please read some parenti
Something tells me Karl Marx wouldn’t like these things either.
vaushites pulling shit out of their ass instance 9001
These westerners are social democrats which is not hard to understand, it’s wiki entry away.
It’s infuriating considering that it’s in the first goddamn sentence: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism
Socialism is an economic and political philosophy encompassing diverse economic and social systems characterised by social ownership of the means of production, as opposed to private ownership.
If those libs could read they’d be very upset.
Man im pretty socialist who lives in ex east germany with my parents actually being parz of that time and i gotta tell you, with what i hear from them, it was horrible
ahhh yes… horrible as in:
- guaranteed housing and employment
- a non-discriminatory education system
- 0% unemployment
- low taxes
- an actually functional railway network
- a highly developed health care system that didn’t discriminate on basis of class
- guaranteed childcare
- womens rights way more advanced than in western germany at the time
- and most importantly no fascists in government
and no, i dont wanna say that there were no deficiencies, but it is rather obvious to me that it was quite the opposite of “horrible”!
also, what the hell do you mean by “pretty socialist”?
Ah yes the oh so good DDR with exciting features such as
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no freedom of movement
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constant shortage of any goods
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being a dictatorship
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(contrary to your first point) a housing shortage
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a culture so dictated by work that people had little to no free time
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political pressure
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control over the media
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the fucking stasi
And what i mean by pretty socialist is: everyone gets equal opportunities no matter what race, religion, gender, political views, etc. I want that chad - who just lost all his belongings - has the same chance to live a fulfilled live as elon musk has. I abhorr the fact that there are billionaire’s or even just millionaire’s while other people have to choose between paying rent or eating, and those people not even being in the worst situation compared to others.
I want almost, but not completely, communism
im sorry but you seem to have been fed quite a few western myths about the gdr. you seem to be arguing in good faith though, so lets examine:
no freedom of movement
this is just plain wrong. tourism was possible and encouraged not only within the country, but also to fellow socialist states like czechoslovakia and hungary, as well as, albeit to a lesser extent the soviet union. such trips were enjoyed by virtually the entire population thanks to guaranteed vacation time.
constant shortage of goods
shortages were only a thing in the immediate aftermath of ww2, as well as during the 1980s. in the second case they were caused by the economic liberalization enacted at the time due to western pressure, as well as the general deterioration of conditions in the eastern block at the time, which happened for similar reasons. during the late 60s and 70s per capita consumption was more or less equal to the west.
being a dictatorship
every state is necessarily a dictatorship, as this is important for class preservation. just as liberal states will mercilessly crush revolutionary elements, so must socialist societies crush counterrevolutionary ones. please read engels on authority to understand this point better. it is a short read and very eye opening.
a housing shortage
any source on this claim? the only periods i can imagine this to be the case is in the beginning due to war era destruction and the end due to crisis.
a culture so dictated by work that people had little to no free time
this is in fact a valid point. a solution for this could have been found within the socialist system though.
political pressure
already answered previously in the point about “dictatorship”.
control over the media
“All over the world, wherever there are capitalists, freedom of the press means freedom to buy up newspapers, to buy writers, to bribe, buy and fake “public opinion” for the benefit of the bourgeoisie.”
– v. i. lenin
the fucking stasi
the mfs was necessary due to the constant threat of counterrevolution going out from west germany. but its reach and capabilities are much overblown in western propaganda nowadays. in fact, the east spent much less on its intelligence apparatus than the frg while still managing to have a lower crime rate.
the goals you stated are extremely noble and i do in fact agree with every single one of them. you are being idealist though, which means that you absolutely need to read theory, especially lenin. a good reading list can be found here. if you would educate yourself properly you could become a great contribution to the communist movement.
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why are reactionaries always assuming that their opponents are children? only because you are a teenager living within the imperial core, consuming nothing but nato propaganda, you shouldnt assume that everyone else is an equivalent.
No. it’s just an immature position
in order to appreciate socialism, one must have studied capitalism. yet you liberals are so smug, having studied neither.
in order to appreciate socialism, one must have studied capitalism. yet you liberals are so smug, having studied neither.
Or maybe we studied both and appreciate neither. Maybe you’re too smug to realize not everyone here is a liberal, maybe you’re too smug to stop making stupid assumptions of people’s position and trying to weaponize it to attack people’s character. We get it, you hate liberals, move on. (⌐■-■)
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Grayjay
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Wow. I would love to here from the mods how my comment was breaking the rules of a memes community.
What’s wrong with the DPRK? The only source that life there is terrible are defector’s testimonies, which contradict each other on a daily basis and where the worst, most emotional stories are rewarded with fame and money. Often it’s the only way to make ends meats for them. If you come to the south from the north you are a nobody.
