- cross-posted to:
- nottheonion
- politics_no_um
- cross-posted to:
- nottheonion
- politics_no_um
“He’s doing a good job,” Trump saidabout the Israeli leader. “Biden is trying to hold him back, just so you understand, Biden is more superior to the VP. He’s trying to hold him back, and he probably should be doing the opposite, actually. I’m glad that Netanyahu decided to do what he had to do, but it’s moving along pretty good.”
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If you are an American voter and you sit this one out or vote 3rd party and Trump gets in you are directly supporting escalation and taking whatever little restraint away that Netanyahu is feeling from the USA.
Instead of calls for restraint you will have cheerleading from the sidelines.
C’mon enlightened lefties! Come on and tell me how you won’t be voting for genocide and we should follow so the Democrats figure out through losing the election that they should court lefties. Nevermind we get 4 years of, “he’s doing a good job” as long as Democrats learn to denounce genocide.
C’mon you fucking cowards, get in here and sell me on how Trump winning helps solve your single issue voting on genocide.
I’m voting for Harris. She shouldn’t be supporting genocide and neither should you.
Absolutely no disagreement there. I don’t condone genocide, and think we should do something about it but I’m not foolish enough to think not voting for the lesser of two evils accomplishes this. We are in agreement.
Nor am I. Unfortunately, there are plenty of people on lemmy who are so pro-genocide that they cannot abide any criticism of it, no matter how mild. These people immediately assume that anyone who has any misgivings at all about Democrats supporting Netanyahu’s genocide must be a trump supporter.
I’m looking forward to October 21, when early voting opens in Texas, so I can vote for Harris. That doesn’t mean I must remain silent about genocide.
This is ignorant as fuck. First of all, there is no more reliable group of voters in the country than progressives. Not even MAGA members have shown up at polls as reliably for Republicans as the left has for Democrats. Still, the Democratic establishment whines about leftists staying home to excuse their pathetic losses, and morons eat it up.
Also, even if there were any kind of truth to this narrative, trying to win an election by shaming voters is dumb as fuck. No voter who is as fickle as you think the left is, is going to decide to show up because you shouted insults at them. This isn’t a strategy to win elections, it’s a strategy to excuse losing them.
It’s not “left” voters saying they will stay home, not in significant numbers. It’s Muslim voters or, more precisely, it’s voters who know the names of the people being systematically slaughtered with US weapons. While I agree that voting Democrat is the best bad option for Palestinians, I can’t get behind shaming someone for not voting to elect someone unrepentantly responsible for blowing up their loved ones. If they can’t stomach voting for Harris, I don’t blame them.
Yeah, super ignorant take that purported lefties on Lemmy are playing spoiler under the guise of condemning genocide.
The post was for astroturfing fucks on Lemmy. Way to miss the point.
There are a bunch of “leftists” on lemmy arguing till the cows come home that leftists mustn’t vote for the Democrats on the grounds that Kamala Harris is personally responsible for genocide in Gaza, who are able to both-sides any and every criticism of the Republicans. They advocate not voting and voting third parties, anything, really, as long as anyone with a conscience over Gaza excludes themselves from affecting whether Kamala Harris or Donald Trump becomes president. They argue that losing to the right wingers will push them left, but I think it’ll drag them to the right where the votes are, and that if you withhold your vote when the alternative is someone who promised to be dictator on day one (and more recently says he’ll send the military to deal with “the enemy within”, which is apparently left wing folk), your vote isn’t winnable anyway and you’ve excluded yourself from the very effect on voting you claim to be having, but none of that makes any difference to the people calling themselves leftists who want trump to win.
When the election is over, what will you call people who don’t want the US to support genocide when you can’t call them all trumpers?
This dumb fuck is gaining in the polls.
I just…can’t anymore
Keep in mind that the polls right now are also being flooded with right wing aligned groups
Yeah, polls much like any mathematics based discipline are susceptible to garbage in garbage out. You can have the perfect model but if the raw data put into it is shit then all youll get out of it is shit.
Fuck Netanyahu.
and fuck Donald Trump.
Oh, Netty is taking care of that for you.
Trump wants, and largely has, the “Nuke 'em all and let God sort 'em out!” vote.
