The problem is that with that line of thinking, just about nowhere on the planet has a right to exist.
No country or government has a “right” to exist. They’re given that ability to exist by the people they’re supposed to serve. If the system is not serving the people, it shouldn’t exist.
Supreme executive power is derived from a mandate from the masses, not some farcical electoral ceremony.
If I declared myself chancellor because a bunch of my friends voted for me they’d put me a way.
What if some watery tart threw a sword at you?
That depends. How watery are we talking?
Drenched.
The problem is, it’s a practical impossibility for the masses to mandate anything. There are way over 300 million people in the U.S. (for example), there is no practical way for a majority of them to mandate anything without going through channels put there by those in power which limit the scope of conversation as well as choices.
Anyone claiming a mandate from the people is really claiming successful control of oppressive systems.
Totally agree. Government starts getting worse the bigger a population it tries to govern.
But if I say “who wants pizza” and an entire kindergarten class says “Me!” then I’d call that a mandate from the masses.
Agreed. The United States is doing a piss-poor job serving the people, and while that may be due how the country was shaped during colonialism, it is not due to its ongoing colonialism. It’s a totally different situation than Israel.
For established states like the US, it’s more due to neocolonialism now
Now let’s talk about fiat currency vs crypto currency
you mean paper backed by the might of a whole country vs expensive and poluting scam coins?
Now you listen here! I may have lost part of my brain in a wolverine attack, but… I know one thing and one thing’s for sure, and that is the block chain is the future of currency. You think- oh, “fiat currency”? You th- what, “state backed dollars”? What could be better than a completely unaccountable system of absolute strangers and con artists, assembled together in a bizarre crypto fascist commune?
A world without borders sounds like a dream 😍
I was watching the falcon and winter soldier and I was thinking the flag smashers had a good point and were doing good for the world. They wanted no borders and no more nationalism. At one point they randomly had the flagsmashers kill some innocents to make them the antagonists
Propaganda is everywhere. Especially in super hero movies where they can remove ambiguity by writing actions that make bad guys unambiguously bad. They justify the heroes with these clear cut good and evil situations. Like in Batman when he kidnaps the guy from Hong Kong because Joker is making his points using grand displays that kill a bunch of people. Or in 24 when they carefully craft a situation where torture looks sensible (and maybe even pays off? It’s been a long time, I can’t remember if they show torture as a “justifiable” but ultimately useless act, or if they portray torture as an effective way of obtaining information when the tortured knows they only have to hold out for 24 hours).
The Boys does a better job with this by making the idea of heroes saving the day itself the villain and highlighting the corruption that would likely go along with such power and reputation.
Just finished watching “Death and other Details.” Same thing happened. Victor Sams did nothing wrong. 😑
Until someone walks into your home
This kind of argument is like those anti-communist arguments “would you want to have to share your iPod with strangers?”
Big government is coming to take your toothbrush
No one’s saying you shouldn’t have a safe place to sleep, and if they are then I would like to have a discussion with them
buddy it used to be absolutely standard for people to invite complete and utter strangers into their homes, offer them food and a place to sleep, and not expect any sort of payment beyond maybe them telling some stories and news.
maybe research the past before saying laughable things as if they’re some amazing “gotcha”
Big difference between nowhere and no state.
You’re beginning to get the point of anarchism.
No I’m not. Anarchism keeps getting stupider and less likely to ever be a workable solution to anything the more I look into it. It’s at best a nice thought experiment.
“Hey look at that disorganized group of people, I bet if we organized we could take them over”
It’s the state that has no right to exist, not the people or the place.
Now what is a state?
Look it up, but it’s basically a formalized group of people who believe themselves entitled to power and claim they can use violence to get their way and you are not allowed to defend yourself against it.
The state is a cultural pandemic, this is the real mind virus, our species existed for like 200,000 years in complex societies without the state, 500 years with ubiquitous state (look up enclosure acts that forced everyone into a state) is all it’s taken to destroy the entire planet.
Now you’re getting it
They have the “right” to exist but no mandate to exist. They’re allowed to exist and just as allowed to collapse and dissolve
How is that a problem?
Moreso it’s a contradiction in the original meme.