Furthermore, the DPRK has never threatened anyone. They have a 100% literacy rate (literally on the CIA website) and every citizen is guaranteed free healthcare, free education and a place to live. They use all of their arible land for food production but because of the sanctions and their mountainous terrain sometimes they have scarcities, but no one is starving. Their constitution is full of human and political rights and social gurantees.
And to proof that I don’t shill for any country calling itself socialist, I don’t like China at all (while still thinking that they are at least better for the world than the US).
And of course there are things to criticize the DPRK for, like the lack of LGBT rights and their weapons exports and hackergroups. But considering the sanctions (that even China upholds) they are in very dier need of foreign currency.
I would also encourage everybody to study the history of Korea.
The only source that life there is terrible are defector’s testimonies, which contradict each other on a daily basis and where the worst, most emotional stories are rewarded with fame and money.
There are other sources.
For example:
They turn most of their lights off at night to preserve power. They don’t really have energy resources themselves and it is very difficult for them to get foreign currencies. They are still a poor country but considering that they are the most sanctioned country in the history of sanctions they are doing about at well as they can.
That might be their real problem. I mean, everywhere else on the planet, the value of menial labor greatly exceeds the cost of the lighting a human needs to be able to work. If they are, indeed, only providing lighting during daylight hours, they are only utilizing 1/3 to 1/2 of the industrial capacity they have invested in. They bought a tractor plant, but because they won’t turn on the lights, it’s production is far short of its capacity.
For want of a lightbulb, the production was lost. For want of production, farming equipment was lost. For want of farming equipment, the harvest was lost. For want of a harvest, the people were lost.
If the value of electricity to run a lightbulb so greatly exceeds the value of human labor, I would expect that they would have human powered generators to convert low-value human labor into high-value lighting, so that other laborers would have the light they need to produce.
First, factory lights only account for a small fraction of the power consumed and second people sleep at night. And third, it doesn’t matter what the electricity costs if you don’t have enough coal/oil/gas.
The DPRK has no shortage of coal. It’s one of their export products. They currently produce 35 million tons a year, and only burn 10 million.
While not commonly used in the rest of the world due to abundant oil and gas supplies, coal liquefaction and gasification are relatively simple and proven technologies. Having coal provides a (somewhat dirty) source of gas and liquid fuels, if utilized for that purpose.
Apparently, electricity is considerably more valuable in DPRK than the opportunity cost of shutting down the entire country overnight. I would think that the factories producing tractors and equipment for converting non-arable land into cropland would be a sufficiently high enough priority to justify burning some excess coal, but apparently not.
Their average height is much lower than people from South Korea. The most likely cause is malnutrition. When malnutrition affects even the military, your civilians aren’t doing well.
If you’re looking for sources, there are plenty of links should you search for “north korean vs south korean height”. The difference is pretty dramatic for 75 years of isolation.
thank you, comrade!
one thing i might add is the fact that most if not all of the propagated lies about the dprk are projection. sexual slavery was a thing the american occupation forces engaged in massively and south korean dictator pak chong-hui was killed during a dinner party with a underage concubine present. later, haircut policing was a thing in the south during the 1980s under chon tu-hwan. the most prominent korean defector, pak yon-mi is a white supremacist btw.
i believe that the whole hacking thing is massively exaggerated by western media as part of their whole “the enemy is both weak and strong”-strategy. it is both a way to engineer further fear mongering against korea, as well as to mask their own incompetence. but even if im wrong and they are indeed from the dprk, i still find them quite based and funny tbh.
do you happen to have any resources on the lgbt situation within the county? i would love to educate myself on the topic.
i also slightly disagree with you on china. they never seized being a socialist state, but have sadly become revisionist since deng. that doesnt make them any less worthy of critical support though.
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hey, idk why you got removed, you were talking about an interesting topic.
i obviously didnt watch the stream, since i dont have so much free time on my hands, but having read the comments i believe to have more or less gotten the gist of what they are saying. its the usual talking points.
this old r/genzedong thread does imho a great job on providing evidence that china does in fact not fit lenins criteria for a imperialist nation, even if one were to assume that it has a capitalist economy. (cw coarse language though)
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I fear I gotta move to a different instance. I’m also a lefty but gawd damn I will never try to justify the stuff some dudes on this instance do.
There’s a spectre haunting Sailing7
Same
your point?
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i originally wanted to point out how ironic it is that a .world user wants to talk about site culture, but considering that you arent even capable of writing the word lemmy, its probably pointless.
You’re doing great, keep it going.