And yet, if comments on this site are to be believed, he’s still also getting the, “We refuse to vote Democrat because we’re against the genocide!” crowd (sorry guys, but not voting or voting third party is a vote for Trump. You cannot escape it).
True. I think it’s more about whether Harris can pull in the “genocide bad” folks, or loses them to third-party protest votes. Of course if any of those folks were paying attention to the crap coming out of Trump’s mouth, they’d understand how much worse Trump will be. I had folks (hexbear and .ml of course) on a different post telling me that not only would Harris and Trump be the same on this, but that Harris would actually be worse. And of course they’re willfully ignoring how bad Trump would be on everything else.
I have a suspicion that part of what’s pushing Harris’ campaign strategy right now to focus on courting more “centrists” is that they know whatever she did to appeal to the left that’s not voting for her would never be enough to satisfy them. Far easier to court the middle with straightforward messaging than to appeal to a voting bloc that is already determined to hate anyone that’s not as chaotic as they are.
True. I think it’s more about whether Harris can pull in the “genocide bad” folks
I haven’t seen her try. Have you?
Like clockwork…
I almost feel powerful due to my ability to summon them.
Hey, at least she has you “genocide good” folks on lock.
Yeah dude, that’s what we are. Go fuck yourself.
That’s not what you are. It’s ALL you are. When you support genocide, it defines everything about you as a person.
Thanks for proving my point.
Not that you’ll read it, but I think this might help explain:
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2024/09/kamala-harris-israel-policy-palestine-gaza-war.html
Perhaps Harris’ loudest statement, however, was prefaced by her absence. Shortly after getting the nod from Biden in July, Harris snubbed Netanyahu, skipping his speech to Congress. (She spoke to a Black sorority, instead.) The next day, she met privately with him—later describing their talk as “frank and productive,” words that your boss might use after a performance review goes poorly.
The reaction to her remarks was underwhelming at the time, but the remarks themselves were extraordinary. “We cannot allow ourselves to become numb to the suffering” of Palestinians in Gaza, “and I will not be silent,” she told reporters and cameras. “Israel has a right to defend itself—but how it does so matters.” It was as close as a sitting vice president could possibly come to reading Netanyahu for filth without creating a diplomatic crisis.
Her messaging regarding unconditional support for the genocide all centrists love is more convincing than subtle hints that slate has to speculate about.
A nuanced take as always /s
Did you even get to the end of the article or did you just read the headline?
Harris has very little room to maneuver, however, without losing a huge part of her base and the party machinery that are still deeply attached to Israel. There is only so much a candidate and sitting vice president can do or say to break with the position held by her staunchly Zionist president, a Democratic establishment beholden to the pro-Israel lobby and AIPAC, and a broad swath of her liberal base that strongly supports Israel and its war. If she’s serious about getting elected, she has to withhold the kind of unambiguous statement—or action—that pro-Palestine activists demand. So she’s reduced to tone of voice, oblique gestures, a message hidden between the lines.
Did you even get to the end of the article or did you just read the headline?
I read the article. I don’t buy excuses and apologia when we’re talking about literal genocide. I also regard with earned disgust anyone who makes such excuses.
The whole “she absolutely can’t differ from Biden in any way except for these subtle hints we speculate about” thing is garbage. She’s not the secretary of state. She’s not running everything behind the scenes like Dick Cheney, though she seems to have garnered his approval, and it speaks volumes that centrists were so goddamned happy about his endorsement. In any event, she is free to differ on foreign policy and chooses not to.
I’m still voting for her. I’m going to be at the polls this coming Monday, which is when early voting opens here in Texas. I have every right to criticize her for supporting Netanyahu’s genocide, even if Netanyahu’s apologists want me to buy that she has shown any opposition whatsoever to the only policy centrists seriously hold.
Okay, let’s play this out. What exactly do you want her to say? Specifically. Because it’s not like as VP she can do anything about it directly. So this is just going to be a statement, right?
Let’s say as part of that statement, she says Israel should get no more aid. That would be the crux of it, correct? And Biden then has to come out and say, that’s not happening while I’m President. Factions within the Democrats withdraw funding and support from her campaign. And the Iranians start actually drooling about being able to basically act unopposed. Hezbollah gets some shiny new missiles to kill more civilians. Centrists withdraw support from Harris and more than likely sit out the election, though a few may move over to Trump. November 6 rolls around and Trump wins, the region is even more of a shitshow than it is now, and just as important, Palestinians will still be dying. And under Trump it will get much, much worse.