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Uh, no, just because whites can’t make a country without colonialism doesn’t mean there aren’t non-colonial countries. Iran, India, China and Egypt have had historical settlement for a good 5,000 years, their people are indigenous to the land. (Or have very close and long term migrations)
There are even indigenous populations in fucking Europe too, thinking of it
EDIT: For the 0 IQ blood and soil idiots in the comments, I’m referring to the indigenous people of these countries that have very long historical settlements
Iran, India, China and Egypt have had historical settlement for a good 5,000 years
I think that’s kind of a common misconception that occurs when you’re implementing ideas like race, nationality, or ethnicity to historical people who didn’t really know them or understand them in the same way.
In regards to China, are we talking about the ethnic han? Well they displaced and settled land from other Chinese ethnicities. If we’re just talking about the ethnicity held within a single nationality. Well, see there’s a place in China called Inner Mongolia…
In regards to Egypt, it’s not an ethnicity, it’s a nationality. You obviously have the ptolemeic dynasty, who were just some Greeks. You had the Persian dynasty for a while, then the nubian, then the meshwesh(Libyan), you even had the Hyksos who were proposed to be from the Levant. It’s all over the place.
My point being that the ancient world was more connected than most people originally think, and ethnicities tended not to stay in one place for thousands and thousands of years.
You may know better but continuing to use China as the example - weren’t they also repeatedly conquored and resettled by steppe people? Like, not only have they not had a 5000 year historic settlement but they have had as chaotic history of conquest and resettlement as just about anyone in history.
You may know better but continuing to use China as the example - weren’t they also repeatedly conquored and resettled by steppe people?
Eh, I guess it depends on who you consider to be Chinese, and what period of history you’re talking about?
For the most part the steppe people like the Turkic or the Mongolians did the majority of what we consider conquering in China in the 13th-14th century.
Before that they didn’t really comprise a large threat unless you are going much further back in history. If we are examining the Han dynasty, who shares a piece of history around the same time as the Romans, then yes. We don’t exactly have a bunch of primary sources, but we can tell a lot by the distribution of dna and language that they historically occupied large aspects of northern China, and are related to modern Manchu people’s, and those who hail from Manchu people like the modern Koreans.
Like, not only have they not had a 5000 year historic settlement but they have had as chaotic history of conquest and resettlement as just about anyone in history.
If we are speaking of the migration and conquest carried out by the Han, it’s not even really been hundreds. In the 19th century during the Taiping rebellion the Han started a civil war/genocide that killed around 30 million people. You get some pretty contextual quotes that kind of put into perspective the ethnic conflict native to China "“China is the China of the Chinese. We compatriots should identify ourselves with the China of the Han Chinese.”
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Except most of China was colonised by the Han people after the fall of Mongolia…
This is ahistorical. If the “fall of Mongolia” refers to the Yuan Dynasty, then the Han very obviously ruled China both prior and after that.
If that isn’t what you mean, then you really don’t know what you’re talking about
Something like that.
How long do you have to wait before it’s okay to live somewhere?
All those countries came about by conquering tribes. They were all empires at one time or another. China never stopped being an empire. Tibet & Taiwan would like a word with you…
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You think that having an indigenous population means that everything was sunshine and roses, and no group of humans was killing other groups of humans over that particular chunk of land? You might need to brush up on your history lessons.
You’re making a utilitarian argument that doesn’t account for the value of sovereignty.
Good job telling everyone you have no fucking idea what history is
Blisteringly stupid.
As an Australian I sometimes wonder what this place would be like if there hadn’t been genocide and institutional racism for 200 years.
Emu supremacy
What makes you think it isn’t already emu supremacy? Check the outcome of the emu war. They built bigger fences.
Due to the mineral wealth we don’t need to wonder much.
Australia… or whatever it would have been named, would have been a patchwork of dictatorships like we see in resource rich parts of Africa.
It’s actually really unusual that Australia didn’t end up that way.
Reporter: [REDACTED]
Reason: Fuck off with this racist, xenophobic shit.Apparently decolonization is xenophobic.
I recently got banned from [email protected] because I called out the moderator for crying about black people in God of War. The reason given? Racism, apparently, for telling the mod to stop being racist.
