I still continue to fail to understand the logic these people are trying to use.
I completely understand the dissatisfaction with the Biden administration and his support for an ally who is currently committing genocide on the daily. And if there were a candidate who wasn’t a completely batshit wannabe dictator, I’d at least understand why they’d vote for anyone else over Biden, if not agree with it.
But this is not the case. What these people fail to understand because they’re literally blinded with rage is that the only other option is exponentially worse. Trump isn’t going to stop Israel from bombing Gaza into oblivion. He’s said as much. He basically wants to glass the entire area. Do these people not realize that what Trump wants to do is exponentially worse?
Voting for Trump because you don’t like Biden’s policies on Israel and Gaza isn’t shooting yourself in the foot. It’s shooting yourself in the foot, then reloading the shotgun when you realize you missed a few toes, then wondering why the hell your foot hurts and you’re bleeding all over the place.
I understand the rationale of “I cannot in good conscience vote for a man who has supported and partially funded a brutal genocide.” But at the same time, you’re advocating for a man who’s literally campaigning on “I’ll genocide harder!”. Why?
If you think Trump is, in any situation, a viable option for anything, please seek professional help immediately. There is never a situation where Donald Trump’s decisions or actions are ever going to make your life better. Full stop.
Not everyone in the Arab world looks favorably upon Palestine. They don’t care that Trump plans to escalate the genocide.
A lot of them are socially/fiscally conservative. Just because the Republicans lean overwhelmingly Christian doesn’t mean that their values differ entirely from Islam. Anyone who hates abortion, gay/trans people, and wants to keep drugs criminalized will be more inclined to vote Republican despite the widespread islamophobia.
The anti-Biden campaign, which is taking advantage of the Israel-Palestine conflict, has been successful at convincing voters, even if they are unwittingly voting against their own self-interest. The Republicans are good at that, such as how effectively they sway members of the working class towards supporting rich oligarchs and racial minorities to vote for racist candidates.
Not everyone in the Arab world looks favorably upon Palestine. They don’t care that Trump plans to escalate the genocide.
So if they either don’t care about Palestine or want to escalate the genocide, then why the hell do they care about Biden’s handling of the situation in the first place?
At best, they should be indifferent, no?
A lot of them are socially/fiscally conservative. Just because the Republicans lean overwhelmingly Christian doesn’t mean that their values differ entirely from Islam. Anyone who hates abortion, gay/trans people, and wants to keep drugs criminalized will be more inclined to vote Republican despite the widespread islamophobia.
This is a classic example of voting against their own interests.
The anti-Biden campaign, which is taking advantage of the Israel-Palestine conflict, has been successful at convincing voters, even if they are unwittingly voting against their own self-interest. The Republicans are good at that, such as how effectively they sway members of the working class towards supporting rich oligarchs and racial minorities to vote for racist candidates.
This is very true. If you can say one thing about the GOP, they’re specialists at getting the message out and convincing people to vote against their own interests.
You’re failing to understand because people are near-braindead levels of stupid. Democracy only works when the populous is generally well educated. We’ve been shooting ourselves in the foot in regards to education for a long time in this country that most people come out with the intelligence of a 5th grader, then say stupid things like “Trump is better than Biden”.
And what do they think is going to happen with Trump? A man who has already gone on record saying he’d do that and more?
Like I’ve repeatedly said, I understand and even support their point of view regarding Biden. But their only alternative is exponentially worse, and voting for Trump because you’re pissed off at Biden is a textbook example of cutting off your own nose to spite your face.
I legitimately don’t know how to handle these sorts of situations. I’ve learned that my methods don’t work on people with strong emotions on a subject without a 1 on 1 and some intoxicants.
I don’t believe this myself, but there is a not entirely ridiculous argument that when Democrats are doing the militarism against Arabs there’s no resistance at all, while when Republicans do it the Democrats (and aligned media) at least try to work against them. I don’t think that’s how it actually works out (I think the Democrats don’t really try and thus are completely ineffective), but I can see why a rational person could come to that belief.
Like take the protests right now vs. BLM. BLM wasn’t exactly a great performance by the Democrats, but there was at least some token support for the validity of their cause, but since Biden’s in power and the protests are in some part a criticism of him, everyone’s working overtime to discredit them and pretend like the only thing worth talking about it some smattering of antisemitism. There may be platitudes about having the “right to protest” while studiously avoiding referencing the reason they’re doing it, but most of the messaging is about outsider agitators, antisemitism, and violence (leaving aside that it’s mostly been committed against them).