Его поинт в том что социализм это не только исковерканный марксистско-ленинистский брэйн рот жёстко социально репрессивных стран как бест корея, полно и анархистов и соц демократов которые так же зовут себя социалистами но они не будут симпить за Ким Чин Ина, лол
Translated :
“His point is that socialism is not only a distorted Marxist-Leninist brain of harshly socially repressive countries like the best Korea, full of anarchists and social democrats who also call themselves socialists, but they will not sympathize with Kim Jong-Un, lol”
Not bad, where it says “brain” I wrote cyrillic-ized (like the opposite of latinization) “brain rot” and “sympathize” was originally the same thing for the word “simping” and instead of “full” I said “there are plenty of”, but the sentence structure would not translate well. “KIM Jin-In” is meant to be Kim Jong Un, but idk why his name is spelled and said so differently in Russian (afaik, anyway).
во-первых, социал-демократы ни в коем случае не являются социалистами, они обычно даже не претендуют на это. их истинная лояльность была достаточно продемонстрирована тем фактом, что меньшевики встали на сторону белых, а германский спд приказал фрайкорпусу (будущему ss) убивать спартакистов. анархисты, с другой стороны, представляют собой большую группу различных типов людей, из которых только часть претендует на социализм (синдикалисты, анкомы итд).
однако все это не имеет никакого значения, поскольку эти группы никогда не смогли добиться ни хрена. все их начинания провалились весьма плачевно, например, в испании. в отличие от мл, которые действительно смогли улучшить жизнь людей, поскольку они понимали, что репрессивные меры абсолютно необходимы для выживания государства. просто посмотри, как быстро соцблок превратился в абсолютно дерьмовую ситуацию, в которой мы находимся сегодня, после того как горби сделал то, что он сделал.
о кндр достаточно хорошо известно, что ложь, распространяемая западными сми, в основном является лишь проекцией того, что исторически делалось в оккупированной южной корее. почитай на эту тему книгу “патриоты, предатели и империи” стивена гованса. даже если ты все равно хочешь быть против северокорейского правительства, именно в этом и заключается критическая часть критической поддержки.
Это делюжон жёсткий, даже базовые факты не правильны, не только в соц блоке и так уже все убого было, но и то что социалистические государства с их жёсткими репрессиями ради выживания государства (оч по Марксу, ахуенно прям) улучшили жизнь это очень спорно, и в Украине и в Испании анархисты добились намного более конкретного прогресса в плане строения социализма и коллективизации чем СССР не говоря уж там про ДПРК.
Меншьивики с белыми просто сделали альянс из того что у них не было даже шанса против большевиков без этого, по этой логике я могу про молотов-риббентроп так же говорить что из этого следует то что Сталин и Гитлер идеологически сходились.
Соц дем не обязательно имеет ввиду нородскую модель, и абсолютно так же социализм.
Я не говорю что в совке всем совсем всегда было плохо, и более того я все равно топю за революцию так как в империи жизнь была ещё хуже, но с того что я вижу (хоть я и не особо начитана а этом плане, спс за рекомендацию) тут намного более поддержки чем критики.
Edit: I do love how even though we’re on opposite sides of this discussion we are both downvoted for speaking Russian. Lol. Lmao even.
Translated :
“ This is a harsh delusion, even the basic facts are not correct, not only in the social bloc everything was already miserable, but also the fact that the socialist states with their harsh repressions for the sake of the survival of the state (very much according to Marx, really awesome) have improved life is very debatable, and in Ukraine and Spain, anarchists have achieved much more concrete progress in terms of building socialism and collectivization than the USSR, not to mention the DPRC.
The Menshiviks and the Whites simply made an alliance out of the fact that they didn’t even have a chance against the Bolsheviks without this, by this logic I can also say about Molotov-Ribbentrop that it follows from this that Stalin and Hitler agreed ideologically.
Social dem does not necessarily mean the Nordic model, and absolutely so does socialism.
I’m not saying that everything in the Soviet Union was always completely bad, and moreover, I still root for the revolution since life was even worse in the empire, but from what I see (even though I’m not particularly well-read in this regard, thank you for the recommendation ) there is much more support than criticism here.
Edit: I do love how even though we’re on opposite sides of this discussion we are both downvoted for speaking Russian. Lol. Lmao even.“
Translated :
“ Firstly, social democrats are by no means socialists; they usually do not even pretend to be so. their true loyalty was sufficiently demonstrated by the fact that the Mensheviks sided with the Whites, and the German Spd ordered the Freikorps (the future SS) to kill the Spartacists. anarchists, on the other hand, represent a large group of different types of people, of which only a part claims socialism (syndicalists, ancoms, etc.).
however, none of this matters because these groups have never been able to achieve a damn thing. all their endeavors failed quite disastrously, for example, in Spain. unlike the MLs, who were actually able to improve people’s lives because they understood that repressive measures were absolutely necessary for the survival of the state. just look at how quickly social block turned into the absolutely shitty situation we are in today after Gorby did what he did.