They deleted their account and locked the community, lol
Edit: to add on, a hexbear user saw that I got banned for “racism” after calling out the racist mod, and they also got banned, lmao. It’s really funny, the mod edited their post and pretended they were a victim for “being called a bigot for standing against DEI in video games.”
Such reactionary bullshit.
I mean, racism was technically the reason you got banned. Just not your racism lol
Yea, haha. I still genuinely cannot believe the level of contradiction in their edit.
For context :
Edit: Well it seems like people here don’t agree with me. OK. I’m locking this post now as the very thing that I said happens has happened. Right here. I was called a bigot for being against DEI. Calling people racists or bigots and/or claiming harassment when those people call You out and then screaming VICTIM is simply unacceptable
It’s actually absurd.
Oh good lord. Do people not hear themselves? “Im not racist guys! I’m just against diversity, equity, and inclusion!!!1!” Sir, how in the fuck is that not racist?
I know, right? They really thought they were cooking, like a gamer martyr.
being called a bigot for standing against DEI in video games.
I love this response because thats still being bigoted.
This logic is what got me, for a brief period in my teens, to identify as an antisemite, because I genuinely thought that was just the word for people who think genocide is fucked and ‘never again’ sounds like a pretty good guideline.
And I’m terrified how many other kids bought into the Zionist propaganda since, and how many of them are going to be less willing to admit they made an oopsie than my dumb ass was. I’m terrified how many people are going to be hurt by second order Zionist violence, all over the world. I think when they start attacking language, a nuclear response is warranted.
Look down at our planet from the heavens above
See it as it is, see it as it is.
No borders or banks. No wars or tanks.
No nations. No nations!
- “Fighting Song” by Outernational featuring Tom Morello
Counterpoint:
How beautiful is the north Korean sky? I bet it’s unmatched
I’ve never thought about that. It’s probably pretty good
Here, “nation states” does not refer to the actual landmass their borders engulf, but rather to the abstract concept of differentiating between human populations on the basis of laws that merely exist within our minds and areas of land based on virtual lines that equally only exist in our minds
It’s a nice thought, but it’s an “if everyone did X there wouldn’t be any problems” solution, which can be generally dismissed as useless. Here, “X” is “not care about any concept of nationality,” which is one of the biggest stretches I’ve ever seen this technique used for.
Ok, let me do the same thing you just did to show you that your argument doesn’t make any sense: Capitalism is a nice thought, but it’s an “if everyone did X there wouldn’t be any problems” solution, which can be generally dismissed as useless. Here, “X” is “simply let the markets regulate everything,” which is one of the biggest stretches I’ve ever seen this technique used for.
My point is, capitalism means way more than that. Everyone who claims that capitalism merely means “let the markets decide” obviously does not know what capitalism is. Same applies to anarchism.
Capitalism is a nice thought, but it’s an “if everyone did X there wouldn’t be any problems” solution, which can be generally dismissed as useless.
I mean… yeah, that’s exactly what capitalism is. The people who dpn’t want to do X (X = free markets) want to regulate them, which is like, anyone who supports labor laws, anti-monopoly regulations, etc. Socialists, basically; precisely because everyone doesn’t believe in capitalism.
The only difference is that more people are willing to believe in free markets than in total deregulation, so a capitalistic society is a more likely / stable philosophy than an anarchic one.
You still seem to think that “anarchism” means total abolition of rules and order, but that is simply not what it means. This confusion with what it’s actually called, anomia, is so common, that Wikipedia even mentions this right in the beginning of their respective articles
If there’s that much confusion, how are you so sure your definition is correct?
But, I’m interested. What is the real definition that you use?
what exactly is your point? the fact that korea suffers inhumane sanctions imposed by the us empire with the goal of punishing the korean people for resisting their imperialism?
I think it was meant to be a light-hearted joke.
What the fuck are you talking about. NK’s biggest allies have always been the second-biggest economy in the world, first the USSR, now the PRC.