So who’s fault is it when Trump is elected and gives Israel everything they need to make the current genocide look like a schoolyard spat by comparison?
Your logic is a prime example of cutting your nose off to spite your face.
Biden’s. Folks have made it clear, delete Israel or we get Trump. They are litterally willing to blow themselves up, what makes you think they won’t elect Trump first.
You’re upset with Biden for not doing more to stop the genocide in Israel, so in response you’re going to elect someone who’s literally campaigning on “I’ll genocide harder!”?
It would be one thing if the Republican candidate were someone who was pro-Palestine. But this? This is like standing in front of the firing squad, and your last words being an objection not because you’re innocent, but because those carrying out your execution don’t have big enough guns.
No, it’s more like declaring that if they’re going to shoot me, I’ll convince them to shoot you next. You’re suddenly a lot more motivated to stop them shooting me aren’t you?
It’s the good ol, stop Israel now or we’re going to burn thos place down. And Biden should fucking listen to that.
Yet you understand the logic by Biden to not do the most obvious thing and stop supporting a genocide? Where is his urgency about US democracy? He has the power. Right now.
These people have a real reason to be angry and hold the Biden admin accountable, Biden does not have a justification for pushing ahead on his support of Israel. None.
Attempting to “hold Biden accountable” by supporting, advocating for, and voting for someone who has already gone on record as saying he wants to do even worse is probably not going to work out the way you think it will.
I understand the position that people are in. It’s pretty much Sophie’s Choice. Vote for Biden, who’s supporting an ally that is currently committing genocide, or vote for Trump, who says he’ll genocide harder. Or stay home and vote for nobody, and end up with Trump anyway. There’s no good options here. I get that.
Nobody wants to vote for a man who says “Vote for me and I’ll kill your wife”. But at the same time, the counter to that isn’t to advocate for the opponent who’s saying “Vote for me and I’ll kill your wife, your kids, and I’ll piss on your dog while I’m doing it.” I’m not saying I know what the best option is, but I know that Trump of all people certainly isn’t it and will just make the problem much worse.
Neither party is going to change in any real way, my only hope is that the GOP will rip itself apart and finally die the death it’s been fighting tooth and nail to delay, and then an actual left leaning party can arise in the FTTP system and the DNC can slide into the place of the more conservative of the two. At which point we can hopefully get ranked choice or star voting. A hilarious pipe dream I’m sure, and one that will take too long a time for anyone’s satisfaction. But it would take far less time for good things to happen that way that to fight out of a dictatorship, or rebuild after the country descends into civil war.
There won’t be time for the DNC to learn the lesson you want to teach them and then apply corrections, a second Trump term is a watershed moment for the future of the country, the world, and democracy. We won’t get a chance to try again in 4 years
100% I agree, I was just trying to spell out how we might still have some solid progress through them, I’m not one of the folks hesitant to vote for Biden. I don’t like him, the DNC, or that I have to do it but i understand the calculus, there’s no other option if you want to avoid catastrophe
Understood. And fundamentally I agree, it would be great if the DNC could live up to the role of opposing conservatives but we’ve got what we’ve got and trust me, we can make this worse…
Congress holds the power of the purse. If congress appropriates the money, the president is legally obligated to spend that money for the reason that it was appropriated. (It’s called impoundment of appropriated funds.) This is why Trump was impeached the first time; he tried to withhold funding from Ukraine–before Russia invaded–that had already been appropriated by congress unless he got personal quid pro quo from Zelensky. Trump did not have the legal authority to withhold that funding, and hence was impeached for corruption.
Similarly, Biden can’t withhold money appropriated for Israel. He can, at best, veto the appropriations bill, which would send it back to Congress to be overridden. (Given that it passed 79-21 in the Senate–I can find the House vote tallies at the moment–it is highly likely that his veto would be overridden.) Should he do it anyways? Sure. But it would be purely symbolic.
The only options Biden has are diplomatic, which he is exercising. He could arguably use the military to invade, but congress would pull him up short on that very fast. Could he do more diplomatically? Yes, definitely. Can he unilaterally stop Israel? Categorically no.
I still continue to fail to understand the logic these people are trying to use.