Or…she tries to thread a very small needle, gets elected, and can the come to the bargaining table as the newly sworn-in President. She still has to juggle a bunch of different interests, but as President she has the power to do more than make statements and has quite a bit of latitude when it comes to foreign policy. Harris wouldn’t have been my top choice, or even in my top 5, but I can honestly say I can’t believe she won’t make saving Palestinian lives a priority, unlike Biden. But she can’t do it as a candidate.
“He’s doing a good job,”
thanks, Hitler
it’s quite different from Trump’s bombastic rhetoric: He has repeatedly said that Israel has to “finish the job.” The former president’s Friday comments appear to be an attempt to paint Biden, and by extension, Harris, as being less supportive of Israel than him
Trump wants genocide escalated and completed on a faster timetable. If you don’t think that includes the West Bank in the long-term plan, you’re being naive.
Biden is trying to get a ceasefire deal from a madman. Harris needs to win the election and can’t if Israel turns against her. Trump actively wants to commit accelerated genocide on Palestinians.
Anyone who is pro-Palestinian and is thinking about voting for Trump needs to be aware of the long-term consequences.
Biden is not trying to get a ceasefire deal from Netanyahu. If you are a parent and your kid is stabbing people, the way to go about it is not to say “please stop” and then hand them another knife.
Biden wants this to continue. The rest is rhetoric to make it look different. But every single supposed red line was crossed by Israel. Every time Biden said something bad about Netanyahu, he continued the arms shipments and reiterated how Israel is just defending itself hurr durr.
Now the US stationed some more soldiers in Israel to create a probable reason to escalate to war with Iran. Harris has reiterated that she stands by the side of Israel.
Meanwhile US law prohibits sending weapons to countries that hinder US aid, which is evident with Israel. The Biden admin is breaking US law. They could have stopped the weapons deliveries and they could have went on to let the legal system go rampage on the Reps still pushing for it.
They could have created the political situation to have decided the election in their favor many months ago. But they would rather have Trump take presidency again, than to stop Israel murdering more Arabs.
Anyone who is pro-Palestinian and is thinking about voting for Trump needs to be aware of the long-term consequences.
*Anyone who is pro-Palestine and is thinking about not voting or voting for anyone other than Harris, just to be clear.
The foundational lesson of the trolley problem is not about the effects of the two options, it’s that not pulling the lever is a choice too.
Third-party voters, I know the psychological reaction to being told you “have to” vote for Harris causes you to dig in further, to be more contrarian. I know the feeling. So to be clear, you don’t have to do anything. But we can’t escape the ethical and moral effects of a choice not to mitigate harm. The dominos are lined up, pushing the one that says “Stein” or “No choice” will cause the one that says “Trump” to fall, it’s as simple as that. Our moral culpability doesn’t end at the ballot box, it ends at the end of rational foreseeability.
The right takes an oversimplified view of reality to avoid confronting complicated truths. Don’t be the same by thinking if we ignore a difficult moral choice, it goes away. Trump is telling you what he plans to do. Stopping him is a moral imperative if you want to save as much life as possible.
People not voting bcoz of Gaza are fools bcoz that genocide will continue immatter of who is in the white house. US support will continue.
Biden’s actions have shown there is no restraints, so has Harris’s. I am not believing anything Trump is saying.
People not voting bcoz [sic] of Gaza are fools bcoz [sic] that genocide will continue immatter [sic] of who is in the white house. US support will continue.
Eh… maybe.
Biden’s actions have shown there is no restraints, so has Harris’s. I am not believing anything Trump is saying.
Fucking what? Why would you not believe Trump when he says that he thinks Biden is too tough on Netanyahu. Please, tell me how you think it would make sense to lie about that. I’m actually kind of curious about the logic here.
You think Trump is lying? You think he believes that Biden hasn’t been hard enough on Netanyahu, but he lied about it for… reasons?
What goes on in your head?
From a purely strategic perspective, is this wise of Trump?
My impression is that even many American Jewish people don’t like Netanyahu. And he doesn’t need to remind anti-Harris protest voters that he’s even more anti Palestine. Many MAGA diehards don’t even like Netanyahu.