They’re poor af because their “allies” prefer it that way
wrong. back when the ussr was still a thing the dprk had a pace of development matching, or in parts even exceeding that of the south, and that even with only minimal soviet assistance post 1965, as korea stayed neutral in the sino-soviet split.
the prc on the other hand not only complies with the sanctions that were unjustly imposed on the dprk, but was instrumental in bringing them about in the first place. the reason for this is that china, since dengs betrayal of socialism, tries to integrate with the western dominated world market, something an extremely belligerent anti western dprk is not useful for. this is why the dprk currently tries to develop ties with bourgeois russia, as they are at least somewhat serious about fighting the west.
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Go suck dictator dick somewhere else, scum
'cept most sane borders are based upon geography
I’ll have to remind the French and British settlers that died hundreds of years ago to knock it off the next time I see them.
Dig up their bones and send them to the British Museum
Sure, we didn’t invade these countries but we maintain the colonial power structures and continue to benefit from colonisation as indigenous people continue to be dispossessed. It’s easy and convenient to point your finger at the past and say thats where all the responsibility lies
I mean, depends on your definition of invasion. I have no problem calling British and French colonization of North America “invasion” but my main point is, Israel is actively doing it right now and all of the other countries listed did it hundreds of years ago where we can’t reach them.
Ah, when I said “we didn’t invade”, I mean us personally. Our forefathers certainly did invade.
Stealing is not okay as soon as you give the stolen item to your kid. It should still be returned.
China give back Tibet, when?
Yeah but is the kid to blame?
Answer: no, but the kid should recognize inequity and help correct it anyway.
Blame is irrelevant, the kid needs to give back the stolen items.
I can’t help but think your framing is a little off. It’s more like someone stole the item, then gave it to their kids, who gave it to their kids, who gave it to their kids, who gave it to their kids, who sold it to someone else, who gave it to their kids. And then asking those kids to give up the item (in this case their property and home?).
So all you need to do to get away with theft is wait and move it around a bunch after the initial theft? And the rightful owner loses their right to it?
Like I feel like your perspective sounds nice and empathetic for about three seconds, then you realize you’re advocating another ethnic cleansing in response to ethnic cleansing. Or not, I guess it’s possible to think ethnic cleansing is good.
No, of course not, don’t change the context of the situation to make a point. That’s really immature.
I haven’t stolen anything is my point. My ancestors moved to USA in the early 1900s, long after the colonization was complete. Am I supposed to give up my property because someone who died 400 years ago was oppressed? I had nothing to do with that, I was just born here.
Are you willing to give up YOUR home if asked? I suspect not, but you didn’t come to be there without violence either, right?
So what you’re saying is that it’s okay to take back the food stolen by a homeless man desperate to feed his kids, right? And if they’ve already eaten, it’s okay to take a scalpel to their stomach to retrieve it.
Hypocrisy isn’t excusable.
Sure, no state has a right to exist. Rights don’t really exist either, for that matter. The issue with Israel isn’t just being a colonist state, though. NZ is a colonial state. Awful things happened and continue to happen due to NZ colonisation. There is a pretty stark difference between race relations in NZ and Israel, however. When people rail against Israel it isn’t solely on the basis of colonisation
Get outta here with this false equivalence. The marginal human suffering inflicted per year caused by Israeli’s colonialism is incomparably greater than any other country’s in the modern era.
The US pays Israel to cause suffering
Okay granted. From this perspective, sure, American colonialism is strictly broader than Israel’s. I don’t think this really changes anything about what I’m saying here.
I mean the only reason you’re technically correct is cause you limited the scope to just the last year. Just cause Israel did it the most recently doesn’t make them incomparable.
Even the year before that, it’s still true. Well, depending on what “incomparable” means lol
China says hi.
Remember when Apple.moved to India and tried to use the same conditions as their Non-Slave Chinese factories?
Remember when the Indian workers rioted over that?
Edit: fucking Google. Doesn’t correct Infia to India, but automatically changes rioted to rooted.
Can you post a link to that Apple story? I’d like to educate myself on it
That’s globalization, not colonialism. That’s a completely different reason to want to see western powers annihilated.
Try again. It was a longtime subsidiary based out of Taiwan that was shifting from Chinese labour to Indian labour.
I think I’m too stupid to understand what you mean.
Wasn’t a western entity involved outside of Apple paying a Taiwanese firm, which itself was paying a Chinese firm which was responsible.
