to liberalism. The only way your perspective makes sense is if you assume liberalism can’t collapse without turning to fascism. I doubt that’s backed up by history. Liberal states might turn authoritarian in their final moments, but that isn’t really like the populist fascism of Trump.
Liberals are already fighting leftists. With more subtle ways than fascists are doing, but they are fighting hard.
In France the liberals spent months to convince people that the left was more dangerous than the fascists. They are litteraly fighting the left with the police. Forbidding protests and breaking them with heavy police forces. They are cooperating with the fascists, making laws with them against immigration and workers.
Basically the liberals are turning fascist light in order to fight the left. It’s the most violent, the most radical Liberal government the Vth Republic had. Some conservative are also talking about giving the president a third run eventhough that’s forbidden by the constitution.
The liberals don’t fight fascism. They never did and they will never do it. They ally with them when they feel threatened. They join them when they feel there’s an opportunity to do it.
It’s been 40 years of this game in France. Liberals pretend to be left. When in power, they betray and do hard liberalism instead. And they blame all the problems on a lack of liberalism, and on immigration. Exactly like the fascists. So naturally people go to the far right.
What’s left is two nuances of fascism.
The left is fighting still though. The fight is to be done on the left first sadly, because so many people are trying to win the race, believing that the liberals in power are not so bad in the meantime.
I’d rather have a fascist leader so that the liberals may wake up while the State is still robust enough to not turn this into a disaster. Because the longer we wait, the more the liberals will dismantle everything. And when there’s no barrier, no counterpower, and they already started political repression, then the fascists will only have to do the same, but better.
Maybe that’s why you’re so scared btw. Maybe your country already lost too many of its defenses against fascism. If it is the case, you’re doomed. It’s already too late. You’re fighting to save a sinking ship.
I’m not gonna vote in your country, but I will do everything I can for mine to not turn into a sinking ship. And it means not supporting the people who are actively sabotaging it.
Again, all I hear is “sorry, accept your death so the leftists from non minoritized groups can bring about rapture.” It’s always sad to see cultists like you. You care more about protecting your identity than protecting your life, ignoring easily proven truths to prevent being wrong.
After all this conversation you still don’t understand. This is sad.
We don’t agree on facts, making reasoning impossible. I think that fascism is far worse than liberalism, while you think they’re comparable challenges. I see no benefits for fascism, you think it’s an opportunity.
“Cut a liberal, a fascists bleeds,” yet liberals and leftists died side by side in the good fight, WWII, and fights against fascist governments in the global south. Many other liberals and leftists stood by the sidelines as well.
“Imperialism is the highest form of capitalism,” yet the Cold War was, in practical terms, a struggle between empires with blue and red excuses.
“The US has no left wing party and is far right by global standards,” yet most parliamentary systems see leftists in power when they form coalitions with the more left leaning liberals. More often than leftists, liberals or even the far right are able to form majority coalitions by themselves. The US is also to the left of most countries, not because it isn’t a corrupt plutocracy, but because most other countries are more dysfunctional liberal democracies, or fascist theocracies already.
Every county followed a similar strategy of increasing neoliberalism during the last 50 years, until every country started abandoning free trade in favor of nationalist policies following the financial crisis. Neoliberalism is on a downturn, yet many leftists haven’t realized it because they equate it with capitalism. Capitalism has continued its steady erosion of material conditions, but not because of neoliberalism. The Marxist lens is not designed with nationalism in mind. It’s a big fucking deal as fascism grows, and y’all don’t appreciate it.
I don’t call myself a socialist even though I want the closest thing to communism we can achieve. I don’t call myself a liberal even though I see many constructs like rights, free expression, or democratic representation as useful. I will be honest with what I believe, but I am wary of any political identity. Identity is not ideology. It can easily overtake principles and focus movements towards existence rather than achievements.
You’re distorting my words. So either you don’t understand, you didn’t read, or you don’t care.
I’m not equating liberalism and fascism. They’re not the same. What I’m saying is that liberalism leads to fascism. And thus, blaming leftists for not voting for liberals is dishonest.
The fault is not on the leftist. It is on the liberals. And voting liberals will not save you from fascism. It merely makes you an accomplice of the liberals, because they will claim your vote to support their policies.
Your whole argumentation is based on the fear of fascism. That’s barely better than fascism that relies on the fear of immigrants.
Blame is an overrated concept. It only serves an instrumental purpose. It can help us make better predictions of how people will behave in the future, but it has no inherent value. Mechanically, liberal shittyness and their contributions to rising fascism means we can predict how much support they’ll give us. It shows what matters to them and the calculus behind their actions.
Often they make their imprudent decisions because they have an inadequate understanding of the human ecosystem. They don’t consider how the economic suffering caused by deregulation and policies that favor the rich are the system’s biggest existential threat. Politicians worry about their political existence instead of the system’s existence. When fascism is at the gates, preservation of the system matters more to their personal existence.
This is probably why you think leftists have a bargaining advantage, and they do. The left can allow liberalism to suffer, but they’ll suffer with it. It’s a game of chicken, a gamble, and not the only tool the left has. They could, and this might shock you, focus more on local politics and primary elections. They don’t need to play chicken to get a leg up on liberals; they can win primaries and build leftist sentiment while doing so.
The DSA has 3 current members in congress, who represent ~2.25 million Americans. You might scoff at this small number in the grand scheme of things, but you also might not know how tiny their actual membership is. They have never had more than 100k active members. They’ve elected officials while being a similar size to lemmy, this tiny corner of the internet. And those are just current DSA congress members; there are 3 other former members in office because of DSA support.
Leftists often believe electoral politics are a waste of time, yet they’re ignorant of how much it has affected their current movement. Obama’s ACA might have sucked, but it made single payer a significant part of the conversation. With no ACA, Bernie wouldn’t have basically won the 2016 primary, a presidential run that made socialism a far more popular idea in America. Current DSA Representatives have promoted leftist ideas and positions more than they’ve affected votes in congress. They’re a handful of votes, yet they’ve provided a dissenting voice to liberal slop.
Most of the people who vote for DSA members are left leaning liberals; liberals who have played a greater role in promoting leftism than any proud anti-voter I’ve ever met in person. I’m not saying you need to join the DSA and volunteer for their candidates. Just spend a few hours of your year voting.
Even if you still don’t vote, VOLUNTEER IN YOUR COMMUNITY FFS. Local politics, electoral or otherwise, are the backbone of every single successful movement. Provide services to those in need. Follow cops around with guns. Educate people about politics. Do the leg work to improve lives. That’s what earns trust and support. Providing
You really should stop with the ad hominem. I am irrelevant to the discussion because I’m not even a US citizen. I don’t live in the US.
Now this is a far better and more convincing argumentation than the “vote Biden or else we’re doomed” of the beginning.
Sorry, I forgot you weren’t American. The point still stands. Vote and get involved in your country’s government. Ally with the relative center in electoral politics; that’s how it fundamentally works for leftists. Until the left is a majority, you will need to ally with liberals. The executive leader will always be a compromise with the center, even if they’re from the left. That’s why voting is only the starting point. Visible dissension alone is powerful, so make yourself hard to ignore.
I provided an in depth essay, but “vote Biden or else we’re doomed” is still the bottom line. The jabs helped me determine how valuable the essay would be. If you were a full on troll, you’d have crashed the conversation when I showed disrespect. More importantly, it’s fun to be sassy :)