Like… who is he appealing to? Older Republicans, I guess, who remember Israel’s early days?
He’s appealing to people that hate Muslims.
And people who think the rapture starts with a holy war in Jerusalem.
The “left behind” Christians, who want nothing more than Armageddon.
Literally Armageddon.
Occam’s razor…
He’s appealing to himself
Fascist thinks fellow fascist should be free to do genocide faster and harder!
If he can keep steady poll numbers after an insurrection, my guess is that this won’t impact him at all.
Polling doesn’t capture turnout changes. This is the kind of thing that’s largest effect, if materialized, would be boosting dem turnout
Depends on the poll. State by state polls absolutely sample likely voters (aka, people who plan to turn out). Moreover, they use past polling and election data to inflate or deflate turnout likelihood if a consistent gaps exists between what a cohort historically says and what a cohort historically does.
They don’t easily capture changes to turnout between election cycles is my point. They rely on assumptions of what turnout will look like to weight their polling
The best proxy is voter enthusiasm, but its not perfect
Yeah, but most elections these days generally fall within the margins of polls. The historical trend data is generally doing a decent job of predicting future behavior.
IMHO, the bigger issue is that some races are so tight that they can’t be reliably predicted. The winner is buried within the margin of error.
Oh, I don’t think there’s any political calculation to 99% of what Trump says anymore. This is more about how much he likes “strongmen”. Hell, lots of folks in Israel don’t even like Netanyahu anymore.
Hell, lots of folks in Israel don’t even like Netanyahu anymore.
Apparently he’s reasonably popular?
His polls have recently somewhat approved, but are still down from where they were historically. Earlier this year they were absolutely abysmal so the bar was on the floor for them to be seen as “on the rise”
According to an earlier poll conducted by Israel’s Channel 12 on July 13, 70% of Israelis supported Netanyahu’s dismissal, while 44% demanded his immediate resignation.
Another poll conducted on April 12 showed that 35% of Israelis supported Netanyahu.
It’s one of the reasons he has been stalling on ceasefire talks - the war is the only thing keeping him in power.
It’s one of the reasons he has been stalling on ceasefire talks - the war is the only thing keeping him in power.
I may be wrong about this, but I think I remember reading something last year about him being in legal trouble but there’s a law that stops him from being prosecuted if the country is involved in “military operations?”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trial_of_Benjamin_Netanyahu
The prosecution rested in June 2024. The schedule for the testimony of witnesses for the defense is scheduled to be determined on July 9, 2024.
Certainly guessing they’re trying to delay as much as possible.
July 9, 2024.
Hmmm… I’m no calendarologist but it seems to me that October is after July…
Thanks for the link! They didn’t mention anything about the law I thought existed so I guess that’s not a thing.
Yeah, this trial has been going on forever. Looks like he has to testify in early December (his lawyers had wanted to push off until March next year)
This is an archive of the best article I could find - basically his lawyers had used the war as an excuse for the delay, but that didn’t fly.
He’s apppealing to the evil people. The ones that want to watch the world burn, or are too stupid to understand the consequences of radical global actions.
His followers will believe whatever Trump says, and whatever Trump says is what they’ve always believed, even if they didn’t.
even many American Jewish people don’t like Netanyahu
The may not like Netanyahu but they’re quite alarmed by what they see on the left side of the Democratic party. If they’re concerned that Harris will be influenced by the left, either due to personal sympathy or political considerations, then Trump does have some appeal since he’s making it quite clear that he’s definitely not like that.
Oh no equality and empathy how could she
You mean the anti-genocide protestors that were never voting for Trump? Like the ones that decided to vote for an actually progressive candidate?
Like the ones that decided to vote for an actually progressive candidate?
Aka vote for Trump.
I’m normally quite pro-third party and pro-progressive, but this is not the time.
It will never be the time. You think the next Republican won’t be even worse?
Lesser evilism is the perfect way to get you to vote for them every single election. You will never vote for a different party.
So you turned into a pro-genocide Republican?
…No? If I protest vote against Harris, I help vote Trump into office on razor thin margins, who is even more pro genocide.
Again, I’m normally quick to vote third party or protest vote, but this is not the time.