It is quite well known about the DPRK that the lies spread by the Western media are mainly just a projection of what was historically done in occupied South Korea. Read the book “Patriots, Traitors and Empires” by Stephen Gowans on this topic. even if you still want to be against the North Korean government, that’s the critical part of critical support."”
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Ah right, we are in the meme community. Carry on.
I just hate murderous regimes that murder millions of their own people
FTFY
Average imperial core Cold Warrior understander.
The US is included in my list too with the Native American genocide for what its worth lol. But people tend to forget that Soviet Russia and Communist China killed millions of their own people. They should not be praised or imitated. We should learn from the horrible mistakes of the past.
By millions murdered, you don’t mean people who died in the last famine in China after centuries of famines, and you don’t mean the last famine in the region that became the USSR after centuries of famines, right? Famines that happened during or soon after the bloody revolutions overthrowing the tsars and emperors, under which the previous famines occurred?
I mean in the boxer revolution and the millions that died in gulags in USSR because of famine and the government selecting people at random to starve to death in labor camps.
The boxer rebellion was 50 years before the Chinese Communist Revolution. The CIA’s own unclassified reports show what people in gulags were fed. Why would they choose people at random? That would be dumb. Nazis, kulaks, other prisoners of the revolutionary war, and common criminals were in gulags.
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Bruh, they literally picked people from bread lines and threw them into the gulag.
[citation needed]
Do you even think critically about the cold war propaganda we were fed? Why would you pick people out of bread lines and put them into gulags to feed them there? That would mean you’d have to build more gulags and get people to staff them. Why would you do that unless you’re a cartoon villain? It makes no sense.Not to mention the majority of clergy for just being christian clergy.
I have no great love for clergy, especially when they side with tsars against a worker revolution.
Lemme just unload very blurry memories of junior high school class and add numbers with “millions”, that sounds like enough work to not give 1 minute of my time to actually know anything about the USSR or China
Why don’t you read up on the USSR and read peoples actual experiences with it. Yeah there weren’t millions in the boxer revolution, but tbh the forced abortion 2 kid thing probably puts them into millions category
… And? A lot of socialists are also libertarian in equal measure.
libertarian “socialists” are a deeply idealist tendency that didnt manage to get anything done ever. the only thing they do is criticize actually existing socialist projects, mostly using state department talking points. the concept of critical support is unknown to them and the only revolutions they like are the ones that fail. they are puppets in the hands of the cia.
It’s not very enlightened to call entire movements like libertarian socialism (AKA anarchism) just idealist, ineffectual, and to imply they’re essentially brainwashed by the US government.
Anti-state movements have a history as long and storied as socialism, and theoretical frameworks for their beliefs far more complex than you give them credit for.
yeah the state department point was probably a little harsh and generalizing of me, though i am indeed quite pissed how reactionaries like vaush or keffals are appropriating leftist aesthetics in order to shill for us imperialism. i am also standing with my statement about ancoms & co not getting anything done, sorry.
though i am indeed quite pissed how reactionaries like vaush or keffals are appropriating leftist aesthetics in order to shill for us imperialism
Most terminally online thing I’ve ever heard.
Ancoms have definitely gotten shit done, you just sound salty tbh
what exactly?
https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/peter-gelderloos-anarchy-works
A detailed summary of successful anarchist organisation throughout history.
Anarchist Spain and the Makhnovhscina as short lived as they were were closer to even Marxist communism than any of those authoritarian shitholes
I kinda suspect ты из Калининграда
виновен
Is it so much to ask that workers councils be in charge instead of some revolutionary
The history of socialist movements shows that it is. Rosa Luxemburg was right over a hundred years ago.
Apparently so!
There’s no contradiction there.
lemmy.world
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The healthcare system is just fraud anyway just finish the job and make it for everyone not the ultra rich.
You know, I thought that, with Lemmy being less popular than Reddit, there would be less political propaganda messaging on here
But it seems I’m mistaken
Lemmy is less popular and therefore more niche, meaning you’ll get smaller communities with stronger opinions, and therefore way more political extremism
what do you mean? the lack of cia talking points here is really refreshing imho. on reddit everything is drowned in a sea of “communism bad”-bots.
This is not propaganda what do you mean? It’s literally citing socialist states
Btw Lemmy is communist, created by Dessalines, first instance is literally lemmy.ml for Marxism-Leninism
Uh, your ideas about where you’d find socialism are a bit backwards
I said nothing about socialism
I said “political propaganda messaging”, of which i find annoying even if they support my political views
I straight up don’t believe you.
It’s only like two guys that have been doing this for the last week, and I have no idea what their game is. Lemmy doesn’t have enough people for the propaganda to make a meaningful difference, even if everyone did buy into it. Are they stupid?
yes