I completely understand the dissatisfaction with the Biden administration and his support for an ally who is currently committing genocide on the daily. And if there were a candidate who wasn’t a completely batshit wannabe dictator, I’d at least understand why they’d vote for anyone else over Biden, if not agree with it.
But this is not the case. What these people fail to understand because they’re literally blinded with rage is that the only other option is exponentially worse. Trump isn’t going to stop Israel from bombing Gaza into oblivion. He’s said as much. He basically wants to glass the entire area. Do these people not realize that what Trump wants to do is exponentially worse?
Voting for Trump because you don’t like Biden’s policies on Israel and Gaza isn’t shooting yourself in the foot. It’s shooting yourself in the foot, then reloading the shotgun when you realize you missed a few toes, then wondering why the hell your foot hurts and you’re bleeding all over the place.
I understand the rationale of “I cannot in good conscience vote for a man who has supported and partially funded a brutal genocide.” But at the same time, you’re advocating for a man who’s literally campaigning on “I’ll genocide harder!”. Why?
If you think Trump is, in any situation, a viable option for anything, please seek professional help immediately. There is never a situation where Donald Trump’s decisions or actions are ever going to make your life better. Full stop.
There are a few factors:
Not everyone in the Arab world looks favorably upon Palestine. They don’t care that Trump plans to escalate the genocide.
A lot of them are socially/fiscally conservative. Just because the Republicans lean overwhelmingly Christian doesn’t mean that their values differ entirely from Islam. Anyone who hates abortion, gay/trans people, and wants to keep drugs criminalized will be more inclined to vote Republican despite the widespread islamophobia.
The anti-Biden campaign, which is taking advantage of the Israel-Palestine conflict, has been successful at convincing voters, even if they are unwittingly voting against their own self-interest. The Republicans are good at that, such as how effectively they sway members of the working class towards supporting rich oligarchs and racial minorities to vote for racist candidates.
So if they either don’t care about Palestine or want to escalate the genocide, then why the hell do they care about Biden’s handling of the situation in the first place?
At best, they should be indifferent, no?
This is a classic example of voting against their own interests.
This is very true. If you can say one thing about the GOP, they’re specialists at getting the message out and convincing people to vote against their own interests.
You’re failing to understand because people are near-braindead levels of stupid. Democracy only works when the populous is generally well educated. We’ve been shooting ourselves in the foot in regards to education for a long time in this country that most people come out with the intelligence of a 5th grader, then say stupid things like “Trump is better than Biden”.
You’re playing politics. They’re responding to something they view as betrayal.
And what do they think is going to happen with Trump? A man who has already gone on record saying he’d do that and more?
Like I’ve repeatedly said, I understand and even support their point of view regarding Biden. But their only alternative is exponentially worse, and voting for Trump because you’re pissed off at Biden is a textbook example of cutting off your own nose to spite your face.
I legitimately don’t know how to handle these sorts of situations. I’ve learned that my methods don’t work on people with strong emotions on a subject without a 1 on 1 and some intoxicants.
I don’t believe this myself, but there is a not entirely ridiculous argument that when Democrats are doing the militarism against Arabs there’s no resistance at all, while when Republicans do it the Democrats (and aligned media) at least try to work against them. I don’t think that’s how it actually works out (I think the Democrats don’t really try and thus are completely ineffective), but I can see why a rational person could come to that belief.
Like take the protests right now vs. BLM. BLM wasn’t exactly a great performance by the Democrats, but there was at least some token support for the validity of their cause, but since Biden’s in power and the protests are in some part a criticism of him, everyone’s working overtime to discredit them and pretend like the only thing worth talking about it some smattering of antisemitism. There may be platitudes about having the “right to protest” while studiously avoiding referencing the reason they’re doing it, but most of the messaging is about outsider agitators, antisemitism, and violence (leaving aside that it’s mostly been committed against them).
The logic is simple. State matter of factly Bined must abandon Israel or lose to trump. Once declared, it’s Bidens fault if Trump is elected.
So who’s fault is it when Trump is elected and gives Israel everything they need to make the current genocide look like a schoolyard spat by comparison?
Your logic is a prime example of cutting your nose off to spite your face.
Biden’s. Folks have made it clear, delete Israel or we get Trump. They are litterally willing to blow themselves up, what makes you think they won’t elect Trump first.
Your rationale still makes zero sense.
You’re upset with Biden for not doing more to stop the genocide in Israel, so in response you’re going to elect someone who’s literally campaigning on “I’ll genocide harder!”?