Just because it isn’t overtly genocidal(anymore) doesnt mean the US hasnt done incredible harm to the entire world. What israel is doing right now if horrific yes but the US is responsible for even greater suffering. Neither should exist
Really? The data says otherwise. Under american hegemony birth rates are up, life expectancy is up, infant mortality is down, and poverty has fallen across the entire world. Bitch and moan all you want but america has had a massive impact on improving thr world.
I want you to go to an iraqi and tell them that american intervention benefitted them and their nation. Say that to a cambodian, vietnamese, nicaraguan, chilean, cuban, north korean, venezuelan, haitian, balkan, etc. the list goes on. You haven’t had a truly experienced the third world if you havent sat around a fire with sunflower seeds and grumbled about america. When i say that america is worse than israel i am referring to the purposeful bombings of civilians, hospitals, industrial infrastructure, and schools; I am referring to the overthrowing of democratically elected governments, the funding of fascist death squads, and the illegal and immoral sanctions meant to destabilize foreign powers all in the name of profit. Humanitarian aid is meaningless if you are the reason its necessary
You complain about America yet America contains China and their genocidal Muslim death squads. You bemoan American intervention yet that intervention keeps energy prices stable saving millions of lives getting food dependant on that. You curse America even though it keeps murdering dictators at bay. America has used its power and navy to keep the seas open and trade flowing. You talk about the third world while you sit around a coal fire under provided by the trade America’ protects. Is America perfect? Absolutely not. But it can be much, much worse. If not America, then who? Look how China has been behaving in Africa. Russia seems very reasonable and understanding. America helped end colonialism. Also, thank goodness for America eradicating disease around the world. America led the way eradicating aids, guinea worm, polio, small pox, measles, and TB.
If you’re going to lob criticism, you need to acknowledge the whole. Global population says American efforts have been a resounding success. A simple thank you would be nice.
You’re either a troll or your brain is so rotten that you may as well cut off your head, as it’s doing nothing
Thanks for the ad hominem attack. I’m sorry the facts are against your opinion.
And I am sorry your family had to deal with your existence
You complain about America yet America contains China and their genocidal Muslim death squads.
The US’s “Uyghur genocide” disinformation campaign has already been debunked several times over.
- The Xinjiang Genocide Allegations Are Unjustified
- The Uyghur Human Rights Project is a product of the National Endowment for Democracy, which is the American government’s main regime change NGO.
- Uyghur genocide allegations
- US-Funded Uyghur Activists Train as Soldiers of Empire
- A Reddit AMA Claiming To Be A Uyghur Quickly Exposes A CIA Asset Slandering China
- The blueprint of regime change operations
We see here for example the evolution of public opinion in regards to China. In 2019, the ‘Uyghur genocide’ was broken by the media (Buzzfeed, of all outlets). In this story, we saw the machine I described up until now move in real time. Suddenly, newspapers, TV, websites were all flooded with stories about the ‘genocide’, all day, every day. People whom we’d never heard of before were brought in as experts — Adrian Zenz, to name just one; a man who does not even speak a word of Chinese.
Organizations were suddenly becoming very active and important. The World Uyghur Congress, a very serious-sounding NGO, is actually an NED Front operating out of Germany […]. From their official website, they declare themselves to be the sole legitimate representative of all Uyghurs — presumably not having asked Uyghurs in Xinjiang what they thought about that.
The WUC also has ties to the Grey Wolves, a fascist paramilitary group in Turkey, through the father of their founder, Isa Yusuf Alptekin.
Documents came out from NGOs to further legitimize the media reporting. This is how a report from the very professional-sounding China Human Rights Defenders (CHRD) came to exist. They claimed ‘up to 1.3 million’ Uyghurs were imprisoned in camps. What they didn’t say was how they got this number: they interviewed a total of 10 people from rural Xinjiang and asked them to estimate how many people might have been taken away. They then extrapolated the guesstimates they got and arrived at the 1.3 million figure.
Sanctions were enacted against China — Xinjiang cotton for example had trouble finding buyers after Western companies were pressured into boycotting it. Instead of helping fight against the purported genocide, this act actually made life more difficult for the people of Xinjiang who depend on this trade for their livelihood (as we all do depend on our skills to make a livelihood).