You support genocide cause you’re scared? I wonder if Palestinians are scared.
Go home, propaganda.
What did I say that was propaganda? I have another question… Are you in a cult?
I refer you to my previous comment.
Harris saying she’ll fund genocide isn’t propaganda, but keep telling yourself whatever lies you need to hear to vote for her.
Harris has never supported the genocide, she supports an immediate cease fire and a two state solution which is the OPPOSITE of supporting the genocide:
March - https://www.npr.org/2024/03/04/1234822836/kamala-harris-benny-gantz-gaza-cease-fire-israel-hamas
July - https://www.politico.com/news/2024/07/25/harris-netanyahu-israel-cease-fire-00171315
There it is.
Yep, you’re ignoring the evidence and lying:
https://www.npr.org/2024/01/26/1227078791/icj-israel-genocide-gaza-palestinians-south-africa
Jill Stein, the progressive candidate that has dinner parties in Russia with Mike Flynn.
How many dinner parties are we talking about here and has anyone provided any actual evidence that she is secretly a Russian in disguise? There is evidence that Kamala has stated she’ll keep funding genocide though.
Once was enough for me to put her in the traitor column right with Flynn and the rest of the GOP. As for Palestine, aren’t you bored talking to me? I am with talking to you. I will keep supporting Genocide Joe through the end of his term, and I plan on casting my vote for Harris today.
Honestly, is there anyone alive today with more blood on their hands than Benjamin Netanyahu?
Bush is up there but if Netanyahu hasn’t already passed him, he definitely will as the genocide continues.
Trump’s response to covid. Putin’s entire career. Kim Jong Un’s slow starvation of his entire fucking nation. But Netanyahu is up there and we should stop letting him write our foreign policy.
don’t forget
MaoXi.sorry, Pooh bear.
Yeah, him too. But I’m not gonna minimize the perpetrator of an ongoing genocide either. Netanyahu is a piece of shit and we shouldn’t be supporting his genocide. No matter how much centrists want to. We should cease selling him weapons right now. Centrists might not get everything they want for the first time ever, but they can vote blue no matter who.
It’s sad to say, but yes. Gaza is a horrific tragedy, but it is an admittedly small corner of the world.
The Palestinian health ministry has reported 40,000+ Palestinian dead. Meanwhile, George W. Bush is responsible for the deaths of over a million Iraqis following his completely unnecessary invasion of Iraq. He’s still kicking, probably using some of that blood on his hands for the painting he does now.
Putin is also pulling comparable numbers as Bibi in Ukraine, though that conflict has been going on for a little bit longer than the one in Gaza. But that’s also not counting how many of his own men he sent to their deaths, which is estimated to be over 100,000.
Henry Kissinger would also be on this list but thankfully it’s been almost a year since his long-awaited demise.
And that’s really only looking at conflict. Not factoring in others who are responsible for large-scale humanitarian crises that may end up killing many more people just from disease or starvation.
The Palestinian health ministry has reported 40,000+ Palestinian dead.
That only counts people who get found, obviously it doesn’t count the tens of thousands who are dead or dying under the rubbel. The real number is probably an order of magnitude higher.
Not to detract from your point, but the real number of deaths in Gaza is estimated to be between 100-200 thousand.
Fair, and that’s also where things get muddy when trying to factor in the humanitarian crisis aspect into it all. Number of dead due to starvation, lack of medical care, preventable disease, and so on is impossibly hard to get an accurate number of.
I just feel like this is a story we’re going to keep hearing over and over, forever. Darfur yesterday, Gaza today, who is tomorrow?
Honestly, yeah. Whoever is running the genocide in Sudan, probably.
Currently this jolly fella
If you’re exceptionally fascist, Trump will allot you extra praise. This is earnest as well - it’s because he was mentored by a fascist type personality in Roy Cohn - and raised by a ruthless racist Capitalist in the form of his father who refused to rent his properties to black people (putting a ‘c’ on their applications to indicate they were people of color).
Every centrist agrees.
New Republic - News Source Context (Click to view Full Report)
Information for New Republic:
MBFC: Left - Credibility: High - Factual Reporting: High - United States of America
Wikipedia about this sourceSearch topics on Ground.News
https://newrepublic.com/post/187332/trump-biden-tough-netanyahu