It would be one thing if the Republican candidate were someone who was pro-Palestine. But this? This is like standing in front of the firing squad, and your last words being an objection not because you’re innocent, but because those carrying out your execution don’t have big enough guns.
No, it’s more like declaring that if they’re going to shoot me, I’ll convince them to shoot you next. You’re suddenly a lot more motivated to stop them shooting me aren’t you?
It’s the good ol, stop Israel now or we’re going to burn thos place down. And Biden should fucking listen to that.
Yet you understand the logic by Biden to not do the most obvious thing and stop supporting a genocide? Where is his urgency about US democracy? He has the power. Right now.
These people have a real reason to be angry and hold the Biden admin accountable, Biden does not have a justification for pushing ahead on his support of Israel. None.
Hey, nobody is arguing that Biden isn’t being a fucking idiot about Isreal… but in every way that Biden is bad Trump is worse.
these dumbfucks are going to put trump in power to ‘save palestine’ and ha-ha, project 2025 is going to end US democracy.
that’ll show 'em. fuck
So much this. It’s so stupid. But I guess they get the chance to be smug for a few months before donnie takes power and ends any discussions.
Or Biden could just change his course. He’s got plenty of time before the election.
Attempting to “hold Biden accountable” by supporting, advocating for, and voting for someone who has already gone on record as saying he wants to do even worse is probably not going to work out the way you think it will.
I understand the position that people are in. It’s pretty much Sophie’s Choice. Vote for Biden, who’s supporting an ally that is currently committing genocide, or vote for Trump, who says he’ll genocide harder. Or stay home and vote for nobody, and end up with Trump anyway. There’s no good options here. I get that.
Nobody wants to vote for a man who says “Vote for me and I’ll kill your wife”. But at the same time, the counter to that isn’t to advocate for the opponent who’s saying “Vote for me and I’ll kill your wife, your kids, and I’ll piss on your dog while I’m doing it.” I’m not saying I know what the best option is, but I know that Trump of all people certainly isn’t it and will just make the problem much worse.
Two questions:
Which party do you think has the capacity to change for the better?
What do you think would actually motivate that party to not persist in a genocidal direction?
Neither party is going to change in any real way, my only hope is that the GOP will rip itself apart and finally die the death it’s been fighting tooth and nail to delay, and then an actual left leaning party can arise in the FTTP system and the DNC can slide into the place of the more conservative of the two. At which point we can hopefully get ranked choice or star voting. A hilarious pipe dream I’m sure, and one that will take too long a time for anyone’s satisfaction. But it would take far less time for good things to happen that way that to fight out of a dictatorship, or rebuild after the country descends into civil war.
There won’t be time for the DNC to learn the lesson you want to teach them and then apply corrections, a second Trump term is a watershed moment for the future of the country, the world, and democracy. We won’t get a chance to try again in 4 years
with dems we actually get a future to vote and participate. with the GOP you’ll get project 2025, handmaiden’s tale and dystopia.
tough fucking choice
100% I agree, I was just trying to spell out how we might still have some solid progress through them, I’m not one of the folks hesitant to vote for Biden. I don’t like him, the DNC, or that I have to do it but i understand the calculus, there’s no other option if you want to avoid catastrophe
Understood. And fundamentally I agree, it would be great if the DNC could live up to the role of opposing conservatives but we’ve got what we’ve got and trust me, we can make this worse…
He doesn’t actually have that power directly, no.
Congress holds the power of the purse. If congress appropriates the money, the president is legally obligated to spend that money for the reason that it was appropriated. (It’s called impoundment of appropriated funds.) This is why Trump was impeached the first time; he tried to withhold funding from Ukraine–before Russia invaded–that had already been appropriated by congress unless he got personal quid pro quo from Zelensky. Trump did not have the legal authority to withhold that funding, and hence was impeached for corruption.
Similarly, Biden can’t withhold money appropriated for Israel. He can, at best, veto the appropriations bill, which would send it back to Congress to be overridden. (Given that it passed 79-21 in the Senate–I can find the House vote tallies at the moment–it is highly likely that his veto would be overridden.) Should he do it anyways? Sure. But it would be purely symbolic.
The only options Biden has are diplomatic, which he is exercising. He could arguably use the military to invade, but congress would pull him up short on that very fast. Could he do more diplomatically? Yes, definitely. Can he unilaterally stop Israel? Categorically no.