Any attempt China made to defend itself was met with more suspicion. They invited a UN delegation which was blocked by the US. The delegation eventually made it there, but three years later. The Arab League also visited Xinjiang and actually commended China on their policies — aimed at reducing terrorism through education and social integration, not through bombing like we tend to do in the West.
Look how China has been behaving in Africa.
Yeah, it’s investing in Africa’s infrastructure, as opposed to exfiltrating its resources like the Global North neocolonialists.
During this time of hegemony we’ve also had major developments in medicine, farming, manufacturing worldwide. How can you say the world is better off with US hegemony? There is no control to compare it to. Humanity has improved materially in the last 100 years, in SPITE of American dominance. I would ask the thousands of people killed every year by US munitions if they believe the world has been improved.
America had a hand in all of that and help the world grow. You complain about american munitions but there has not been large state on state conflicts since ww2. There have been regional wars but nothing like ww1 and ww2. Hundreds of millions die in world wars. Thousands that die due to conflict are a miracle given human history.
You do realize most of the planet hates 'murica, yeah?
I do and it is completely unjustified.
Maybe stop being a brainwashed useful idiot? That should help.
Sorry for all the global prosperity and disease elimination. I guess the world hates that.
Grow a brain, muritard. The US has destroyed any and all governments that could pose an issue to your economic hegemony. All you bring is death and chaos.
Bingo.
You might think that no country has any right to exist but that belief wont protect you from someone who thinks their country should control the entire world.
Nationalism is a basic and maybe outdated mechanism that protects against foreign invasions. You need to understand its purpose and function if you want to abolish it. At some point, i think everyone would agree that some populations share certain moral values and priorities. And those values deserve to be defended.
You can call those values “Germany” or “EU” or “Europe” or “lemmy” or “lgbtq people of earth and nearby planets”, but in the end you will have an entity that encapsulates values that are worth being defended. I dont give a fuck about my country and i wish daily that somehow it gets nuked out of existence. But fuck anyone who wants to take it over by force.
Why is all this important? We are entering an age where information warfare is crucial. If an entity can shield its population from enemy informational warfare(great firewall of China) while being free to use informational warfare against its enemies(tik tok or any social media), then you(in the West) will just become a useful idiot.
The enemy is trying to persuade that a thing is bad(countries/nationalism), while at the same time is preaching how great that same thing is on his own population. When the shit hits the fan, which side do you think will win? The one who thinks that nations are bullshit and no war is justified, or the country which thinks that its nation is the greatest and war is a moral necessity in order to “liberate” the rest of the world?
This is nothing new. Japanese imperialism was disguised as anti-western/anti-imperialistic. Japan was the sign that asian people can be equal/superior to europeans and they just wanted to spread their values and liberate other asian nations from the european/american shackles. You dont need to be a historian to realize how utterly bullshit this lie was. The germans did the same with the whole “honorary aryan” thing.
TLDR : Ask yourself, if you apply your belief, will the rest of the world follow? If not, who benefits from you applying your beliefs? Sometimes it is fine to have noble beliefs and realizing that they arent realistically applicable to the current world.
Does anybody know when is gonna change Netanyahu the national anthem to “Israel uber alles”?
That’s not what the numbers say.
But sadly we live in reality and have to accept that talking about how the israeli people have just the same right to live as the palestinians is way more effective than outright demanding the abolishment of all nation states, a thing that, even if ever, is only going to become even fathomable to most humans in at least a few centuries
#thathappened
it’s such a pleasant feeling having these “spells” break in your head. they shatter to the floor when you realize a state “not having a right to exist” makes no fucking sense to begin with.
Money and nations are as real as ghosts and gods
Excuse me while I go to your store and buy your choicest items with make-believe hand shadows art money.
Hey man, if you can get enough people to believe in your art money it’ll become real, too.
I mean sure, no country technically has an inherent right to exist. But the difference is in the details. The US, Canada, etc, simply don’t have that inherent right. Israel, in addition to that, only exists because of pity to a bunch of whiners and a (in retrospective bad) decision of everyone else to throw them a bone.
And pity that was displaced, it was founded by Nazi collaborators, not Holocaust victims!
